Education Reform

To save time, I am going to request that any time somone writes some sort of proposition that will REQUIRE money, that that someone ALSO write WHERE THAT MONEY IS SUPPOSED TO COME FROM.  Specifically, WHOSE MONEY WILL BE TAKEN AWAY?

It will save me from having to write the same question every time.

Namely:

WHO IS GOING TO PAY FOR ALL THIS STUFF?

Even IF you were correct (and for Pennsylvania, you are not, student tuition does NOT go to the state but stays at the University as a line item in their budget), you would STILL have to replace the revenue that was no longer being collected, OR cut costs from another program/s.

So, what means are you going to use to replace (low-ball State University figure) $5000 per student for 50,000 students…
TWO HUNDRED FIFTY MILLION DOLLARS, for ONE typical CHEAP state University.

This may be slightly off-topic, but I don’t like the fact that often-times, students are forced to take classes that they don’t really care for, just to get the degree that they want.  I personally have not gone past a high school level education (not counting the military) but my roommate has told me that that is how he is getting boned.  I guess it is just another method used by “the man” to suck more money out of America’s students…

Personally, I think that education is something that should be entitled to anyone, but as Jennifer said, you should at least have to meet a minimum standard.  It just pisses me off because it seems that colleges are run like businesses, with the interest of making money, instead of being run like ACTUAL SCHOOLS.

That being said, I have at times said that I think certain things (i.e. education, insurance, etc.) should be paid for by the state, just because I think everyone is entitled to them.

If you could make it work, More power to you.

I know I’m thinking of getting a degree (Mechanical Engineering and taking some business classes).

My Daughter, now 15, was NEVER taught, I before E except after C…… Reform HELL… Lets just teach them the basics!!! And what about the guy driving around Denver, with something about the Denver “Donkies” ( thats sarcastic lingo for BRONCOS. It should have been spelled “DONKEYS” :roll:) painted on his rear window? The City & County of Denver VOTED to RAISE taxes for a new stadium, yet voted down a tax increse (there’s a joke there… Spelling. Get it?) for the schools!!! :-o

I think education should be paid for by the state, no matter what level we’re talking about.  I mean, the focus here seems to be COLLEGE level education, but since you brought up the basics, then yeah, EVERY level of education should be covered.  I’m not trying to make a movie out of this idea, but it seems very unfortunate that some brilliant kid might miss out on an education, if only because he/she simply cannot afford it.  :roll:

…and for the record, while we’re on the subject, I don’t like the current educational system.  As far as I’m concerned, the only thing that matters is the ability to make a decent living. (and the military has helped me to reach this level)  After being able to make a decent living, a formal education doesn’t mean sh*t.  So, if I can make enough money to live comfortably, then I intend to learn whatever interests me by just buying books, and reading up on it myself.  :wink:

@AgentOrange:

…and for the record, while we’re on the subject, I don’t like the current educational system.  As far as I’m concerned, the only thing that matters is the ability to make a decent living. (and the military has helped me to reach this level)  After being able to make a decent living, a formal education doesn’t mean sh*t.  So, if I can make enough money to live comfortably, then I intend to learn whatever interests me by just buying books, and reading up on it myself.  :wink:

Citizens of the United States are raised on talk of “rights”.  Citizens have the “right” to free speech.  Citizens have the “right” to freedom of expression.  Citizens have the “right” to vote.

What citizens of the United States are NOT brought up on is talk of “duties”.  Citizens have a DUTY not to break the law.  Citizens have a DUTY to vote.  And so forth.

Basically, the attitude is that when you’re born in the United States, you are issued a license to be an ignorant asshole that can make demands of everyone else, but that can’t do anything for anyone else.  That is the NATURAL CONSEQUENCE of talking of “rights”, but NOT talking of “duties”.

So when I hear people talking about how they’re gonna fast-track education and cut out all the “unnecessary” subjects - well, really, the way I view it is that these courses are important to making you a productive citizen, so it is your DUTY to take these stupid courses that you don’t like.

Don’t agree?

