Paris Riots

@Rune:

Um, try to come up with an intellectual argument if you want to go up against me.  I’m not advocating the death of anyone, are you?  Grow up.

BURN, Rune Blade, BURN !!!

Oh yeah, but don’t die … just suffer horrible, panful and staying deep burns… maybe a coma, yeah, that would be ok, that’s not death, is it ?

And before you answer, you might want to ask CC what i mean when i say “Great weather, isn’t it?”

@Zooey72:

I think Germany will have similiar problems, just not as bad.  And if push really came to shove they could tell the turks there to get the hell out.  Neither the original people who came to germany were made citizens nor their children are citizens.  If this kind of insane crap goes on they could theoreticaly find themselves on a boat back to Turkey ((and REAL poverty) at least as of 5 years ago according to my old college prof.)

Yes, there is a lot of talk about that. Though I perosnally think the turks are not the problem. Turkey want to be “part of the West” thus anyone who sees himself as “turk” will try to behave and allow Turkey to enter the EU. Also, the legislation has improved a bit (by a red-rgreen gov’t, and against resistance of the conservatives: planned was a much “better” immigration law but it had to be scaled down due to the resistance … and now, legally, the pope needs to lose german citizenship) allowing later generations of immigrants to gain citizenship quite easy (but still no double citizenship). Also, we speak of the third generation of turks in Germany. The really scary thing is, that their level of fluency in german is lower than the one of the second generation. A very clear warning sign that something goes very wrong in the integration process. Also, if you keep being a foreigner, you see the state in a different view:
I for my part think the Russian-Germans are more in the situation like the rioters is France. They are german citizens, officially with the
same rights as all germans. Still, they are not integrated, and often not allowed to take part in the wealth, with less chances to find a job just because of their name and the suburb they come from (just like in France).
Plus, if they become criminals, they then tend to be more violent than turks or other germans (in that order).

There is no such thing as “cheap labor”.

Unfortunately, there is … from what i read, the USA are noticing that as well at the moment. And Western Europe will never be able to beat the prices of China, East Asia or Eastern Europe alone. That is a problem if you have “underqualified” people in your nations workforce. The market does not care for them and our understanding of humanity should mean that we can not leave them alone. Unfortunately, we in fact do, and now we are faced the bill. So, all i can hope, is that the “in fact do” changes to a “in fact did”.

Either you come to this country legaly or you get out.

Funny that you just spoke of France, and without any real notice shift to the USA. Would you mind to say so next time, so that i don’t have to wonder for a few sentences what the heck you are suddenly talking about?

They do work that Americans won’t do for crap wages.

Be prepared that this will happen more and more often. It is said that Germanies economy is “globalised” 4 times as much as the US economy. Otherwise, you will lose all cheap production, all out-sourcable cheap services etc. With no real social system, this will make the people work for the crap wages, just to survive.

That is the truth.  These jobs must get done, and w/o the criminals doing them companies will be forced to raise the wages of these jobs to attract AMERICANS to do them.

No :). It is always (by market fans) said you have a choice. Unfortunately, if the choice is starvation or crap wage … then people will take the crap wage. The situation is going to get worse in the US, believe me. The problem is not with illegal immigrants.

If these things had been done in Eurupe than they would not have the problem they have now.

It also is not the problem here. Even turks are too expensive in Germany. The costs of living are just too high for anyone to compete with production in China or services from Rumania or Polans (who in turn are pressured by Unkrainians and Belorussians).

BURN, Rune Blade, BURN !!!

Oh yeah, but don’t die … just suffer horrible, panful and staying deep burns… maybe a coma, yeah, that would be ok, that’s not death, is it ?

And before you answer, you might want to ask CC what i mean when i say “Great weather, isn’t it?”

If you have to resort to personal attacks, you’ve already lost the argument.  Enjoy your schooling by the mind of Rune Blade.Â

you are prooF positive that I must continue to do what I do least others be polluted by ignorance and liberal personal attacks.

