Capital Punishment: case of Stanley "Tookie" Williams

You can only carry this Christian thing so far, after a point its utility as a guidline for behavior requires too many unnatural changes.
we cant just keep up a stiff upper lip in the face of the pure evil allowing it in our presence.

I know I’m going off topic here, but what are the unnatural changes are required to be a Christian?

a couple of thoughts:

no true christian would support the death penalty. that said, no true christian would do a lot of things that many “christians” do on a regular basis. ive yet to encounter a “true” christian, in every sense of the faith. that doesnt mean they are bad, they simply have modified beliefs, which is fine. they just shouldnt profess to follow christs teachings to the letter.

yanny is correct that it is the law, and the sentence should stand as long as it is the law.

nothing williams has done since being convicted has redeemed what he did. he has done some good works, fine, but i dont see that as an excuse for the murders he was convicted on, the other murders he probably committed, and the gang he founded. how do you know hes even truly reformed? he might just be trying to pull an act to live. who knows. i dont buy it, but even if its genuine, he hasnt redeemed himself in my eyes. christ is all about forgiveness though, so if hes truly repentent, he will be forgiven.

CC- the problem with your argument is that its anti-death penalty people trying to have it both ways. its fine that you dont support the death penalty, but its somewhat hypocritical for your reasoning to include life in prison is a “harsher sentence”. since the law isnt about “punishment” (another typical argument), along with the “cruel and unusual” amendment which anti-death penalty people like to refer to. its fine to believe this way, but its a poor argument. i mean, based on the reasoning you offered, couldnt life in prison be seen as “cruel and unusual?” an argument i heard awhile back went something like “nothing is more cruel or unusual than confinig someone to an 8x8 cell for the rest of their life, with no hope of release, surrounded by murderous, violent people, etc.”

i support the death penalty because for those who commit the highest crimes, they cannot be kept in society. they must be removed from it, they are unfit to live. maybe it is nicer to them to kill them rather than jail them for life. but the law isnt about revenge, or inflicting the most punishment on someone.

additionally, the website patton listed is racist. while it may be true (i think it is) that black convicts are more likely to be sentenced to the death penalty, this is a fault with society, not the justice system. there is nothing inherent to the system that brings racism, it is societal prejudices. argue against that, if you will, but do not say:

could send a signal to other inmates that doing good works behind bars may be rewarded – and a message of hope to young African-Americans.

first of all, doing “good works” behind bars should not be rewarded with any kind of clemency towards your sentence. maybe you truly found god, and now you will be a saint for the rest of your life. wonderful. you still killed people, and must pay your debt to society. “good deeds” should not merit clemency undue the sentence (meaning they should influence a parole hearing, since thats what the entire point of the practice is), but not a death sentence, or life without parole. the only thing that should grant clemency for death/life without parole is new evidence, an appeal, etc.
second, this is counterproductive to stopping racism, because it promotes an “us vs. them” attitude.

is there any reason why the sentence should be commuted other than because he is black, or he has done “good works” in prison? if you believe either of those should be enough, thats fine. i dont at all. we’ll agree to disagree then, because you wont convince me.

IL: your not a true christian then. christ is forgiveness and mercy. God is the only judge. it is arrogant and sinful for man to judge, because it assumes a role higher than that given to him by God. sinners will face their judgement and punishment for their sins. virtuous people do not commit sins, even in retribution for other sins. christianity has no place for “justified killing”. killing is killing according to christ. its always a sin.

well thats fine then. no one said you had to be a true christian. im not a christian at all (well, i celebrate christmas, but thats more out of tradition, and the commercialization of it anyway). you can still be christian in the sense that you believe in the divinity of christ, but not necessarily all his teachings. i mean, you can believe anything. just dont claim to be a true christian if you advocate any kind of killing.

*killing of people. killing things other than people, like animals, is allowed. (hint: this is where the grey area for abortion can come in for christians)

Well, let me sum this up as follows…

The scum-bag quadruple murderer who founded the Cripps is dead.  Shame his organization is not as easily wiped out.

