I didn’t relize slovakia wasn’t there, Excellent
Thank you for Siagon, THANK You. I think you’ll be happier with it.
Thanks for thr roads!
Splitting Philipines is a good Idea.
Give 1 anchor in each and an air base in the north. IMO
I thought the Barborossa was discussed just lazy, :(
Thats fine, I can always House rule East Poland to Russia from Germany, for a more diplomatic game.
I was hoping for a pre Barborossa post Blitzkrieg map, but this will work just fine.
Ocean Color Change Request:
Please remove some red from the ocean to make it look more blue. I printed the Positronica map, and didn’t realize how purple looking the ocean was until it printed. Examining the original ocean texture, I see a plenty of red. I think if the red is toned down, the ocean will look more blue, which may be more attractive.
Craig
My Map is perfect color wise. Sometimes it is just better to pay someone else to do it.
Craig Bee,
I don’t think you understand the magnitude of what you’re asking. The water is on the same layer as the land and wave effect. I played around with a few ideas but in the end I would have to cut out the water clean up the edges then reapply a new water layer. I would be happy to do it but that would just take way too much time.
Sorry for the inconvenience, try your local print shop (don’t go to kinkos, too expensive). Try to find a specialty shop they usually print for less.
In the interest of world peace and to get this project moving again I will adopt DH’s IPC system.
I still feel that the Convoy Box system Imperious suggested would be a good addition, but without support for it I am no longer going to argue.
But incase you have an open mind I have explained the concept in detail below.
CBs will remain where they are (they will not be removed from the map). They will work almost identical as in AAP in the fact that you can attack a CB which will cause the controlling player to lose money. The difference is that this attack reduces the player’s current available income.
Example: It is the German’s turn and they choose to attack the Soviet CB in the North Atlantic. After winning the attack (if enemy units were present) the Soviet player returns IPCs from his hand back to the bank in effect reducing his available income for his next purchase phase.
I’m sure you asking well how much does the Soviet player return. Well that still needs to be decided.
Imperious suggested a dynamic system where the attacking player rolls a dice and that is the amount the player loses. This adds a bit of variability to it which I fell represents a convoy attack better, i.e. sometimes you get two ships other times you might get three or more. I would say that a minimum number is need such as 2 + d6 that way the minimum result is a 3 (cost of a trooper) instead of the possibility of an attack resulting in just 1 IPC lose.
OR
We can use the fixed numbers on the convoy boxes and that is the amount lost, period.
I would also say a CB can only be attacked once per Nation per turn.
I feel this represents convoy boxes better and removes the feeling of double dipping and allows the CB attack to have an immediate affect.
DH,
Issue! There are no current territories that have 10 IPCs.
I could create one but it most likely won’t match.
I will try a few things and let you know. In the mean time you might want to reevaluate anything above an 8.
Also,
I have looked at your US numbers and they don’t add up.
Are you aware that currently the US CBs add up to 23 not 15?
Ok on the convoy box thing… i think they should be treated just like AAE and represent the idea that British and Japanese ( and in some cases American) goods and imports from colonies and trading partners.
I do know that about 1/3 of all British economy was dependant on imports. So i think that would be a decent total for all the convoy boxes.
American imports would be no more than 3 boxes total and not more than 5-10 % of total income
Japan imports would be close to 40% of total Japanese income in boxes. They had to get basically everything from lands separated by oceans.
I would copy AAE and AAP for placements and add UK CB in indian ocean, cape horn, and south atlantic
American boxes in gulf of mexico, near samoa,by alaska, by panama, and between Hawaii and west coast, and by new york
DH,
Issue! There are no current territories that have 10 IPCs.
I could create one but it most likely won’t match.
I will try a few things and let you know. In the mean time you might want to reevaluate anything above an 8.
Also,
I have looked at your US numbers and they don’t add up.
Are you aware that currently the US CBs add up to 23 not 15?
I will take a look at my figures, I may have mistyped something, From memory US has 4 CB’s correct, 2 atlantic 2 pacific
Ocean Color Change Request:
Please remove some red from the ocean to make it look more blue. I printed the Positronica map, and didn’t realize how purple looking the ocean was until it printed. Examining the original ocean texture, I see a plenty of red. I think if the red is toned down, the ocean will look more blue, which may be more attractive.
Craig
the red is from the blood man….
In the interest of world peace and to get this project moving again I will adopt DH’s IPC system.
I still feel that the Convoy Box system Imperious suggested would be a good addition, but without support for it I am no longer going to argue.
if you want support of the IPC system, i will lend mine to it. i like the dynamic system IL lists and that in doing so, they are NOT added into the totals for the countries, only to taken away from. –-which is opposite of DH’s ipc system.
In the interest of world peace and to get this project moving again I will adopt DH’s IPC system.
If this is the way you are heading….
Then I would pose a question:
Is this possibly right?
@Deaths:
MY next Installment
UK=75 IPC’s
How could UK have 75 when USA has 75?
