I think jet bombers should be 16 IPC 2/3 selective attack, SBR at half-strength, attack ships, dogfight at 2/2
++++ at that price jet bombers would be worthless for 16 IPC. Id rather buy a fighter.
or should planes even bomb in main round fire…which is when your troops advance…friendly fire?
+++ this is not clear…sorry
Basically I was thinking letting jets attack in both opening and main round fire.
Hence they non-jet planes do not prevent enemy jet planes from attacking friendly land units.
But now I see you mean jets only hit twice for dogfighting.
OOOO yes a great idea… jets cannot be intercepted so they can attack targets and then also in air combat. My idea on the twice attack was the fact that Me-262 was able to take out multiple planes with its speed. it was the tiger tank of the sky.
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by the way, could WWII jet fighters dogfighting each other?
+++++ yes, however i never seen any actual encounter with a German Jet and say a glouster meteor jet fighter/bomber
then could it be because it wasn’t possible in WWII?
OOOOO no its because the quantities of these planes were so scarce that they never saw each other and because they had different roles in the war.
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+++= twice attacks for jet fighters in air to air combat only… not jet bombers against land units for example. those values are good but they are against land targets only
Those values are just summary of current prooposal.
Jet bombers dogfighting worse than jet fighter…so taking that into account Jet Bomber is still bad value compared to Jet Fighter.
Bomber        15 IPC 4/1 no selective, SBR, can’t attack ships, dogfight at 1/1
Jet Bomber     15 IPC 3/3 selective attack, no SBR, attack ships, dogfight at 2/3
Fighter        10 IPC 3/4 selective attack, no SBR, attack ship, dogfight at 2/3
Jet Fighter      12 IPC 4/5 selective attack, no SBR, attack ship, dogfight at 4/4
Except for that Bomber can become Heavy Bomber…so Jet Bomber can become Heavy Jet Bomber…
Surprised to see you want Heavy Jet Bomber…since it conflicts with an “agile” and fighter-like “Jet Bomber”.
+++ it should be at least possible if the game is extended in late 1945 american “shooting star” jet fighter shows up.
also about 3 years later americans had that heavy jet bomber aka the flying wing.
@Imperious:
OOOO yes a great idea… jets cannot be intercepted so they can attack targets and then also in air combat.
Ok so we’ll let jets bypass dogfighting with non-jets.
If only one side has jets, those jets can choose to preemptively and selectively attack ground targets (as if that side had air superiority).
And then we could apply the “armor hits on armor/artillery” rule to dogfighting!
“In dogfighting, hits by jets must be allocated on jets before non-jets.”
Bomber        15 IPC 4/1 no selective, SBR, can’t attack ships, dogfight at 1/1
Jet Bomber     15 IPC 3/3 selective attack, no SBR, attack ships, dogfight at 2/3
Fighter        10 IPC 3/4 selective attack, no SBR, attack ship, dogfight at 2/3
Jet Fighter      12 IPC 4/5 selective attack, no SBR, attack ship, dogfight at 4/4
So the problem remains. When you achieve Jet Technology, you would upgarde your fighters but you wouldn’t upgrade your bombers…
We may need to leave the Jet Bomber as a bomber rather than fighter-like units.
So it would be like…
Jet Bomber 15 IPC 3/3, no selective, SBR, can’t attack ships, dogfight at 2/2
I mean you want Jet to be an upgrade not a new unit. It would be weird then you achieve “Jet” technology you suddenly lose ability to SBR :-P
Except for that Bomber can become Heavy Bomber…so Jet Bomber can become Heavy Jet Bomber…
Surprised to see you want Heavy Jet Bomber…since it conflicts with an “agile” and fighter-like “Jet Bomber”.
+++ it should be at least possible if the game is extended in late 1945 american “shooting star” jet fighter shows up.
Ok how do we actually model that?
Separate into different techologies…“Heavy bomber”, “Jet bomber”, and “Heavy jet bomber” ?
“Jet” then becomes “Jet fighter”.
This is complicated.