It does seem possible here in the US that some S. American apple pickers will knock over a wasps nests and two of them get stung a few dozen times.

One of them will have an allergic reaction, but the migrant workers in the apple orchard do not have medical insurance so the allergy kills one.  This could become a focal anger point among all of the illegal migrant low wage workers who riot, pillage, and burn leadinng to another deadly wave of forest fires…

@Rune:

And before you answer, you might want to ask CC what i mean when i say “Great weather, isn’t it?”

If you have to resort to personal attacks,…

If you had followed my advice, you would have seen that it was no personal attack.

ImpLy,
I musyt disagree with the alert levels being set the same in all countries(all at level three if #d).  At no time in World history have all the countries mentioned, including Canada, been on the same level of concern/alert.

A humorous viewpoint….Examples given,  WWII UK became concerned after Poland fell, France became concerned after France fell, USSR became concerned when it was attacked and the US became concerned when it appeared UK might fall.

@F_alk:

@Zooey72:

I think Germany will have similiar problems, just not as bad.  And if push really came to shove they could tell the turks there to get the hell out.  Neither the original people who came to germany were made citizens nor their children are citizens.  If this kind of insane crap goes on they could theoreticaly find themselves on a boat back to Turkey ((and REAL poverty) at least as of 5 years ago according to my old college prof.)

Yes, there is a lot of talk about that. Though I perosnally think the turks are not the problem. Turkey want to be “part of the West” thus anyone who sees himself as “turk” will try to behave and allow Turkey to enter the EU. Also, the legislation has improved a bit (by a red-rgreen gov’t, and against resistance of the conservatives: planned was a much “better” immigration law but it had to be scaled down due to the resistance … and now, legally, the pope needs to lose german citizenship) allowing later generations of immigrants to gain citizenship quite easy (but still no double citizenship). Also, we speak of the third generation of turks in Germany. The really scary thing is, that their level of fluency in german is lower than the one of the second generation. A very clear warning sign that something goes very wrong in the integration process. Also, if you keep being a foreigner, you see the state in a different view:
I for my part think the Russian-Germans are more in the situation like the rioters is France. They are german citizens, officially with the
same rights as all germans. Still, they are not integrated, and often not allowed to take part in the wealth, with less chances to find a job just because of their name and the suburb they come from (just like in France).
Plus, if they become criminals, they then tend to be more violent than turks or other germans (in that order).

There is no such thing as “cheap labor”.

Unfortunately, there is … from what i read, the USA are noticing that as well at the moment. And Western Europe will never be able to beat the prices of China, East Asia or Eastern Europe alone. That is a problem if you have “underqualified” people in your nations workforce. The market does not care for them and our understanding of humanity should mean that we can not leave them alone. Unfortunately, we in fact do, and now we are faced the bill. So, all i can hope, is that the “in fact do” changes to a “in fact did”.

Either you come to this country legaly or you get out.

Funny that you just spoke of France, and without any real notice shift to the USA. Would you mind to say so next time, so that i don’t have to wonder for a few sentences what the heck you are suddenly talking about?

They do work that Americans won’t do for crap wages.

Be prepared that this will happen more and more often. It is said that Germanies economy is “globalised” 4 times as much as the US economy. Otherwise, you will lose all cheap production, all out-sourcable cheap services etc. With no real social system, this will make the people work for the crap wages, just to survive.

That is the truth.  These jobs must get done, and w/o the criminals doing them companies will be forced to raise the wages of these jobs to attract AMERICANS to do them.

No :). It is always (by market fans) said you have a choice. Unfortunately, if the choice is starvation or crap wage … then people will take the crap wage. The situation is going to get worse in the US, believe me. The problem is not with illegal immigrants.

If these things had been done in Eurupe than they would not have the problem they have now.

