Capital Punishment: case of Stanley "Tookie" Williams

If i was a smart young black man i reckon this is what i might answer this thread like this…
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5022757
unfortunately i am not smart or black… i guess i will just have to rely on my wealth then…

The question seems to be when is the death penalty appropriate (if ever)?

Well, just to put my 2 cents in, capital punishment is the only place where I am not pro-life (I have a great respect for life, be it in the womb or in prison).  I’m not saying the death penalty should be common, in fact I think it should be quite rare and reserved only for the most evil in society.

However when there is someone who

1. Is very violent, murdering for little or no cause (i.e. not manslaughter)
2. Commits these crimes multiple times (making possible wrong convictions much, much less likely)
3. Shows no true (not staged, after all everyone in prison is a born again Christian…until they get out) remorse or desire to change (Tookie did say he was changed, but refused to apologize to the families of his victims…not a sign of remorse)

then I consider that it can be correct to apply the death penalty.  The individual has forfeited his right to live by his gruesome actions.  Why should society spend the effort to keep this individual locked up forever (with the corresponding chance of escape or other nefarious actions in prison - such as ordering retaliation on the witnesses to his crimes)?  Why should surviving victims and family members not have closure?

With regards to cost, the expenses being greater to execute someone is a result of our overly expensive (in every respect) legal system, and should not be a reason to stop the death penalty.  Cost should never be a factor constraining justice.

221b - just a by the way.  Tookie may have refused to apologise to the families as he maintains that he is innocent and has nothing to apologise for.

Also there seems to be some thought that execution is an appropriate punishment for some reason.
If i were looking at spending the next 40+ years of my life in prison, it would be very difficult to work up the resolve to have something to live for.  In fact, i would find the idea of a needle at the end of it quite comforting. 
Prison vs. the death penalty not only allows for the sorting of the innocent from the guilty (after a period of time), but also helps to ensure that the guilty truly DO get punished, and do not get off so easily as a sweet goodbye into the comforting darkness - away from the torment of their soul/prison.

Also - i am not looking for more crap here, but there is absolutely NO New Testament evidence for the death penalty.
“let he who is without sin cast the first stone”
Death does not equate to a parking ticket Linkon.  Many of us realize this.

Fair enough CC, yet the evidence for his guilt seems pretty convincing to me.  While he certainly could have been framed for one or two of the crimes he was convicted on, I find it difficult to beleive he was framed for all of them.  Or that there were not other crimes he commited where he was not caught.

Dunno if 40 years in prison is better or worse than death.  I guess it depends on your perspective of what happens after you die.

Also, just so there is no misunderstanding, I’m not pleased that he is dead.  Capital punishment doesn’t make me happy.

@Linkon:

@Mary:

Who would Jesus execute?

Jesus would tell individual sinners to “sin no more” and they would obey.

A governor or president has the power to pardon, but not the power of Jesus to enable a life of redeeming action by any sinner, let alone one of a mass murder scale.

Sure he has done some good since going into prison.
I have volunteered to put roofing and siding on houses.  I can also write some books.  But I still had to pay for my parking tickets.  My volunteering was before and after getting the tickets.

Of course, a miracles can still happen, and this guy could exhibit some immunity to whatever poison they will inject.

Why are you trying to justify this? There is no way a Christian can support the death penalty without completely disregarding Jesus’ teachings.

Why are you trying to justify this? There is no way a Christian can support the death penalty without completely disregarding Jesus’ teachings.

Jesus also said he came to fulfill the law, and the law clearly states that a murderer is to be killed.

Fry the bastard.

I’m no fan of capital punishment. I think it’s hipocratic and hurts our nation’s image. We are the only western nation still to execute people.

But while the law stands, it is still law. A jury of his peers sentenced Tookie to be executed. Let the decision stand.

You can only carry this Christian thing so far, after a point its utility as a guidline for behavior requires too many unnatural changes.
we cant just keep up a stiff upper lip in the face of the pure evil allowing it in our presence.

I know I’m going off topic here, but what are the unnatural changes are required to be a Christian?

a couple of thoughts:

no true christian would support the death penalty. that said, no true christian would do a lot of things that many “christians” do on a regular basis. ive yet to encounter a “true” christian, in every sense of the faith. that doesnt mean they are bad, they simply have modified beliefs, which is fine. they just shouldnt profess to follow christs teachings to the letter.

yanny is correct that it is the law, and the sentence should stand as long as it is the law.

nothing williams has done since being convicted has redeemed what he did. he has done some good works, fine, but i dont see that as an excuse for the murders he was convicted on, the other murders he probably committed, and the gang he founded. how do you know hes even truly reformed? he might just be trying to pull an act to live. who knows. i dont buy it, but even if its genuine, he hasnt redeemed himself in my eyes. christ is all about forgiveness though, so if hes truly repentent, he will be forgiven.

