@Imperious:
3)…Each hit caused by an Infantry unit can only be applied to an infantry unit, while armor unit hits must be applied to any defending armor units first before any other unit can be selected as causality. Armor units also include artillery types of units.
Russia would be in trouble if it cannot use infantry to kill tanks?
I think infantry has anti-tank weapons like rockets, mines and C4s.
3)…
4)…
There seems to be a mistake about rolling of dice among those two steps.
Retreating units do not get to fire as they retreat however; attacking units get one free “parting shot†roll on all defending units and they receive no return fire. The defender can declare to retreat a portion of his forces and leave a few units behind to “cover†the retreat. The retreating units do not get to fire, but the units left to fight still roll on defense. Additional casualties incurred are removed from those units that retreated.
Reworded:
Retreating units are still in combat the next cycle but do not fire. They may still be hit by dive bombing but otherwise units left behind (if any) must take hits first.
Ok those are fine changes…. OK i have to reword this idea that you brought up… Armor can hit armor first but within those pieces that are “armor” the player losing these pieces decides … either a artillery or tank is lost. When infantry hit they hit only infantry unless their are no causalities of this type to be removed.
So thats “infantry kill infantry first” and “tanks kill tanks/artillery first” ?
Tekkyy, I like those air units rules. Having to leave the battlefield for a cycle to reload. It was decided that air units may move their total range ability when tying to retreat?
So thats “infantry kill infantry first” and “tanks kill tanks/artillery first” ?
yes…
On the air plane idea… if a turn is 3-6 months it does not seem correct to have this thing where air units fight “every other round” it takes like a few hours or less to get in position to attack and the same to fly back to an airfield. This on/ off thing only works in something thats drastically more tactical like a game about midway sea battle where your covering turns in hours not 6 month periods…
Yeah thats why I try to incorporate the distance factor into it.
Turn is 3-6 months but we what have here is still supposed to be a “battle”.
While attacking from the next territory we can understand fly back and forth to repair but if you think about of a UK fighter flying all the way to Germany…you wouldn’t imagine it to kill more tanks than its bombs.
I just want to model that as well as the home ground advantage of planes…they have the luxury of an airfield.
Thats why you change the aerial combat values so the defender possibly has more value:
aerial combat values:
Unit As attacker As defender
Fighter 1-2 1-3
Dive-Bomber 1 1
Bomber 1 1
Jet Fighter 2X 1-4 2X 1-4
Jet Bomber 1-2 1-2
That doesn’t model the endurance though. Thats the main thing I am looking at. More important than “luxury of airfield” I mentioned just now.
Like if we have lower attack/defense values for dogfighting ongoing undecisive air combat cycles is bad for the attacker.
Ok what combat values do you propose.?
Like if we have lower attack/defense values for dogfighting ongoing undecisive air combat cycles is bad for the attacker.
@Imperious:
Ok what combat values do you propose.?
No I am saying the above mentioned situation is good to have. Ongoing undecisive air combat cycle should be good for the defender. I think thats realistic.
The only thing is that from a economic point of view fighting the war at home should be bad. But thats something else we’ll look at in the income thread. (Slight reduction of income due to war at a territory.)
So nothing wrong with what we have now the reduced combat values for dogfighting compared to bombing.
The bombers 4/1 might need tuning though but thats “Units” thread stuff.
Combat values can’t represent endurance though.
Well the endurance is entirely dependant on how log each side decides to stay in combat… once land combat is finished… those aerial combat rounds are over.
So that would be defending air units retreat straight away when defender loses/retreats all land units?
That would be unrealistic. The attacker without access to air field can fight on and fight while defender has to retreat as soon as its air field is lost?
Wouldn’t my retreat-on-next-reload be better?
And No I don’t think the attacker has complete freedom on how long the battle can take. But defender has.
I just don’t want UK attack Germany with 1 FTR killing 5, 10, or 15 ARM. Planes are powerful but they can’t be reload in the same manner as infantry and tanks.
So that would be defending air units retreat straight away when defender loses/retreats all land units?
+++++++When either side retreats then all combat is over… including aerial. Air units are available to support ground troops or they have their own purpose. They can either SBR on enemy factories or attack/ sink enemy units… They do not just “have a dogfight” without some larger purpose other than shoot down other enemy fighters.
That would be unrealistic. The attacker without access to air field can fight on and fight while defender has to retreat as soon as its air field is lost?