But remember we don’t want use fixed dates, unless there is a very good reason for it. Remember we want historical simulation not historical replay.
Ok so we’ll let jets bypass dogfighting with non-jets.
If only one side has jets, those jets can choose to preemptively and selectively attack ground targets (as if that side had air superiority).
++++ that would be an option for the owner of the jets… especially jet bombers
And then we could apply the “armor hits on armor/artillery” rule to dogfighting!
“In dogfighting, hits by jets must be allocated on jets before non-jets.”
+++++ yes thats good!
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Bomber 15 IPC 4/1 no selective, SBR, can’t attack ships, dogfight at 1/1
Jet Bomber 15 IPC 3/3 selective attack, no SBR, attack ships, dogfight at 2/3
Fighter 10 IPC 3/4 selective attack, no SBR, attack ship, dogfight at 2/3
Jet Fighter 12 IPC 4/5 selective attack, no SBR, attack ship, dogfight at 4/4
So the problem remains. When you achieve Jet Technology, you would upgarde your fighters but you wouldn’t upgrade your bombers…
+++++ no you have a seperate piece… all your planes dont just “poof” and become jets. you have to build them individually
We may need to leave the Jet Bomber as a bomber rather than fighter-like units.
So it would be like…
Jet Bomber 15 IPC 3/3, no selective, SBR, can’t attack ships, dogfight at 2/2
I mean you want Jet to be an upgrade not a new unit. It would be weird then you achieve “Jet” technology you suddenly lose ability to SBR tongue
++++ yea that is a problem… for now lets take that idea and allow SBR for jets
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Except for that Bomber can become Heavy Bomber…so Jet Bomber can become Heavy Jet Bomber…
Surprised to see you want Heavy Jet Bomber…since it conflicts with an “agile” and fighter-like “Jet Bomber”.
+++ it should be at least possible if the game is extended in late 1945 american “shooting star” jet fighter shows up.
Ok how do we actually model that?
Separate into different techologies…“Heavy bomber”, “Jet bomber”, and “Heavy jet bomber” ?
“Jet” then becomes “Jet fighter”.
This is complicated.
But remember we don’t want use fixed dates, unless there is a very good reason for it. Remember we want historical simulation not historical replay.
++++ the tech boxes will allow each player to see where he stands on his ability to gain a tech advantage. The axis and allied tech sheets needs to be seperate so neither side has an idea where the other is at until its allready happened.
no you have a seperate piece… all your planes dont just “poof” and become jets. you have to build them individually
So basically… if you research heavy bombers and jet technology… You will have fighters, jet fighters, heavy bombers, and heavy jet bombers----I feel this is too complicated. What kind of pieces are you gonna use so people could easily identify which one’s which? I propose using the old system where you upgrade all your units when you research something.
That would be the easy path… i agree… however some of these pieces can be used from 2nd edition units…
the cruiser unit is the old battleship
the mech infantry unit is the old tank piece ( or buy halftracks)
use old fighters for naval planes
the old bombers can be used for regular bombers, the new bombers can be jet or heavy…
eventually some additional pieces may have to be purchased. Failing that ill make some stickers that will go on chips to delininate which is a jet, heavy, heavy jet bomber, etc.
It may seem complicated but the OOB have this same thing ( problem) except they shortcut the whole problem by saying in effect " all your planes are instantly " fill in the blank"
that is not historically based.
It is hard to call it AaAR Historical Edition, and call it not historical… :|
Isn’t this similiar to pushing a tactical level combat system into a global game?
GG
naw… i have this playtested on weekends. once you try it you never look back. Its not too tactical. it just maintains some additional items in a different sequence or perspective.
Did you guys ever think of adding cargo planes that can airdrop infantry and send money to allied powers, or even flying boats? I posted in the naval combat section about amphibious tanks and planes
And also frogmen (basically combat scuba-divers) are cool. The Italians and Americans used them
Flying Boats was actually mentioned a while back I think… If I’m correct it is in the line up… Frogmen are too specialized in my mind…
GG
So are Marines and Schutzstaffel, but I thought frogmen are cooler. Anyway, why don’t we add special forces to the game?
