Japan is too strong?

Balance has always been an issue for A&A G40, and the only solution IMO is house rules. Some use an allied bid, some create or modify national objectives, and some make new victory conditions. It’s up to you to find the best house rules that everyone around your gaming table can accept, the question then becomes… how far down the rabbit hole do you wanna go?

Here are my house rules that work for our group, but they may not work for yours.

http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=35941.0

and here is a collaborative project to redesign the game…

http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=36518.0

The consensus among players is that the axis as a whole are to strong. Many people use an allied bid ranging from 12 to 20 IPCs, I’m leaning in that direction myself.

In our grooup J1 has become the standard along with heavy bmr buys for Germnay as of late. Like most J1 attacks we invade into China, kill the Brit BB, take FIC, Kwantung and the Philippines (including killing sz35 mini fleet). On J2 take Malaya (Anz NO) and start grabbing money islands etc…… prob build IC on FIC maybe a second IC to press towards India.

To add to that lately we have also been including hitting the Hawaiian fleet J1. This really sets the USA back because they have lost 5 ships in the first turn. They aren’t capital ships but it forces the US to build in the Pac for the first couple turns (which Germany loves) because they have very little fodder ships to protect their capital ships if they want to come out to play. If the US doesn’t build Pac then Japan can easily threaten to take Hawaii (good swing in income) and make Anz pretty uneasy all as they press towards India.

I’m also thinking about reducing the Japanese air force by a couple planes as you have done. I’m looking at swapping out 4 inf (12 IPCs) in the Siberian stack for an art and a couple mech (also 12 IPCs). It would give the Siberians a little bite out there, and the mech could get back to Moscow.

I agree w/ShadowHAwk as far as you need to nibble at Japan with all Pac powers, but I also think that luck plays too big of a part in Asia. China especially needs to do well in some of those early defensive battles to grind up Japanese ground units. One of the most important battles for China (and Pac allies) is the first attack on Yunnan on J1. Japan attacks w/4 ground units+air and China has 4 def inf. China has to get a hit, but if they get lucky and manage to get two hits then they can easily retake Yunnan, grind up more Japanese ground units and get their 6 IPC NO. This is all great but i think luck has way to much to do with it because if China misses then they have little chance of getting the 6 IPC bonus much less holding the Burma Road and buying art. In games that china can buy art (rare I know) the Japanese ground game changes and the Pac allies might be able to exploit it elsewhere.

On a side note, I have long thought because of the overwhelming Japanese air force that China should have an AA gun in Szech. I even tried to get Larry to add an AA gun to China in the Alpha project, but it didn’t happen. It makes more sense now for China to have an AA gun after the AA gun rules where changed to fire at only 3 planes IMO (wouldn’t get to fire at the entire attacking Japanese air force like before). They could bring it in to def Yunnan if they retake it, or keep it for the last battle. Might also make Japan think twice about doing an early air-sweep on the China stack which they do quite often in games online.

Don’t know what you do with India, but I like to buy mostly mobile units (mech/tank). I know some like to build inf to try to hold off the Japanese as long as possible, but I like to have some other options even with your income plummeting w/J1 attack. Last game a was able to use a mech and air to kill a couple Japanese units that moved up to Shan State, but they normally head west to help out in the Middle East, Egypt or Russia.

Speaking of Russia they need help to stay alive or at least delay the battle for Moscow. You have to get UK ftrs into position early so they can fly to Moscow. That might include some of the Indian planes going through Persia. I will sacrifice India to save Moscow but that’s just my opinion.

Try adding 1 Tank to Belarus and 1 to Archangel for the Soviet Union, Add 1 Artillery to Szechwan and 1 to Kweichow for China.

In this game, it isn’t only about the weaker player being on the defence, but also the weaker side (even if played by a stronger player).
If the axis play a strong game without tactical errors, the allies have no place they can get a grip on. They can attack but will be driven off again and the axis will come out of it only stronger than before and gain the upper hand economically in the mean time. OR: the allies do get a grip on a certain map, but then the axis win on the other map…

What A&AG40 needs (as a whole, so it’s not just Japan), is the re-introduction of that fear factor for the axis. They should fear the passing of time again. They should really feel the pressure to win before turn 10 (I just picked an arbitrary number here) or else loose the game for certain.
As it is now, if playing as the axis, I personally do not fear the passing of time at all. I use it to crush the allied economy where they are not opposing the axis, always getting on top around turn 12 or so…

Three basic allied strategies:
1. USA puts more focus in Europe -> Germany has a hard time crushing/isolating Russia, Japan can grow into a monster.
2. USA puts more focus in Pacific  -> Japan struggles, but now Germany becomes the monster and can crush Moscow and/or the Middle East.
3. USA divides their focus evenly  -> The allies will not get any grip anywhere.