@Deaths:
United States= 75 IPC’s + China’s 10
I don’t like the idea of the Allies having such a vast lead in production over the Axis for sake of balance in game play, but it at least bears out historically, and when you put initial placements into it this can help as long as the Axis stays the aggressors that historically they were.
BUT
there is nothing that I know of historically that would lead me to believe that UK should be anywhere near the US level in 1941 for production.
I believe it was IL who has previously mentioned Mark Harrison’s work on WW2 in regards knowledge–here i found a table pulled from Harrison’s book “Economics of World War 2”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_production_during_World_War_II
It has, in billions, the GDP of countries. in 1941 Germany had 412, with Austria and France added into Germany at 29 and 130 respectively, giving a total of 551. The UK at the time had 344. Now, I’m willing to bet that this isn’t including all the production of India and Austraila, though for France I bet it includes all the French colonies in Africa, so perhaps it does include some of the UK colonies.
And I would find it hard to believe that the economies of Austraila and India really would have ballooned the UK much farther up.
Oh, and what it says for the US in 1941–1,094–Three times as much as the UK and over twice that of Germany. Italy is even listed at 144, which is slightly less than half of the UK.
The point here being that the UK at 75 and Germany at 54 is a turnaround from history and IMHO is not good for balance and gameplay. So what if UK gets smashed in Round 1, they have to if the Axis has any hope, and they have this behemoth of the USA to rescue them.
Berlin circle is great, leave it in, just put a factory north at the coast too for ship building. No big deal.
I have used Harrison’s information for a long time.
I see that 50% of england’s income came from her colonies so it can be reasoned that 50% of the total income should be represented in convoy boxes that can be attacked by axis. Of course this has got to be balanced for the game.
Japan is in a similar position.
a basic rule is to count all the detached territory’s with IPC value and that becomes the basis for CB. That would be a self correcting measure for the variant.
UK’s income is all of her colonies around the world put together. So in Retrospect England has to control literally Half of the world to be at the same level as the US. If you look at the map they do control half of the world in total Square miles under 1 Flag.
The US achieves this total because that’s the way it was.
For England to be a playable country in this game they need a large starting income. England will find themselves short of cash real fast and out of the game.
As for Germany’s 54 IPC’s, don’t forget Italy’s additional 25. Italy is a new country to this game and they took over what used to be German Territories in past games. So GE income before I adjusted it was set at 74(Italy included) Italy also has the opportunity to make alot of cash fast if they sweep through Afrika and let the Germans Concentrate on the European and Russian fronts. Italy can realistically reach the 35-45 IPC range easily.
The allies did have a vast production rate over the Axis. The Axis start the game out Military power houses. LOTS of units.
As for the economies of Australia and India It wasn’t there per capita but there Natural Resources that boost the UK economy. Don’t forget about all that middle Eastern Oil they control also. :)
DB- As for my total for the US, Adjust what ever territories you find appropriate to reach a US IPC level of 75 plus China’s 10 for a total of 85.
Quick question: does the map posted on 15 June include the most up-to-date numbers for IPC values? I’m probably going to start putting the numbers on my hand-drawn 1940 map this weekend, and since it’s based on this map I’d like to have the best possible starting point for those values.
Thanks!
-M8B
LMFAO!!! I love the fact that basically everybody is making maps… hundreds of them… you join this site and somehow you end up making maps… people show up and are making maps…a guy just joins and starts making maps… lol what the heck! :mrgreen:
@Imperious:
LMFAO!!! I love the fact that basically everybody is making maps… hundreds of them… you join this site and somehow you end up making maps… people show up and are making maps…a guy just joins and starts making maps… lol what the heck! :mrgreen:
In my case it was my making a map that brought me here. :lol:
One of the reasons I joined these forums was to see peoples ideas for maps, since me and my friends are looking to either make a Market Garden game (similar to axis and allies) or a NATO/Warsaw Pact (hex based) game. Im also kind of interested in the Suez Crisis and what it would have led to if the US hadnt intervened, but Russian intervention in that situation feels like it wouldve caused problems in europe too, but I guess the Suez game could be made while still assuming a war happens in Europe off of the map.
Okay im sidetracking now. :-P
we should rename this place:
Axis and Allies Map design.org
Most definitely.
While we’re on the topic of game design, does anybody know of a place that would make cardboard counters?
Also, how would one go about making a hex map or getting a sort of hex overlay?
@Deaths:
UK’s income is all of her colonies around the world put together. So in Retrospect England has to control literally Half of the world to be at the same level as the US. If you look at the map they do control half of the world in total Square miles under 1 Flag.
The US achieves this total because that’s the way it was.
For England to be a playable country in this game they need a large starting income. England will find themselves short of cash real fast and out of the game.
As for Germany’s 54 IPC’s, don’t forget Italy’s additional 25. Italy is a new country to this game and they took over what used to be German Territories in past games. So GE income before I adjusted it was set at 74(Italy included) Italy also has the opportunity to make alot of cash fast if they sweep through Afrika and let the Germans Concentrate on the European and Russian fronts. Italy can realistically reach the 35-45 IPC range easily.