I have a draft:
UK––commandos, chindits, SAS, French maquisards–choose one
USA----rangers, marines, black devils, pathfinders
USSR----Delfin, Siberian shock troops (I have to give credit to Imperious for this one)
Germany----stormtroopers, Green Police
Italy----Bersaglieri, X-MAS
Basically this is jstill a dream, I have no unit values yet.
Well, I guess if you are going to add 3 types of Jets then you got some reasons there… It could be more like you can use so many per turn in that role…
GG
I have a draft:
UK––commandos, chindits, SAS, French maquisards–choose one ( on this id make chindits a specific NA for UK similier to commandos … they can pass thru enemy territory attack and move back)
USA----rangers, marines, black devils, pathfinders ( id pick marines easy choice)
USSR----Delfin, Siberian shock troops (I have to give credit to Imperious for this one) ( siberian shock troops are allready a specific unit) how bout soviet guard units?
Germany----stormtroopers, Green Police ( SS easy choice will become SS panzer also possible panzer grenadiers but that is mech infantry)
Italy----Bersaglieri, X-MAS ( how bout those special forgore units?-- my spelling is off but Italy maintained about 12-15 special mech armor divisions)
how bout soviet guard units?
Yeah, I like the Red Guard
( how bout those special forgore units?– my spelling is off but Italy maintained about 12-15 special mech armor divisions)
Ok but I just thought snipers (Bersaglieri) were better since we don’t have snipers yet
This war did not produce entire division level or corps/ army level formations of sniper units… that is way way too tactical and better fitted for AA minis.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alpini_Corps
i think that is what they called them… ill pull out a book soon to confirm
@Imperious:
This war did not produce entire division level or corps/ army level formations of sniper units… that is way way too tactical and better fitted for AA minis.
I agree, 1 infantry piece represents x amount of infantry and snipers were incorporated in with the corps.
For the British I think that Commandos: Cost 5 3/1 Raiding ability (can attack adjacent IC areas and SBR same as bomber rules).
For the Americans yes I would pick Marines: Cost 4 2/2 Sneak Attack on first round of combat, Amphibious Assaults make there attack 3.
For the Russians Soviet Guards are already covered well in the NA’s. I would pick Siberian Shock Troops: Cost 5 IPC’s, 2/2 When Attacking an enemy in an occupied Red Territory it’s attack goes up to 3. When attacking an enemy in a non-red territory it gets a sneak attack for the first round of combat.
Fer the Germans I would actually choose Stormtroopers (an Armor for its “special”?): Cost 4 IPC’s. 3/2. When supported by an Artillery the units Attack goes to 4. The Unit gets to sneak attack on the first round of battle.
For the Italians they get the Bersaglieri (to me a no-brainer): Costs 5 IPC’s. 3/2. Unit moves at 2. Sneak attacks when Defending.
For the Japanese I would choose the SNLF: Cost 5 IPC’s. 3/3. Units sneak attack on the first turn Defending or Attacking. May be transported by Bomber and Dropped (1 per plane, AA fire that shoots it down destroys the SNLF, and the Bomber).
GG
So the problem remains. When you achieve Jet Technology, you would upgarde your fighters but you wouldn’t upgrade your bombers…
+++++ no you have a seperate piece… all your planes dont just “poof” and become jets. you have to build them individually
Oh there was misunderstanding. I thought you wanted Jets to be an upgrade rather than a new unit.
With the too many units problem…we could alternatively model upgrading and have a 1 turn delay before all planes become jet planes.
Just an idea.
We are getting quite a few units with naval fighter and dive bomber. And those two are more important for distinction?
I know it does look that way. too many air units… Perhaps we just give Germany the jets, with UK coming in latter… and for bombers we allow US to make heavy bombers and possibly germany… and forget the heavy jet bombers, and jet bombers… too many variables… what you think guys?
so we are left with:
fighters
bombers
and long range aircraft as an upgrade to all planes.
naval fighters
divebombers ( against land)
plus what ever come out of german jets and possibe uk jet fighters