It also is not the problem here. Even turks are too expensive in Germany. The costs of living are just too high for anyone to compete with production in China or services from Rumania or Polans (who in turn are pressured by Unkrainians and Belorussians).

Yes, I down shiffted and should have led into it better.  However you took me out of context quite a few times so I think we are even as far as things go (btw, thank you for the civil post even though we disagree).

Cheap labor does come with a price, the price Eurupe is paying right now.  I won’t go into every Eurpean country because the reason they have allowed the influx of immigrants varies.  My point is that as bad as the rioters in France feel that they have been misstreated is nowhere near the poverty they would have if they were in their home countries.  However they feel that they are cheated out of the wealth, but keep their nationalistic identity (which in their home country would mean they work for a dollar a day).  I do think that the Islamic countries are back a$$ward as far as how they conduct government and day to day life.  The immigrants in Eurupe do not look at themselves as Eurupeans, they cling to the nationalistic insanity that is destroying their own home countries.  All the while never seeing it as a benefit that they have the simlpe things like running water and food to eat which they would not have if not being in Eurupe.

The first influx of immigrant labor after WW2 to Eurupe was more than happy to take crap jobs for crap pay (remind you of what is going on now in the US?)  because it was much better than what they had.  Their children want more, and they should.  But there has been no integration.  (Down shifting to the US now).  The US laws now, did not invite the illegals to come here (at least on paper, our government loves the cheap labor they are getting) and we either need to integrate or get caught into the same trap you have in Eurupe.  We need to be selective as far as who comes here.  Not the open door amnesty policy that Bush proposed (and was shot down by the American people because it would have been political suicide for the republicans).

As I said, if you come to this country legaly than you should have every benefit that comes with being an American.  If you come here illegaly you should be given nothing.  Our illegal invasion must stop or in a decade or 2 we will be in the same situation as Eurupe is now.

@Zooey72:

Cheap labor does come with a price, the price Eurupe is paying right now.  I won’t go into every Eurpean country because the reason they have allowed the influx of immigrants varies.

immigration has nothing to do with “cheap labor” and the economic problems. Just like immigration in the US has nothing to do with the economic “battle” over textiles you have fought with China. Cheap labor is eve ncheaper outside the wealthy countries, where the costs of living are high and thus the “market” (that is jobless human beings, and not human “ressources”) demands higher wages. And they will be higher as in other -poorer- countries you can “live” from a few US$/day.

My point is that as bad as the rioters in France feel that they have been misstreated is nowhere near the poverty they would have if they were in their home countries.  However they feel that they are cheated out of the wealth, but keep their nationalistic identity

Then you are misinformed. Their home country now is France. They speak french. Their rap songs are french. They want the rights and respect that any french citizen can demand from France. They have not kept their grand-parents identity.

It has become much more about respect than anything else. Only after Sarkozy called them “scum”, the situation totally escalated.

The immigrants in Eurupe do not look at themselves as Eurupeans, they cling to the nationalistic insanity that is destroying their own home countries.

Again you are not fully informed. In France, the second and third generations immigrants see themselves as French. In Germany, the turkish community sees itself as european, as they see Turkey as european. The other great block of immigrants in Germany are Russo-germans, both european countries.

The first influx of immigrant labor after WW2 to Eurupe was more than happy to take crap jobs for crap pay (remind you of what is going on now in the US?)  because it was much better than what they had.  Their children want more, and they should.  But there has been no integration.

Most often, the pay was not even crap. The first wave of immigration -in germany- was mainly from countries that had not lost so many men in WW2 (Turkey, Portugal) and with the fast growing economy, we needed men to work there. In the 60s, we still had zero unemployment in Germany. So, the first wave was paid really well! I suppose that it was similar in the other countries that had suffered a lot in the war.
Bu you are right in the other point: there has been not enough integration.

And please:
Europe

It is not that hard to spell.

Am I bad (the spelling), had quite a few beers in me when I posted last night.