In those three situations, this is what the axis can make happen economically (IPCs per turn):
1. Japan gets >100. Germany and Italy ~70. Total axis 160-170, Total allies 140-150.
2. Germany + Italy will get to ~125 together, Japan struggles to keep 60. Total axis 175-185, Total allies ~160.
3. Never mind. Axis will get even closer to 200.

I know the economical situation is not the only thing that counts, but with the economical game, the allies do not have the military to drive the axis off somewhere to rebalance the economical situation. In such a situation, the side that is on top economically, will win if played out till the bitter end.
So in global, the allies have a focus-issue they don’t have when playing A&A Europe40 or A&A Pacific40. In both other games they have less to spend, but their income is less easily overthrown.

Therefore I daresay that the real issue with Global, is the income of the USA. In global their income is almost halved compared to what they have in each of the standalone games. I can see why that is because if the USA can spend in global what they have in A&AEurope + A&APacific combined, they can focus all that on 1 map and the axis can never win (much like the real war). One possible solution to that is to also split the USA economies AND their armies as well (built in the Pacific has to stay in the pacific). Same for Europe. To correct for such arbitrary rules, the USA should eventually be allowed to move parts of their navy and/or airforce from one map to the other but I haven’t yet figured out how…

Nice post ShadowHAwk, and I agree 100%. You have to be semi aggressive and kill Japanese ground units in Asia every chance you get early. Trading money islands with Japan as the game goes on is a must. Force them to trade transports taking money islands and destroyers trading blockers, as you counter with a sub and air when their destroyers are exposed. Allies flooding the pac with subs can be helpful mid game. Yea they can kill a few of you subs if you spread them out, but it leaves their destroyers exposed weakening the main fleet, plus you may get a chance to convoy. Japan doesn’t want to buy ships, they want to buy ground units. Force them to do things they don’t want to.

@ShadowHAwk:

Lets look at a typical J1 attack. your BB will have hit the cruiser ( asume that that happened ) What prevents the UK pac from taking FIC with their transport. So now japan cannot hit yuhan ……

This statement is so funny to me personally because as Japan when I hit that BB w/cruiser and 2 bmrs it seems like about half the time the BB gets to roll twice and I have lost the cruiser and a bmr a couple times. You know what I’m talking about, you have that one battle that has gone wrong a couple times and makes you cringe lol. I normally put the Formosa ftr in that battle just to make sure.

Anyway yea great point about taking back FIC if the cruiser isn’t blocking you. It would PO Japan because they almost always build an IC there J2 (delay).

To ItIsILeClerc, you bring up a great point. Before as the allies you would defend Moscow (and other key places) weather the storm and go offensive. Now the time factor thing has changed, and the axis can actually make it their advantage. The allies still need to defend/delay and play a pretty flawless game in order to have a slim chance of winning. Its seems like the axis need to make a mistake, or get horrible dice to give the allies the upper hand.

Huh, have to say after playing this game 200+ times against some of the best players, that Japan is the weaker of the 2 main Axis powers. Economically Japan can at best get to 70-80.  That is against (if you go KJF) 70 from US, 15+ from Anzac, say 10 average from UK Pac, plus China and maybe 18 Russian infantry.  No way they can hold out against that.

If Japan goes J1 then the US goes right for the jugular, i.e. sz6 and Korea backed by the USSR.  J1 usually doesn’t work out for Japan. It can’t take out India, get the money islands, and defend the homeland all at once.

Indeed, the purpose of the 20ish bid is to shore up Allied control of the middle east so that by the time Moscow falls, Japan has been collapsed and the allies can rush to secure Cairo/London before the Axis can turn around to them.

Some of the best allied players lean on Germany hard at the start and allow Japan to expand with the knowledge that even if Japan gets India and the Money Islands, capturing Sydney or Hawaii against concerted defense is no simple task.  Indeed, if the allies play it right they can contain Germany and then reroute to stop Japan cold from getting the 6th VC.

Well said Karl7.

Tolstoj, how long have you been playing and roughly how many games do you have under your belt?  At the risk of sounding condescending (not trying to be) I feel like your sentiment is common among players who are relatively new to the game, as at first glance Japan looks unbeatable.