If not, then I’m sure you will agree that black people as a whole are worthless, and that this so-called “Jewish Holocaust” during World War II never happened.  Oo, inflammatory statement, but remember I’m not doing that to attract flames, I’m pointing out what you learned in government, civics, and history classes.

@newpaintbrush:

Citizens of the United States are raised on talk of “rights”.  Citizens have the “right” to free speech.  Citizens have the “right” to freedom of expression.  Citizens have the “right” to vote.

What citizens of the United States are NOT brought up on is talk of “duties”.  Citizens have a DUTY not to break the law.  Citizens have a DUTY to vote.  And so forth.

Well said.

@newpaintbrush:

@AgentOrange:

…and for the record, while we’re on the subject, I don’t like the current educational system.  As far as I’m concerned, the only thing that matters is the ability to make a decent living. (and the military has helped me to reach this level)  After being able to make a decent living, a formal education doesn’t mean sh*t.  So, if I can make enough money to live comfortably, then I intend to learn whatever interests me by just buying books, and reading up on it myself.  :wink:

Citizens of the United States are raised on talk of “rights”.  Citizens have the “right” to free speech.  Citizens have the “right” to freedom of expression.  Citizens have the “right” to vote.

What citizens of the United States are NOT brought up on is talk of “duties”.  Citizens have a DUTY not to break the law.  Citizens have a DUTY to vote.  And so forth.

Basically, the attitude is that when you’re born in the United States, you are issued a license to be an ignorant a**hole that can make demands of everyone else, but that can’t do anything for anyone else.  That is the NATURAL CONSEQUENCE of talking of “rights”, but NOT talking of “duties”.

So when I hear people talking about how they’re gonna fast-track education and cut out all the “unnecessary” subjects - well, really, the way I view it is that these courses are important to making you a productive citizen, so it is your DUTY to take these stupid courses that you don’t like.

Don’t agree?

If not, then I’m sure you will agree that black people as a whole are worthless, and that this so-called “Jewish Holocaust” during World War II never happened.  Oo, inflammatory statement, but remember I’m not doing that to attract flames, I’m pointing out what you learned in government, civics, and history classes.

Well, I agree with everything you’ve said, except for the part about “fast-tracking” education. (and also the part about black people being worthless, and that the Holocaust never happened  :-P)  However, I do like what you have to say about duty, because you’re right; people always want to b*tch about their rights, but never bother to worry about their duties, i.e. we end up with citizens who are, subsequently, a bunch of whiny p**sies.  But anyway, as I said in my original post on this thread, I have not experienced this phenomenon first-hand, but that is what I’ve been told.  It just seems really silly (and in a capitalist system, quite greedy) to make it MANDATORY to take classes that have absolutely NOTHING to do with your major/degree.

haha hehe yeah…public school…hmmm where to begin…you have all mentioned topics which I deal with on a daily basis.

First… basics are necessary.  Background information has to be there before I can teach high level concepts such as the economic reasons for the fall of the USSR.  Right now, in MD, there is no social studies or history that HAS to be taught at the elementary level.  Students get to middle school without knowing how to read a map or have basic geography skills.  Then instead of learning basic history from which they can then examine closer, the county gives them the concentrated orange juice version of history packed full of lovely vocabulary that my 7th graders reading on a 4 grade reading level DON’T even understand.  These readings are incomplete views of history.  Entire subjects such as Christopher Columbus are SKIPPED…not played down in importance as might be needed but FORGOTTEN!  Mainstreaming is killing any attempt to teach to either low or high level students.  At best I can accomodate low and middle, or middle and high, which leaves either 1/3 (if i teach to the lower half) or 1/5-1/8 (if I teach to the high level students) screwed.  Which do you think happens more often?  YAY for making a difference!  County gives monthly tests to assess whether I am a good teacher or not…I will soon be rated based on student test performance as whether I am effective or not.  Student responsibility is not anywhere in the equation.  Curriculem is often written during the summer and is a way for “golden” teachers to show their “stuff.”  These stellar lessons are over lower students heads, and takes me 3 times the amount of time to teach.  By the end of a school year I can be a full unit behind.  Am I to teach, or talk and move on regardless of student’s actually learning.