The allies did have a vast production rate over the Axis. The Axis start the game out Military power houses. LOTS of units.
As for the economies of Australia and India It wasn’t there per capita but there Natural Resources that boost the UK economy. Don’t forget about all that middle Eastern Oil they control also. :)
DB- As for my total for the US, Adjust what ever territories you find appropriate to reach a US IPC level of 75 plus China’s 10 for a total of 85.
Since when does square mileage equal production? Africa is bigger than Europe, and the UK controlled the majority of colonies there, yet that continent is worth only a fraction of Europe? Heck, South America is close to Africa in IPCs.
The US acheived it’s total is because of it’s large production abilities, that’s the way it was.
I beg to differ on what makes the UK playable in this game. In my recollection, there is not one, (1) A/A game where the UK has the largest production of any nation. And yet they seem to be playable in each and every version of the game. The problem that the UK has in the world conflict games is that it must choose how to place forces in each theatre, if at all. They don’t get to have their cake and eat it too. Even the US doesn’t get the material ability to fight a full scale war in each front, or for that matter not even Germany–if they did, we’d likely be speaking German.
Oh yeah, don’t forget Italy, and those vast stacks of 25 IPCs, which as you pointed out, still is less than the UK…? Again, how can that work historically or balance wise? I think you want too much from the UK. This is a country that in 41 was getting slobbernockered by Germany and was not the war machine that you want them to be here. And how does one sweep through Africa? It takes about 6 turns to get across it, taking 1-2 ipcs a turn, so the UK has what, 75, 73, 71, 69, 67 (oh hey, and here comes the overwhelming landings of the Americans into Normandy, if the british don’t get there by round 3). 10 ipcs from the UK to Italy in Africa does not give them the chance you seem to be thinking. Right, right, right, the UK would have less if attacked from different places at the same time, but If I was the UK and had 75, 70, 60 ipcs for the first three turns, I am landing in Western Europe and with Russia banging through Poland, I don’t care about Africa.
Austraila announced in Dec. '41 that they looked to America for their hope and India didn’t even declare their support for the UK’s war until the end of the year.
The natural resources of India and Austraila are nice and all, but did they have the people and the transport lanes to move enough to reach 75 in this game? No, if that were the case Africa would be worth more than anything. There are more natural resources untouched there than anywhere else in the world.
Regarding the natural resources of India:
With the massive demands of manpower for the British Indian Army fighting in European, African and Burmese theaters of war there was a shortage of able bodied men for agriculture. Further military restrictions (The British were afraid Bengali plains might fall into Japanese hands and prevented cultivation of border areas and also moved all rice stocks back towards Calcutta) as well as forced procurement of rice for the war effort in Europe led to sever food shortages culminating in the Bengal famine in 1942 in which an estimated 3 million to 7 million Indians are said to have perished. At the time this famine was considered as bad an atrocity as the Germans starvation of the Polish Jews and was in purely numerical terms a much larger catastrophe. It has been found that a number of images found in holocaust museums around the world as pictures of people starved to the bone are actually mislabeled photographs of Bengali civilians under British rule. In recent years the famine has been explained as a combination of a natural drought as well as the military restrictions but reliable records of whether there was any natural element to the famine are not be found.
With the British recruiting Indian soldiers in large numbers as well as the Japanese recruiting Indian expatriates into the Indian National Army (INA) a state of civil war existed on the east Indian border with Indians killing Indians. This in turn led to civilians who supported either the British or the INA rioting against each other.
from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Home_front_during_World_War_II and several books cited below above paragraph for sources.
you can also look at this page (mentioned previous post from Mark Harrion’s book) about production of munitions and fighting equipment, but I’ll post the real meat here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_production_during_World_War_II
Artillery Production:
United States = 257,390
Germany = 159,147
United Kingdom = 124,877
Canada = 10,552
Other Commonwealth = 5,215
Mortars (over 60 mm)
United States = 105,050
United Kingdom = 102,950
Germany = 73,484
Commonwealth = 46,014
Machineguns
United States = 2,679,840
Germany = 674,280
United Kingdom = 297,336
Canada = 251,925
Other Commonwealth = 37,983
Military Aircraft
United States = 324,750
Germany = 189,307
United Kingdom = 131,549
Canada = 16,431
Other Commonwealth = 3,081
Coal-millions of metric tons
Germany = 2,420.3
United States = 2,149.7
United Kingdom = 1,441.2
Canada = 101.9
Iron Ore
United States = 396.9
Germany = 240.7
United Kingdom = 119.3
Canada = 3.6
Crude Oil
United States = 833.2
United Kingdom = 90.8
Germany = 33.4 (including 23.4 synthetic)
Canada = 8.4
Note, Commonwealth would include India and Austraila, so unless that smaller amount of people had some incredible work ethic to produce, they just did not make that much. And those figures do not include Italy, nor Romania, Poland or Hungary for Germany.