++++++++ HUH? forget the airfield thing. Planes land on any grass… if the enemy comes close those planes just move farther away on another field of grass. Check out the movie “battle of Britain” Planes are only there to support ground forces or protect bombers during SBR as escorts.
Wouldn’t my retreat-on-next-reload be better?
And No I don’t think the attacker has complete freedom on how long the battle can take. But defender has.
++++ under the proposed combat system either side may retreat partial or in whole. Each side has the choice to move away.
I just don’t want UK attack Germany with 1 FTR killing 5, 10, or 15 ARM. Planes are powerful but they can’t be reload in the same manner as infantry and tanks.
++++++ this cannot happen because as i stated … once land combat between land forces is over… all planes just buzz off.
…“battle of Britain” Planes are only there to support ground forces or protect bombers during SBR as escorts.
Support ground forces? Thats UK right? What about German side? I thought they didn’t invade by land?
++++++++ HUH? forget the airfield thing. Planes land on any grass… if the enemy comes close those planes just move farther away on another field of grass.
Yes they can just land on grass, don’t need an air field.
But it would be pretty good logistics to fly across the British channel and quickly establish a mini air base to reload planes?
I just don’t want UK attack Germany with 1 FTR killing 5, 10, or 15 ARM. Planes are powerful but they can’t be reload in the same manner as infantry and tanks.
++++++ this cannot happen because as i stated … once land combat between land forces is over… all planes just buzz off.
Wait…so we can’t attack with purely air forces anymore? Thats quite big. You won’t be able to slowly pick off ground forces with air strikes anymore. Like we can’t pick off troops on islands before an easy landing.
…“battle of Britain” Planes are only there to support ground forces or protect bombers during SBR as escorts.
Support ground forces? Thats UK right? What about German side? I thought they didn’t invade by land?
They did not invade… they did SBR and fought aerial combat… thats the only other case where planes fight each other, because escorts are engaging defending fighters that are going after the bombers. Thats consistent with OOB and what were are doing.
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++++++++ HUH? forget the airfield thing. Planes land on any grass… if the enemy comes close those planes just move farther away on another field of grass.
Yes they can just land on grass, don’t need an air field.
But it would be pretty good logistics to fly across the British channel and quickly establish a mini air base to reload planes?
Those logistics is represented by the defenders getting better defense over their own territory, while the attackers over say britain have only 30 minutes to dogfight before they have to fly back.
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I just don’t want UK attack Germany with 1 FTR killing 5, 10, or 15 ARM. Planes are powerful but they can’t be reload in the same manner as infantry and tanks.
++++++ this cannot happen because as i stated … once land combat between land forces is over… all planes just buzz off.
Wait…so we can’t attack with purely air forces anymore? Thats quite big. You won’t be able to slowly pick off ground forces with air strikes anymore. Like we can’t pick off troops on islands before an easy landing.
Yes you will what will happen is the attacker will select territories where he will enjoy air superiority and for at least one round the defender will take a beating before retreating. Otherwise the air units will fight it out and following this its possible for a round of clear air superiourity and attacks on these targets. We cant just let air units just keep attacking ground forces round after the round. the defender has to be able to retreat, besides if they retreat in full the attacker gets that “free round” on them anyway. playtest it it works.
@Imperious:
They did not invade… they did SBR and fought aerial combat… thats the only other case where planes fight each other, because escorts are engaging defending fighters that are going after the bombers. Thats consistent with OOB and what were are doing.
Not yet. I believe for now we’ve abstracted fighter escorts into LRA.
Those logistics is represented by the defenders getting better defense over their own territory, while the attackers over say britain have only 30 minutes to dogfight before they have to fly back.
Then it doesn’t explain the bombers 4/1…
But really…did Germany land on UK during Battle of Britain?
We cant just let air units just keep attacking ground forces round after the round. the defender has to be able to retreat, besides if they retreat in full the attacker gets that “free round” on them anyway. playtest it it works.
Oooh lets not get confused. Can’t air units keep attacking ground forces now? Thats back to an older endurance question. :wink:
By the way, since attacking planes can just land on grass and reload…I think defending planes no longer need to retreat after ground control has been lost.