Character Developement…mmm how nice it is to have so much power that the most I can do to a student is inconvience them.  Being told to F-off because I tell a student to be quiet.  “Get out of my face” when told to take their headphones off.  “Fag” when I tell them to stop rough housing.  Should a student decide to be the “class clown” and spread her legs and proceed to imitate sexual “activities” I am allowed to do all of the following 1.  call down to the office and have an administrator or the police officer escort her down. This can and often does not happen for 15-30 minutes.  2- do nothing and try to ignore it.  Perhaps I am lucky enough to have 3-4 of these types of students in my class.  Call parents…awesome if they would support us in agreeing that this behavior is acceptable…oh and if I can find a phone number to reach them at.  All of this comes at the expense of the rest of the children.  By the 8th grade the numbers get worse because students pick up on what they can get away with.  After all it makes the school look bad to suspend many students or expel them.  The alternative school has a size limit and the students are bound to come back.  Lets see the chances of the students getting into trouble when they do come back is kinda as similar to that of criminals commiting crime again.  Actually I would like to compare the two stats.  Students with IEPs (some sort of learning disibility) are only allowed to be suspended for 10 days…less it be guns or drugs.  So far I have been pushed intentionally by a student twice…hard enough to move me.  Teachers have been hit and grabbed.  Teaching please, this is not a movie, I have 130 students.  I spend 12-14 hours at school…most dealing with discipline.  Though it may sound odd but I do have most of the kids’ respect.  They eventually listen to me.  I can get most to do there work, but we are joking ourselves if we are saying I am saving any.  Maybe I am just not a good enough teacher.

Parents- if a school has no parents in the PTA and of the 30 students who are getting E’s in my class (which is very hard to due) none of the parents show up…there is a problem.  It is not at the state, county, or school.  It is with the family.  How would you propose I fix that.  Don’t say government should get involvedin raising the kids, cuz I am no babysitter.

Not all kids are college material, sorry some don’t like algebra.  Lets face it some are going to want to be electricians or something like that.  How about letting them choose those career paths a little bit earlier.  Give them…lets say…the basics…oh yeah…where do they get those.  Obviously not at elementary school cuz I have students who can’t remember to put their names on paper let alone where or to include more than their street nickname.

Maybe teachers are professionals.  Maybe some of us have gone to school for this.  Please, if I tell you your son or daughter is not doing their work…i “your not making it interesting enough” is NOT AN EXCUSE.  First, it is not practicable (yeah thats nowhere in public school) to make things interesting for all 130 students…second…you know maybe kids should just have to do what they are told.  I am a teacher…think I enjoyed school…wow no I didn’t.  Odd how I decided to punish myself.  Maybe that will be the punishment for Mr. “Your a Fag” or Mrs. “Get the F… out of my face.”  Perhaps I should not have to cross check a list of parents who threaten to beat the shit out of me before I do confrences for anything from grades to “my daughter will go to the bathroom whenever she wants” or “he will have his phone ON at all times.” In any other situation if a student were to step on a persons foot and then decides to tell the person who they stepped on “f*ck you get out of my way” they would have issues.  The most I can do is write an office referral to go into the magical filing cabinate.  Respect, oh what a lovely dream.

Crappy teachers need to go…good bye tenure.  Have teachers evaluate their own.  We know who is good and who is not.  The Union defends the wrong teachers…the ones who have been arrested for drug possession.  I am tired of going into other teachers classes to deal with discipline because they have yet to figure it out.  Oh and yes you do need to keep a gradebook.

