How do you respond as UK to this german first turn?

Thank you Squire.

NOW at least the move makes a little sense, especially with the note about GenCon scoring.

Personally, I still think it is sub optimal for several reasons…
Using fleet to attack rather than defend (as it can if it just stays in the Baltic)
Spending a lot of AF on an offense where it is lost, rather than keeping it well shielded with INF and preserving it for repeated offense and defense use
Being unable to make additional landings in Africa for several turns.
Allowing Russia to break loose in central Europe, quite possibly securing Ukraine and Belo so that Eastern and Balkans are being traded instead of Ukraine/Belo

The GenCon scoring/time limited thing has a major impact on strategy.  Kreigsmarine going head to head with the Royal Navy and US Navy is a losing proposition, pretty quickly.  That initial surge plus 1 turn is the best you can probably hope for most of the time.  And in a game where you play to more traditional ending points (X VC’s, domination, surrender) it is probably not that practical of a move (unless your opponent may not realize what they are seeing).

How would this change if Germany’s down two fighters??

Well my response to this mess was to put my UK fleet in SZ6 (BB, trn) and build a AC, put 2 Figs on it and a Destroyer.
Russia moves the Sub there to.

US sacrfices its fleet with 2 trn to SZ8 of load the units in UK, put Fig and Bmb there.

us blocks spain sz with a des (you could use uk trn in canada for this but then your 1 arm less in Uk)

The reason to do this is not to prevent a consilidation but to prevent a landing from the southern navy (in our game we use tripleA ladder rules(axis bid 9) and Jlord bought a trn in med)

And Russia moves into Europe with everything she got.  (take karelia, ukraine belorussia) (germany has only 1 art and 4 inf in eastern, and 5 inf,5arm in western).

So a landing attempt on UK will be really expensive, but i think he will turn around and attack Karelia instead.)  (and will then suffer a landing in western or karelia)

Thank you Nix for posting the effects on the “backside” of that move. :-)

@Jennifer:

How would this change if Germany’s down two fighters??

IMHO, one fighter is bad enough. I do not think a fleet strategy would work down 2 fighters, even in a Gencon time limited game.

Squirecam

@ncscswitch:

This is a variant of a Caspian Sub strat that was previously discussed on the forum.

The short version to block it (I may miss 1 or 2 details)

1.  UK builds and AC, TRN and 2 INF.  Moves fleet to SZ6, palces new naval units in SZ6, lands existing FIGs on SZ6 AC.
        (Total UK fleet:  1 BB, 1 AC, 2 FIG, 2 TRN)
2.  USA sends 1 FIG, 1 BOM, 2 INF, 1 ART, 1 ARM from EUS to UK (via TRN offloading from SZ8)
3.  Russia sends their sub to join the UK fleet in SZ6 (or to SZ7, depending on where the Med Fleet is, but most likely to SZ6)

Net Effect:
UK now has some good land defense (6 INF, 2 ART, 2 ARM, 1 FIG, 2 BOM, 1 AA)
Baltic fleet has to fight its way to UK, and cannot link with the Med Fleet since the Med Fleet cannot reach SZ6
Many German TRN’s are going to be sunk as fodder in the naval battle, preventing an immediate landing in London… at least not with enough force to crack UK’s defenders.
Med Fleet, if it moved into the Atlantic, is now in range of US ships to be sunk in US2.  1 DST, 2 TRN, 1 FIG, 1 BOM against 1 BB, 1 TRN, 1 SUB.

By the end of Turn 3, with further naval/air builds by UK, and with second wave of US forces (2 more TRN, another DST, plust whatever AF and land units can be sent), the German fleets are pretty well gone, if not totally destroyed.

Meanwhile, with Germany diverting that much of their income West, Russia should be in Karelia, Belo and Ukraine, reducing Germany’s income by 7 IPC.  Germany is also kicke dout of Egypt, and should ahve lost Libya, and be about to lose Algeria (if not already lost).

So the gamble is…
Can Germany fight past a joint UK/USA defense of London in G2?Â

If they fail, they are already down 25% of their income, plus the lost units that were built as Navy in G1 and are now sunk (plus their bid). 
Russia has solidified their posiitons in German territories.
US and UK both have land units staged forward to UK that only need TRN’s to start large scale landings anywhere from Western to Norway (includign Germany and Eastern sicne the baltic Fleet was sunk in the North Sea).

Again, I may have missed some specific details, but if the UK player is awake on UK1 and sees the threat (kind of hard to miss) and unless the US player is incompetant, Geermany will blow their navy, amd a nice chunk of their AF, for a gain of only killing some Allied Fleet, after which, the Allies will hve uncontested control of teh seas and skies in and around Europe.

i think that these UK block in the first round can only secure its masacr nothing more; beacuse Germany attack with 4fig, 1bom, 3subs, 1des, 1AC and 4 tra

I think you shouldn’t block at all.  I think you should try and crush them before they can merge.  On the defense you’re toast.  Too many german units can make it to the fight.  You’re only hope is to kill them before they can unify and rebuild afterwords.

@Jennifer:

I think you shouldn’t block at all.  I think you should try and crush them before they can merge.  On the defense you’re toast.  Too many german units can make it to the fight.  You’re only hope is to kill them before they can unify and rebuild afterwords.

You can’t.

UK’s units are out of position for a preemptive strike, except for 3 planes.