“Then it doesn’t explain the bombers 4/1…”
Those bomber values are in either combat as the attacker against ground units ( when no enemy planes are around) and secondly, the value against intercepting fighters in aerial combat ( dogfights). If land forces are attacking say a lone bomber ( presumably at your airfield) it also defends at a one.
German planes had 30 minutes over england… thats why in those aerial combat values the defense gets a 2 value, while attackers get only a two. The endurance thing is built into these values. WE simply cant install some idea of on/off rules of attack, land,refuel, take off again etc…because we are dealing with a strategic game not an operational level wargame.
“Can’t air units keep attacking ground forces now? Thats back to an older endurance question.”
Not if the defender has decided to retire. Otherwise dont you see the choas that would develop? Everybody would buy planes only. Each side has to have the opportunity to retreat with grace. In a modern game perhaps if it was not a strategic level… that might be possible. But in ww2 recon of the enemy position was not very sucessfull so planes could jot j
So now both attacking and defending planes are not forced to retreat at all?
This is what I think you are saying.
So you are happy with:
*1 attacking fighter to win against and kill 10 armor
*10 attacking armor to lose and die to 1 fighter
Yes I note either side can retreat.
What were the effects when you playtested it in your games?
Russia can’t just stack infantry for defense anymore?
Oh no. Again just read this:
Land Combat Sequence Summary:
All attacking artillery units fire first preemptively on the first round and can conduct one of two forms of combat as follows: 1) artillery units can make a special attack that does not require that they move into the territory as follows: They may fire one “salvo” from a territory they reside from and into an enemy territory for one round only. This attack is considered preemptive and the defender cannot roll in its defense. 2) A second more common method is to attack in conjunction with other attacking units and fight in multiple rounds of combat .However; only during the first combat round they fire in simultaneous fashion. Any ground forces hit as a result of the first artillery bombardment attack are now removed from play.
If attacking air units are brought into battle over a territory with a Victory City or an Industrial Complex, then these can be fired upon by Anti- Aircraft defenses. (See Anti- Aircraft defense). In any event the hits are taken preemptively on these planes before moving on to the next step. If the attacker has brought in air units, then they must engage defending air units separately each combat round until only one side has any air units left. This can be accomplished by one side destroying the enemy or retreating their own air units. During each round where ground combat continues and only one side has air units, those remaining air forces can attack ground forces with preemptive rolls each combat round. Land units cannot attack planes in any manner, except in territories that contain an Industrial Complex (this would be rolled before the start of the first combat round).All ground forces hit as a result of aerial attack are now removed from play and in this case the owner of those ground units has a choice of which ground units that may be taken as loses.
After each ground combat round the attacker followed by the defender rolls one D6 for each engaged unit trying to hit at or lower than its attack factor. Each hit caused by an Infantry unit can only be applied to an infantry unit, while armor unit hits must be applied to any defending armor units first before any other unit can be selected as causality. Armor units also include artillery types of units.
The defender then rolls for his defending units including those selected as causalities again trying to roll at or lower than each unit’s defense value. Second, each defending combat unit rolls for each unit using their defense value. Lastly, the defending player removes all hits first, followed by the attacking players’ casualties. The attacker must remove loses in the same manner as required by the defender.
The attacker followed by the defender can now make retreat declarations. All units engaged in combat have a voluntary retreat option. Full or partial retreats by either side are allowed after the first round of combat and only the currently engaged units’ can fire at each other. Retreating units do not get to fire as they retreat however; attacking units get one free “parting shot†roll on all defending units and they receive no return fire. The defender can declare to retreat a portion of his forces and leave a few units behind to “cover†the retreat. The retreating units do not get to fire, but the units left to fight still roll on defense. Additional casualties incurred are removed from those units that retreated. All units left to fight still roll on defense in the normal fashion.
So 1 fighter is all you need you defend against 10 armor!
Fortunately 1 fighter + 1 infantry is not enough to attack and take a territory with 10 armor. (Due to improved modelling, the small invading land force will die very quickly).
I know you can retreat. But we’ll have someone attack 10 armor with 1 fighter. The defender would retreat their armor. And then you think about what this is modelling in the real world…
UK has air superiority and attack German with some fighters and German retreats all the way to Berlin! :cry:
In reality German was a tough nut to crack even with their Luffwaffe down.
Bombing campaigns were great in WWII by you still need time to perform the bombing campaigns. Soften the enemy over time.
Automatic retreat
Oooh I think this was added without discussion?