With some good teamwork from the Allies, Japan can be pestered to the point of slowing them down and making it fairly difficult to get that 6th VC.  I’m actually a big fan of using the Siberian troops to pester Japan (turn 1 Buryatia, turn 2 Amur, turn 3 take Manchuria or Korea, or as Karl suggested let America take Korea then reinforce).  I do not agree that using those men to harass Japan spells instant victory for Germany

Better off putting that factory in Shangtung as opposed to Shanghai.  You can get south just as quickly but you are able to reach Manchuria in a turn in case you need to deal with Russians/Americans there  :wink:

What China can do is take Yunan back turn 1 and turn 2, thus forcing Japan to keep taking it back, and keep enough troops in Szchewan at the end of turn 2 that Japan has to commit a considerable amount of troops to Yunan if they plan on keeping it from there on out (which they can do if need be).  However, if the Siberian troops march into Korea or Manchuria then Japan cannot just say “Screw the north.”

That’s why I believe the key to stopping Japan is to try and make them and do everything, which they cannot.  They cannot wipe out China, AND keep the Siberian troops at bay, AND take India, AND fight back the American navy, AND hang onto the money islands, AND hold a 6th VC, etc.  Now, the allies have to play a great game to make these things happen, but it CAN be done is the point.

Japan doesn’t have to do everything to win the game. They just need to destroy China and UK Pac while maintaining deterrent against the US/ANZAC combined fleet… and they can. Then once Germany and Italy inevitably destroy Russia, the Axis have the economic advantage and can impose their will by marching the units that were used against Russia down to Africa, where there will be insufficient resistance to stop them. Russia can’t do anything more on that front than the Chinese can, and by the time the US masses enough ships to be a real threat Japan can match them in builds while maintaining a positional advantage.

Best I can tell, this map is simply a broken game. I would love to learn differently but I am searching and searching and can find no examples of a good Axis player getting beaten.

@Nippon-koku:

Better off putting that factory in Shangtung as opposed to Shanghai.  You can get south just as quickly but you are able to reach Manchuria in a turn in case you need to deal with Russians/Americans there  :wink:

What China can do is take Yunan back turn 1 and turn 2, thus forcing Japan to keep taking it back, and keep enough troops in Szchewan at the end of turn 2 that Japan has to commit a considerable amount of troops to Yunan if they plan on keeping it from there on out (which they can do if need be).  However, if the Siberian troops march into Korea or Manchuria then Japan cannot just say “Screw the north.”

That’s why I believe the key to stopping Japan is to try and make them and do everything, which they cannot.  They cannot wipe out China, AND keep the Siberian troops at bay, AND take India, AND fight back the American navy, AND hang onto the money islands, AND hold a 6th VC, etc.  Now, the allies have to play a great game to make these things happen, but it CAN be done is the point.

China can’t stack Szechwan to retake Yunnan on C1 because Japan will just attack the stack with its 20 planes and kill it, so the Chinese troops have to cede Yunnan after only 1 turn.

@calvinhobbesliker:

China can’t stack Szechwan to retake Yunnan on C1 because Japan will just attack the stack with its 20 planes and kill it, so the Chinese troops have to cede Yunnan after only 1 turn.

Want to make sure I’m understanding you:

You’re saying that Japan would stack, say Kwangsi, with all its planes and attack the Chinese units in Szechwan on J2?  As the China player, I’d gladly welcome that.  Figure Szechwan should have 10 inf and a fighter, meaning 4 hits.  If you want to sacrifice four planes to take out some Chinese infantry be my guest.

Not only that, one could easily add some beef to Szechwan on R2 (they could get 2 mechs and 2 tanks there), which now means Japan is looking at a loss of 6 planes on the first round of combat, and 2 more on the next round (Japan’s 20 planes you mentioned should account for 12 hits, leaving two tanks and a fighter).  So now Japan is giving up 8 planes to take out Chinese ground units and 4 Russian units?  Again, I’d gladly welcome that and I’d wager to guess that, under those conditions, you wouldn’t even launch that attack to begin with, leaving China free to retake Yunan on C2.

But let’s say you still do that attack and lose the 8 planes, fine.  What about the 18 Russia troops in Amur that I’m about to move into Korea or Manchuria on turn 3?  Let’s say I choose Manchuria: how are you taking that back on J3?  It’s possible, but you’d have to commit a ton of resources, including committing transports and just about all your remaining airforce, meaning 6 AA shots for Russia before the battle even begins.  After that battle Japan would be down most of its Asian ground force and around 10 planes.  If you don’t attack, or the attack fails, now China can spend its money (admittedly not much) on units in Manchuria and start collecting a little each turn, while Russia looms as a major annoyance.

This sort of discussion is why I never buy the idea that the Axis are unstoppable.  Are these moves game winners on their own?  Probably not.  But if the Allies work as a team they can come up with plenty of ways to disrupt the Axis powers.