What you posted is all fine and good.  Great, the rioters are french.  Great they see themselves as Europeans.  You can dance around the problem all you like, but the rioters are muslims.  I guess the best way to say it is that because you invited these people into your countries than it is your problem.  You made your islamic bed, now you must lie in it.  In the US at least we have not invited the illegals here, so we do have the moral authority to tell them to get out.  We just don’t have politicians to do the right thing because they are all bought off by big bussiness.

And btw, these rioters are scum.

@Zooey72:

You can dance around the problem all you like, but the rioters are muslims.  I guess the best way to say it is that because you invited these people into your countries than it is your problem. …  In the US at least we have not invited the illegals here…And btw, these rioters are scum.

Yes, it is our problem, but the problem is not that they are different, the problem is that “we” can’t accept them because of their difference. Shutting out immigrants won’t work; we are an aging society, we need young blood. But we have to learn quick to accept the immigrants and their children in every way.
Also, in Europe they are not illegal, so i am not sure how that can be connected.
Plus: Sarkozy called not only the rioters scum, but the people of the suburbs. That turned many young angry men there into even more rioters, he poured oil into the fire and is now surprised at how high the flames are.

I did a search and found items dated 11/14 about the sittuation on 11/13 in France.

The French riots have disappeared from the news.  It’s nice to know France,or shouild I say Europe, has been able to solve the recent problems so quickly and quietly.  I just wish that the USan MEdia would share good news about other parts of our lilttle blue marble.

It seems the EVIL USan MEdia shows it’s only interested in bad news be it UScan, Euro, ASIan or other.

I did find this…
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/national/1103AP_Wounded_France.html
I had heard the spring and summer parts…unseasoned prior to riots.
Is the implication that France will have a harsh ‘winter?’

Anyone know of more recent updates?

Thanks in advance.

@El:

The French riots have disappeared from the news.  It’s nice to know France,or shouild I say Europe, has been able to solve the recent problems so quickly and quietly.

Well they are still there, and only slightly less than before (still about 200 burning cars a night). But you are right, they are not “news” anymore… Wait for the next death to see it hop into the spotlight again.

They burned 130 more cars yesterday… The news is being pushed down by pro- french influences (liberal intellectuals who dont want to see their center of progressive culture diminished by the cold truth). The problem  is not abating and  is still unsolved.

@F_alk:

@Zooey72:

You can dance around the problem all you like, but the rioters are muslims.  I guess the best way to say it is that because you invited these people into your countries than it is your problem. …  In the US at least we have not invited the illegals here…And btw, these rioters are scum.

Yes, it is our problem, but the problem is not that they are different, the problem is that “we” can’t accept them because of their difference. Shutting out immigrants won’t work; we are an aging society, we need young blood. But we have to learn quick to accept the immigrants and their children in every way.
Also, in Europe they are not illegal, so i am not sure how that can be connected.
Plus: Sarkozy called not only the rioters scum, but the people of the suburbs. That turned many young angry men there into even more rioters, he poured oil into the fire and is now surprised at how high the flames are.

We are just not going to agree on this.  IMO all of Eurupe is heading for the same fate that destroyed the Austria Hungarian empire (and later still, Yugoslavia).

As far as picking immigrants, France could not of picked a worse group to clash with their secular socialistic government.  This has little to do with Islam being horrible, I think there may be places in the US many could settle and no one would interfere with their customs.  The Bible belt jumps to mind, the amish (spelling?) are another.  The Christians here may not agree with them, but if they kept a good yard and had a job no one would say a thing (other than the bible thumpers who would probably bug them to convert, at worst they are annoying).  Islam does not sit well with a secular state.

I have known a great deal of people from the middle east.  They are not rare here.  But we were much smarter in how we let people into our country (not just the middle east) than Europe has been.  Heck, most of the muslims I have known have been quite a bit higher than me in the economic chain.