As a Pagan and a Libertarian, I have no qualms about the death penalty.  Afterall, it is the ONLY fool-proof means of preventing repeat offenses:  no one who has ever had their capital punishment carried out has committed another crime :-P

@Janus1:

no true christian would support the death penalty. that said, no true christian would do a lot of things that many “christians” do on a regular basis. ive yet to encounter a “true” christian, in every sense of the faith. that doesnt mean they are bad, they simply have modified beliefs, which is fine. they just shouldnt profess to follow christs teachings to the letter.

agree, agree, agree, and i don’t necessarily agree.

nothing williams has done since being convicted has redeemed what he did. he has done some good works, fine, but i dont see that as an excuse for the murders he was convicted on, the other murders he probably committed, and the gang he founded. how do you know hes even truly reformed? he might just be trying to pull an act to live. who knows. i dont buy it, but even if its genuine, he hasnt redeemed himself in my eyes. christ is all about forgiveness though, so if hes truly repentent, he will be forgiven.

i can’t really argue with this.  But it does not offer a case for the death penalty.

CC- the problem with your argument is that its anti-death penalty people trying to have it both ways. its fine that you dont support the death penalty, but its somewhat hypocritical for your reasoning to include life in prison is a “harsher sentence”. since the law isnt about “punishment” (another typical argument), along with the “cruel and unusual” amendment which anti-death penalty people like to refer to. its fine to believe this way, but its a poor argument. i mean, based on the reasoning you offered, couldnt life in prison be seen as “cruel and unusual?” an argument i heard awhile back went something like “nothing is more cruel or unusual than confinig someone to an 8x8 cell for the rest of their life, with no hope of release, surrounded by murderous, violent people, etc.”

regardless - it is an argument against the death penalty that i think is reasonable.
Also - when you are dead, being found innocent is little comfort.

@Mary:

Who would Jesus execute?

Who would jesus have not follow him?  Are you penniless and have no home depending only on God for survival?

So knock off the Jesus crap, people only use him as a refrence when it suits their argument.  They should focus that energy and take the plank out of their own eye.  If you don’t know what that means, I suggest you read the gospel.

@Zooey72:

So knock off the Jesus crap, people only use him as a refrence when it suits their argument.  They should focus that energy and take the plank out of their own eye.  If you don’t know what that means, I suggest you read the gospel.

TY Zooey.  Reminds me of a favorite Pagan bumpersticker:  “Jesus!  Save me from your followers!”

It is a statement on the hypocritical nature of FAR too many Christians, one that is well identified in this thread, especially when you consider the built-in contradictions of the complete Bible (Old, New, and Apocrifa)

BTW:  Congrats on that pending new star Zooey!  How’s that tank feel?

@Mary:

Who would Jesus execute?

Oh, and mary.  This just occured to me.  “Give to Rome what is Rome’s, give to God what is God’s”.

This pretty much says that Christians shouldn’t interfere in government.  So I am guessing that Jesus would not stop capital punishment, esp. since that is the way he “saved” all of us.

Ironically Mary is not a Christian (AFAIR) - nor am i using the gospel as a support against the death penalty, but rather to shoot down Christian arguments for it.

@Yanny:

I’m no fan of capital punishment. I think it’s hipocratic and hurts our nation’s image. We are the only western nation still to execute people.

But while the law stands, it is still law. A jury of his peers sentenced Tookie to be executed. Let the decision stand.

I agree comepletly with this.  Back where I used to live (IL) the Govenor (who was against the death penalty) took every person off of death row before he left office.  No case by case basis, nothing, he didn’t like it, so he used his power to legislate in a way he was never intended to legislate.  This is one of the most horrible abuses of power I have ever seen.

@cystic:

Ironically Mary is not a Christian (AFAIR) - nor am i using the gospel as a support against the death penalty, but rather to shoot down Christian arguments for it.

Than why the spiel about “who would jesus execute?”  Even if she isn’t Christian, she still shouldn’t take what she wants out of the Gospel and leave the rest and try to claim some moral authority by saying her opinion is backed by christ.

I have read “Mein Kamph” (for college).  If you pick and choose (edit heavily) sentences from it a picture can be painted of Hitler only being very patriotic and looking out for the best interests of the German people.  The truth is far from that, but if do to “Mein Kamph” what Christians and others do to the Bible than you can twist it to say just about anything.