Students fail…get over it.  Yes I know by now, with NCLB we just keep passing them on and on, so that if/when we do that we will retain high percentages of kids but nah lets paint over the mold and pretend its not there.  Yeah a kid can fail enlgish 4 years in a row and keep getting promoted because they only fail english but then we ask “why oh why can’t johnny spell cat?”  Then when they are in 10th grade and they have failed maybe 6 years of english yet they still take the 10th grade tests we are curious why they score “basic.”  Oh and all the politically correct words lets get rid of them.  Scoring basic, though it sounds good, is not…it means your stupid.  And glossing over facts because we don’t want to hurt their self esteem does them no good.  I will not lie…learning how to get my honest points across using political jargon makes me feel like some sort of vocabulary ninja working at a a japanese steak house cooking meals with only plastic straws and getting good reviews.  YAY me.  Lets stop lying to students.  Seperate them back into low, middle, and high levels so I can best address THEIR intellectual needs.

Hope someone has the balls to address the issues honestly…because the problems in my classroom will be on our streets.  You already see less concern about our communities, states, and overall country.  Already you are seeing overall less patriotism.  Less common decency.  The problems in school grow out of social problems.  And that reminds me similar conditions in another great superpower…Rome.  Cliche’ “Those who fail to learn from history are bound to repeat it.”

@newpaintbrush:

Basically, the attitude is that when you’re born in the United States, you are issued a license to be an ignorant a**hole that can make demands of everyone else, but that can’t do anything for anyone else.  That is the NATURAL CONSEQUENCE of talking of “rights”, but NOT talking of “duties”.

Civics class my senior year, the old guy at the front of the class made this same point.  I don’t know if it sunk in with the majority of my class mates but I have to give the retired Master Sargeant credit for trying.

Personally, I use my spare time to “teach” technology, team work and personal responsibility to small groups starting in 6th grade.  Somewhere along the way the kids seem to get it that science and engineering are good careers paths to pursue.

@Yemble:

Parents-

I imagine that you could have began and ended that long (and informative) essay with this single word.  Of course there are other problems (I share your view on NCLB), but the home environment probably makes the biggest impact here.

How do you feel on vouchers?

@Jennifer:

Well let’s remember the topic is on public universities “normal schools” as they were called.  Not elementary, middle or secondary institutions.  There’s a huge difference in what can and should be done.

However, we can easily cut funds to fund this program, if you live in a bass-ackwards state like Switch, that actually keeps tuition in their universities instead of plundering it for the state (and I’m calling him on it, I want souces and documentation to prove it, because no state leaves all the revenue a school makes in the school.)

1. Cut socialist funding
2. Cut communist funding
3. Slash public servant pay by 50% or more
4. Increase percentages of student loans for out of state students going to their schools
5. Increase fees and tuition on out of state students.

Any of those would more then pay for the program.  Hell, how do you fund elementary schools, middle schools and secondary schools?  Fund post-secondary universities the same way.

How would you react to a proposed:

6. Cut teacher and school administrator salaries by 50% and eliminate benefits.

@Jennifer:

…

1. Cut socialist funding
2. Cut communist funding
3. Slash public servant pay by 50% or more
   …

Please identify “socialist” and “communist” funding lines in a state government of your choice.

Please explain how cuting public servant pay by 50% will increase teacher retention when their pitiful salaries drop below minimum wage.

Just FYI:
Education spending in Pennsylvania is BY LAW 50% of all state expenditures (they they have found ways to depress that number down to about 42% and still technically obey the law).  At a local level it is an even higher percentage.

So, in order to get the most bang for your buck when you cut spending, you would have to cut education.  Start on the other stuff, and there goes your State Police, highways, fire departments, etc.  Not saying PA is completely efficient (far from it), but in terms of state level spending, to support free post-secondary education in one of the largest states in the union would mean stripping every non-education/non-law enforcement program in the state.

I-80 sucks already.  PLEASE do not take any more funding away from roads in Pennsylvania…  You need PA’s roads to carry the coal for your power plants…

@Baghdaddy:

@Jennifer:

…

1. Cut socialist funding
2. Cut communist funding
3. Slash public servant pay by 50% or more
   …

Please identify “socialist” and “communist” funding lines in a state government of your choice.

Please explain how cuting public servant pay by 50% will increase teacher retention when their pitiful salaries drop below minimum wage.

Lol she isn’t talking about teachers, I’m sure.