@Imperious:

The news is being pushed down by pro- french influences (liberal intellectuals who dont want to see their center of progressive culture diminished by the cold truth).

No, the news is no “news” anymore. We have seen that everywhere. I wonder how many “conservative black-african-dictator friends who don’t want to see their business endagered” you need to have out there to suppress the daily news from Congo, Nigeria etc. to keep your argument alive.

@Zooey72:

As far as picking immigrants, France could not of picked a worse group to clash with their secular socialistic government.  This has little to do with Islam being horrible, I think there may be places in the US many could settle and no one would interfere with their customs.  The Bible belt jumps to mind, the amish (spelling?) are another.  The Christians here may not agree with them, but if they kept a good yard and had a job no one would say a thing (other than the bible thumpers who would probably bug them to convert, at worst they are annoying).  Islam does not sit well with a secular state.

I disagree.
Islam goes quite well in Turkey.
And the US bible belt would be a pretty hard place i guess. Would you like to have people slaughter lambs in their backyards, without much practice on that except for one slaughter a year (roughly)? And of course, trying to convert a muslim is about the worst crime you can commit in their books. A converted ex-muslim is automatically without rights and free to be killed.

But we were much smarter in how we let people into our country (not just the middle east) than Europe has been.  Heck, most of the muslims I have known have been quite a bit higher than me in the economic chain.

That’s absolutly correct. But we are talking children of immigrants here. It is even worse then, that we do not manage to give them a decent education.
Another thing … education reduces the risk of riots and helps acceptance and integration … but it doesn’t do so automatically: many terrorists of 9/11 were highly educated and students at a technical university in Germany.

@Soon_U_Die:

Not sure how you can get to the point in this thread……about needing to accept your immigrants.  And yet in the other thread, you thoroughly trash the Op Ed piece that was essentially trying to make that point.  Only suggesting that it might be easier to accept a multiplicity of difference rather than one difference.  Overly simplistic I agree with you…but still essentially the same point.  You need to find a way to accept.

Well, the Op Ed wrote that the multiplicity does not exist, but only a binary difference, the way i read the article. Plus, the way it was written … well, i do fight back :).
And i fully agree, Europe needs to overcome the denail of equal rights and treatment of its immigrants and later generations.

@F_alk:

I disagree.
Islam goes quite well in Turkey.

Islam also did quite well in Iraq . . . .

And the US bible belt would be a pretty hard place i guess. Would you like to have people slaughter lambs in their backyards, without much practice on that except for one slaughter a year (roughly)? And of course, trying to convert a muslim is about the worst crime you can commit in their books. A converted ex-muslim is automatically without rights and free to be killed.

well . . . from the POV of most secular/Christian government, i’m sure this “not being without rights” thing may be circumvented . . . .
also something about keeping one’s life and losing one’s soul is also a consideration by us Christianites.  Yes Yanny/Janus - i know you believe that conversion is a terrible thing as well.  But as all those gay guys at the pool told me - don’t knock it 'till you’ve tried it  :-D

(no - i havn’t tried that  :mrgreen:)

ROFL  :lol:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20051117/wl_nm/france_riots_dc

Things are now “back to normal” in France  :-D  Excellent - although I find it disturbing that normally 100 cars burn every night.  Is this normal for all western nations (in per capita terms that is)?

Hopefully the leaders and people in France will be able to do whatever is necessary to keep this from happening again (no, IL, I’m not talking about deportations here!).  Probably some form of anti-discrimination laws ??  I really do not have the answers for this problem.

Unfortunately, I think it more likely that these people will be swept under the rug again and this event forgotten - until the next riots.

@Yanny:

I can see it now…

November 5th, 2005: France Surrenders.

Does this “joke” with prejudices from US-citizens on France allow me to make “jokes” with prejudices from Germans on the USA?

@Rune:

BURN FRANCE BURN!!!

Why is this thread still unlocekd?