CC- the problem with your argument is that its anti-death penalty people trying to have it both ways. its fine that you dont support the death penalty, but its somewhat hypocritical for your reasoning to include life in prison is a “harsher sentence”. since the law isnt about “punishment” (another typical argument), along with the “cruel and unusual” amendment which anti-death penalty people like to refer to. its fine to believe this way, but its a poor argument. i mean, based on the reasoning you offered, couldnt life in prison be seen as “cruel and unusual?” an argument i heard awhile back went something like “nothing is more cruel or unusual than confinig someone to an 8x8 cell for the rest of their life, with no hope of release, surrounded by murderous, violent people, etc.”

i support the death penalty because for those who commit the highest crimes, they cannot be kept in society. they must be removed from it, they are unfit to live. maybe it is nicer to them to kill them rather than jail them for life. but the law isnt about revenge, or inflicting the most punishment on someone.

additionally, the website patton listed is racist. while it may be true (i think it is) that black convicts are more likely to be sentenced to the death penalty, this is a fault with society, not the justice system. there is nothing inherent to the system that brings racism, it is societal prejudices. argue against that, if you will, but do not say:

could send a signal to other inmates that doing good works behind bars may be rewarded – and a message of hope to young African-Americans.

first of all, doing “good works” behind bars should not be rewarded with any kind of clemency towards your sentence. maybe you truly found god, and now you will be a saint for the rest of your life. wonderful. you still killed people, and must pay your debt to society. “good deeds” should not merit clemency undue the sentence (meaning they should influence a parole hearing, since thats what the entire point of the practice is), but not a death sentence, or life without parole. the only thing that should grant clemency for death/life without parole is new evidence, an appeal, etc.
second, this is counterproductive to stopping racism, because it promotes an “us vs. them” attitude.

is there any reason why the sentence should be commuted other than because he is black, or he has done “good works” in prison? if you believe either of those should be enough, thats fine. i dont at all. we’ll agree to disagree then, because you wont convince me.

IL: your not a true christian then. christ is forgiveness and mercy. God is the only judge. it is arrogant and sinful for man to judge, because it assumes a role higher than that given to him by God. sinners will face their judgement and punishment for their sins. virtuous people do not commit sins, even in retribution for other sins. christianity has no place for “justified killing”. killing is killing according to christ. its always a sin.

well thats fine then. no one said you had to be a true christian. im not a christian at all (well, i celebrate christmas, but thats more out of tradition, and the commercialization of it anyway). you can still be christian in the sense that you believe in the divinity of christ, but not necessarily all his teachings. i mean, you can believe anything. just dont claim to be a true christian if you advocate any kind of killing.

*killing of people. killing things other than people, like animals, is allowed. (hint: this is where the grey area for abortion can come in for christians)

Well, let me sum this up as follows…

The scum-bag quadruple murderer who founded the Cripps is dead.  Shame his organization is not as easily wiped out.

As a Pagan and a Libertarian, I have no qualms about the death penalty.  Afterall, it is the ONLY fool-proof means of preventing repeat offenses:  no one who has ever had their capital punishment carried out has committed another crime :-P

@Janus1:

no true christian would support the death penalty. that said, no true christian would do a lot of things that many “christians” do on a regular basis. ive yet to encounter a “true” christian, in every sense of the faith. that doesnt mean they are bad, they simply have modified beliefs, which is fine. they just shouldnt profess to follow christs teachings to the letter.

agree, agree, agree, and i don’t necessarily agree.

nothing williams has done since being convicted has redeemed what he did. he has done some good works, fine, but i dont see that as an excuse for the murders he was convicted on, the other murders he probably committed, and the gang he founded. how do you know hes even truly reformed? he might just be trying to pull an act to live. who knows. i dont buy it, but even if its genuine, he hasnt redeemed himself in my eyes. christ is all about forgiveness though, so if hes truly repentent, he will be forgiven.

i can’t really argue with this.  But it does not offer a case for the death penalty.

CC- the problem with your argument is that its anti-death penalty people trying to have it both ways. its fine that you dont support the death penalty, but its somewhat hypocritical for your reasoning to include life in prison is a “harsher sentence”. since the law isnt about “punishment” (another typical argument), along with the “cruel and unusual” amendment which anti-death penalty people like to refer to. its fine to believe this way, but its a poor argument. i mean, based on the reasoning you offered, couldnt life in prison be seen as “cruel and unusual?” an argument i heard awhile back went something like “nothing is more cruel or unusual than confinig someone to an 8x8 cell for the rest of their life, with no hope of release, surrounded by murderous, violent people, etc.”

regardless - it is an argument against the death penalty that i think is reasonable.
Also - when you are dead, being found innocent is little comfort.

@Mary:

Who would Jesus execute?

Who would jesus have not follow him?  Are you penniless and have no home depending only on God for survival?

So knock off the Jesus crap, people only use him as a refrence when it suits their argument.  They should focus that energy and take the plank out of their own eye.  If you don’t know what that means, I suggest you read the gospel.

@Zooey72:

So knock off the Jesus crap, people only use him as a refrence when it suits their argument.  They should focus that energy and take the plank out of their own eye.  If you don’t know what that means, I suggest you read the gospel.

TY Zooey.  Reminds me of a favorite Pagan bumpersticker:  “Jesus!  Save me from your followers!”

It is a statement on the hypocritical nature of FAR too many Christians, one that is well identified in this thread, especially when you consider the built-in contradictions of the complete Bible (Old, New, and Apocrifa)

BTW:  Congrats on that pending new star Zooey!  How’s that tank feel?

@Mary:

Who would Jesus execute?

Oh, and mary.  This just occured to me.  “Give to Rome what is Rome’s, give to God what is God’s”.

This pretty much says that Christians shouldn’t interfere in government.  So I am guessing that Jesus would not stop capital punishment, esp. since that is the way he “saved” all of us.