@crockett36
This seems interesting. I’ll try it out.
[Global 1940] How to make cruisers and battleships work?
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In AndrewAAGamer’s Warfare Principles of Axis and Allies, he mentions how battleships and cruisers are useless. While I’m not sure how he got those calculations, my own research confirms this:
https://www.axisandallies.org/forums/topic/39439/so-i-ve-been-playing-with-the-battle-calculator/1
Yet in World War 2 they had a purpose. So what can be done to make these units work.
To be honest though the role of cruisers in World War 2 was quite blurry. Cruisers were mainly designed for countering other cruisers, begging the question what are they suppsoed to do in the first place?
These are the traditional uses of a cruiser:
- Scout ahead of the fleet.
- Deploy in far off places for extended amounts of time for commerce raiding.
- Protect convoys from other cruisers commerce raiding because of 2.
In World War 2 (and now as well), the scouting role has been mostly taken up by air raft (in World War 2 aircraft weren’t always available and definitely weren’t in bad weather), convoy protection was entrusted to destroyers, and commerce raiding was given to aircraft and submarines.
This leads to the main purpose of the cruiser in World War 2:
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Act as command ships for destroyer formations (like the Soviet Leningrad class, most Japanese light cruisers, and the initial purpose of the Atlanta class).
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Overmatch enemy destroyers and (in the case of heavy cruisers) light cruisers. Battleships are expensive and overkill in such situations.
The problem with the two above is that 1 is tactical (maybe we can give them a modification where a cruiser-destroyer pair gives a combat bonus), and 2 is supposed to have been done, so cruisers are more powerful than destroyers.
The problem seems to be that cruisers are not cost effective enough.
Two options are either to:
- Decrease the cruiser price to make them more economical than destroyers in sea combat (destroyers will still have a purpose as being cheaper overall and as anti submarine platforms).
- Split the designation into light and heavy cruisers, two different units. Perhaps there can be a collaboration bonus in naval combat when light cruisers and destroyers work together. The costs, attack, and defence values should make them more economical than destroyers.
Most battleships in World War 2 started being built before the aircraft carrier proved itself and were too far along in construction to cancel. This left them with the following purposes:
- Bombard shores.
- Counter other battleships.
- Give extra anti-aircraft defence for carriers.
- Be a fleet in being and tie up enemy ships like Tirpitz did.
These are all not really special attributes though. Overall, all that can be done is to make the ship more cost effective than destroyers or cruisers.
Sort of like different subscription tiers. The more expensive, the more cost efficient.
I would like to hear your ideas. What so you think? I’d like to hear from you!
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This idea has been floated before, and a good summary can be found here
https://www.axisandallies.org/forums/topic/26862/cruiser-reworkBut for my $0.02, I actually think the game is more historically accurate in its treatment of these units. Certain countries started with a set number of these ships, but the power of the carrier and fighters quickly demonstrated that the battleship (and its smaller cousin the cruiser) were antiquated weapon platforms, and thus minimal resources were spent to acquire new BBs and CAs relative to other ships and airplanes.
Everyone will point to Pearl Harbor and Midway as prime examples of the importance of naval air over ships. But one of the first real tests was the attempted resupply of Malta during 1941-42. The British had many surface vessels and needed to get supplies to Malta, but the German and Italian airforces made this extremely costly to the point they had to give up trying to escort the convoys with BB, DD, and CA ships. Even single carriers were not enough.
Thus, although I agree the cost for these units is too high to make them useful for the game, this cost reflects the changing trends of naval warfare in WW2. There was little use for them in the actual war except shore bombardment. G40 is not really designed to recreate massive island amphibious assaults like Guadalcanal or Iwo Jima, where prolonged shore bombardment is important. Islands are rarely populated with more than 2 inf and thus 1 bombard shot with BB is appropriate.
Alternatively, if you want to modify these units to make them useful in G40 and throw out the historical aspect, then the links above introduce several house rules that would allow these ships to fill some niche roles. The AAA Cruiser is probable fit for an new useful unit IMHO.
Cheers
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True. Cruisers were widely used, successful, and continually built throughout the war so those ships should be at least made useful.
The problem with battleships extends further to how Axis and Allies works. Ships just come out. No shipbuilding or stages needed.
A good idea would be for a ship to be laid down and it would take several turns for the ship to be built and paid incrementally for, like stages. Some ships will take longer than others to build.
A more sophisticated rule will allow players to dedicate extra IPCs to speed construction (with increasing costs for each stage completed in the same turn and a cap on how many stages can be completed in a turn) and scrapping.
If shipbuilding stages were done like above I would suggest keeping the battleship as is and have multiple battleships under construction at the start of the game.
Otherwise the battleships will need to be made more useful like above to represent an Iowa class not in the game.
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P Panther moved this topic from Axis & Allies Global 1940 on
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@superbattleshipyamato Great assessment.
Currently, the rules for all versions don’t incentivize Cruiser purchases.
A simple specialization might change this. Make Cruisers the equivalent of land-based AAA units. That is, a one-shot, pre-battle, aircraft defensive roll of 1 to hit aircraft only. Same rules as AAA. 1 unit=3 max. rolls.Only usable while the Defender.
Thoughts?
Troy
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Possible.
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@Ritterkrieg said in [Global 1940] How to make cruisers and battleships work?:
@superbattleshipyamato Great assessment.
Currently, the rules for all versions don’t incentivize Cruiser purchases.
A simple specialization might change this. Make Cruisers the equivalent of land-based AAA units. That is, a one-shot, pre-battle, aircraft defensive roll of 1 to hit aircraft only. Same rules as AAA. 1 unit=3 max. rolls.Only usable while the Defender.
Thoughts?
Troy
Hi everyone!
It’s been a while since I had focused on A&A.On my next occasion,
I intend to use a combined arms for my 12 IPCs Cruiser Moving 3(4), and AA platform.
Same rule as an AAA (up to 3@1) for both offense and defense. Need to be paired 1:1 to either Carrier or Battleship to be activate.Do you see any issue about attacking Cruiser with AA capacities when paired with 1 capital ship?
Also, for 20 IPCs Battleship Moving 2(3), I intend to tweak the shore bombardment to be 2@4, if at least 2 units are landing.
In addition, a naval combat would nullify only 1 roll @4.
Exception, if the Battleship was damaged in the previous naval battle, she cannot perform any shore bombardment.
Do you think it might be enough to help them be part of the naval purchase?For M3 Cruiser, I also intend to provide +1M for 1 Transport or 1 Destroyer when paired 1:1 with.
So, at a Naval Base, 1 Cruiser & 1 Destroyer can move up to 4 SZs together. Same for 1 Transport with 1 Cruiser.That way, pairing Cruiser with small or capital warships, will bring interesting tactical options, don’t you think?
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Good ideas! Hopefully it’ll be coded into TripleA.
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@SuperbattleshipYamato
Shorebombardment mecanic is probably hardcoded into TripleA.
However, it is certainly possible to adjust first strike AA phase. But, I’m not sure it is easy to add a combined arms with it.Another way to improve Battleship drastically over 2-hits Carriers can also to implement 1942.2 2-hits Battleship, which auto-repair after combat.
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Thanks for telling me. I’ll try it sometime.
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