That is why the block.  You either attempt the block, or they unify AND amphib London with full air support.

so you want to say that if they unify it would turn the tide for the axis

If you let an undamaged German fleet unify in SZ7 on G2, yes it would be a very bad situation for the Allies.  That is a lot of defensive firepower, and a pretty serious offensive force as well.  Washington would be at risk from that massed fleet.

So you do not let them merge undamged.  You beat the snot out of them, even at teh cost of the UK and initial US fleets, and leave that fleet small enough to be countered by a single turn of joint US/UK cooperation.

Couldnt you stack SZ-8 and then hit the Gerries when they leave the Baltic?  I’m assuming of course that the Gerries use their BB to hit Egypt

That is just it, in a fleet unification they do not hit Egypt, they take Gibraltar.

You either block in UK1, or you end up with a German fleet of 1 BB, 1 DST, 3 SUB, 2 TRN, plus G1 purchases in SZ7.  If those purchases are 1 AC and 3 TRN… that is a lot of trouble that Germany can do before US or UK masses enough force to do anything about it.  And with THAT fleet in SZ7, the initial gains by Russia will NOT be enough to offset the massive delay in US/UK participation in the Battle for Europe.

So, you HAVE to block and do as much damage as you can…

Basically if you can´t stop the 4 or 5 trns UK is toast on G3. (or atleast have a 60%+ chance of it…

A thought; if we do a triplea style bid 9 ipc.

I take 8 to Axis buys a sub put it in sz8, and attack the UK BB,trn and russian sub with 2 subs, 1 bmb, 1 fig  (i should kill the fleet and maybe have the bmb and fig walk away.)

Then i spend my cash on a AC and 3 trns (total of 4)

bring BB to Gibraltar, and Trn to Gibraltar

UK wouldn´t be able to “block” the german navy on Uk1, witch should make for a invasion o G2… of 8 Units + All AF. (6 Figs and 1 bmb) (10 units if US doesn´t sacrifice Destroyer.)

Wouldn´t the UK be in grave danger then?

Nah.

Just build the land forces for the future invasion first.

You think that force can beat 12 INF, 1 ART, 1 ARM, 2 FIG, 1 BOM?  Plus any US forces sent in?

Not likely :-)

Allies still have that fleet to deal with… but Stalin has to be positivelty SINGING over that G1 :-)

But UK can do nothing for atleast 3 rounds or more, becuse US can´t kill the navy on themselves, and UK can do nothing more then defend their Island…

But you might be right…

And of course if UK does that goes all land units, you don´t move your baltic fleet, just shuck all units in Germany/westrussia to kill whatever standing in Karelia (if Russia wentured that far…  Then German inf won´t be needing to go by foot all the long way  :)

UK1:  Land units for London defense
USA1:  AC and other fleet (move Pac Fleet to Panama, Panama DST to SZ10)
UK2:  Build AC, DST, and more depending on savings from UK1 in SZ8
USA2:  Move AC, 2 DSTs, TRN’s and other ships to SZ8 w/ UK fleet.  Add existing FIGs  Move pac fleet to SZ10 with more US ships bought.

G3 Germany has some choices to make.  2 loaded carriers, multiple DSTs, TRN fodder…That is an ugly fleet to attack.
But if they wait, more US ships, plus UK buys are in the pipeline… and it only gets worse for Germany.
Russia can create enough havoc for 3 turns to prevent Germany from getting too out of hand in central Europe.

And once that German fleet is gone, US and UK start landing immediately, with lots of FIG support… and the US BB that has reached Europe via the Panama Canal.

Then i guess the best buy for germany is to do the attack with 2 subs bmb and fig, build a destroyer to protect the little Baltic navy.

Take egypt Buy land troops (or AF), kill Russians

I mostly agree with you Nix.  Pehaps not specific points of the strat, but with your core concept.

Germany just does not have the funds to go head to head with US and UK navies ($40 to $72).  They can bluster, annoy, threaten, but ultimately they will die.

So the trick is to get the maximum threat for the minimum buck.  And so far, that seems to be an AC in the Baltic on G1.  That plus land based AF, and the Baltic TRN makes UK have to be a bit conservative in their moves for several rounds in order to not open up London to attack (and I have already had a game where UK ignored the Baltic Threat, and Germany took London on G2).  So you slow UK down with that build.  Then you also put UK and/or US into a position where eventually they will have to kill that fleet.  And they are going to lose some ships, probably some TRNs, in the process.  More of a slow down to the Allied transit of forces to Europe.  And you get that for only $16 IPC spent.

Using the bid to put another SUB in SZ8 to go after the UK fleet sounds like a very interesting idea, because of how much it would further slow down UK, and the US.  The US would probably not be able to go to Africa since they are going to need to get ships to UK to get a protected TRN fleet in the water there as soon as possible.  Combining the attack on SZ2 with the above AC buy should give Germany 4+ turns of near complete security from Allied landings, and should allow them a good chance to gain some significant income from Africa, build up their land forces in an Atlantic Wall, and shove Russia back hard and pin them in their core territories, awaiting Japan’s arrival for the 1-2 punch to finish them off.

:mrgreen:

I have been toying with using the bid to place a sub in sz8, too.

Sinking the UK fleet in sz2 can give a nice head start in the Atlantic for Germany.

I can think of only one way of preventing this from happening. Attacking Norway on R1 (3inf 1arm 2ftr) to kill the German ftr.