The bible contradicts, the Gospel does not.  Chirst is very constant in his message.

Unilateral pardon can be issued when the individual issuing it plans to retire.

No doubt the governator plans to keep his office for some time.  Possibly has reelection plans.
GW can also pardon.  But again, he is aware that congressional elections are less than a year away.  You have at least 4 murder victims worth of supporters who will suddenly be enraged at the diversion of justice.  The clemency supporters would not vote for these guys anyway.

I remember Clinton held all of his pardons until the last week in office.  
Question to Bill Clinton is how many pardons did he give in his first term?

Jesus did not even save himself, nor the two thieves crucified on Calvary with him.

You can argue that Barabbas was saved by the election of the Jewish mob when Pilate gave them the choice to free a prisoner for the traditional Passover holiday.  That would apply to any of the political figures granted the power to free Tookie.  But they know they would suffer for whatever freedom they granted to the convict. Â

Results “might” have been different if this was the last week of Arnold’s last term.  As it is, his hands are washed.

Zooey, no offense but…

People who fall back on some divine, omnipotent, omnipresent divine entity as the basis and foundation of their arguments are rather annoying.  With such people, you can;t argue facts, you can;t use logic.  To debate with such a person is to pound your head on a wall of irrational, unreasoning putrescence of thought.

Some things are worth taking on faith (like what happens to your soul, if you have one, after you die).

But to rely on a text that was not codified as the Gospels until the Council of Nicene nearly 4 centuries after the life of a philosopher known as Yeshuah of Nazareth (Gospels which were selected after excluding hundreds of other writings and POTENTIAL gospels; and Gospels which were further edited by King James 4 centuries ago)…  And then to realize that ALL of those “written” Gospels were transcribed after an extended period of being passed via an oral tradition…

Well, let me just say that debating someone who uses a foundation of a 4 century long version of the Kindergarten Telephone Game played 2 millenia ago as the sole basis for their evaluation of modern society leaves something to be desired in the matter of both logic AND faith.

I am sure you all remember Scott Peterson, who killed his expectant wife Laci.

His case is on automatic appeal.

Who is gonna argue for his life?

I do not recall news of other unidentified bodies washing ashore in the vicinity of SF Bay after his wife and son were found.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scott_Peterson

@ncscswitch:

Zooey, no offense but…

People who fall back on some divine, omnipotent, omnipresent divine entity as the basis and foundation of their arguments are rather annoying.  With such people, you can;t argue facts, you can;t use logic.  To debate with such a person is to pound your head on a wall of irrational, unreasoning putrescence of thought.

Some things are worth taking on faith (like what happens to your soul, if you have one, after you die).

But to rely on a text that was not codified as the Gospels until the Council of Nicene nearly 4 centuries after the life of a philosopher known as Yeshuah of Nazareth (Gospels which were selected after excluding hundreds of other writings and POTENTIAL gospels; and Gospels which were further edited by King James 4 centuries ago)…  And then to realize that ALL of those “written” Gospels were transcribed after an extended period of being passed via an oral tradition…

Well, let me just say that debating someone who uses a foundation of a 4 century long version of the Kindergarten Telephone Game played 2 millenia ago as the sole basis for their evaluation of modern society leaves something to be desired in the matter of both logic AND faith.

I would like to read some of the gospels that “didn’t make the grade” some time just to see how they go with the 4 they picked.

But some things need to be taken on faith.  I can understand someone only reading the gospel and not going any further, their faith telling them that although there was a lot of “revision” the message is still there because God willed it that way.  My problem is with the people who either never took the time to read the book they supposedly have dedicated their life to, or have butchered the content to suit their lifestyle.

Well, then pick up the Dead Sea Scrolls, that is the largest known written collection of materials considered by the Council of Nicene but not selected by the Council to be Gospels.  You can also pick up the Apocrifa which are those books of the Gospels (and portions of books) that WERE determined at Nicene to be Gospels, but which were editted out by King James and are largely excluded from all Protestant New Testaments.