Yeah, I really can’t imagine what it is like to be living in these communities while this is going on. The closest thing I can relate to would be power outages, ice storms, or the tornados when I was growing up in Missouri - which is nothing in comparison.
I wouldn’t wish these on our shortsighted, selfcentered friends here on this board - I’d rather they mature enough to realize this is a real tragedy.
Community is a great answer to the WHY question! Its not an easy thing to do considering the barriers of location, economics, differing culture, and even differing languages. It is possible however - for example look at the radical changes in the US with regards to the racial segregation of the 1860’s to 1960’s and the great changes in the last 40 years with race relations. The fact that this isn’t happening in the US (there are nearly as many muslems here as there are in France) despite the Iraq war may be due in part because of our desegregation and equal opportunity efforts. Even with 5 million muslems in the US, AQ had to import bombers from Saudi Arabia for 911 (yeah, I know there were a few Americans in AQ - but not many considering the population of Saudi Arabia isn’t much bigger than this). I think it will take a great commitment on the part of French society (similar to the EO and discrimination laws the US enacted) to really solve the root of the problem.
Oh yeah - and Imp-y - quite funny. Of course you (as the whole world seems to) left out the Canadians.
I thought the French and Canadians were the same thing… ooops my bad!! :? :-D
I keep thinking of the movie “Natural Born Killers”. At one point the 2 sociopaths befriend an Indian. The indian tells a story about a woman who found a snake frozen in ice. She thaws the ice, and nurses the snake back to health. Than the snake bites her, and she yells out “how could you do this after all I have done for you!” The reply from the snake was “bitch, you knew I was a snake!”
Its been at least 7 or 8 years since I seen the movie. So some of what I said may not be percise. But that was the jist of it.
I don’t fear or hate muslims in this country. There may be some terrorist cells, but they are the exception. I am not Muslim, but I don’t think for a second that the same kind of hate mongering that is happening in Eurupe happens here.
Look at france, really think about it. They love to be “better than you”. That is part of their mentality. American, British, German, Italian (even muslim) they think that they are more “evolved” than everyone else, and we are all ignorant savages. Part of the thinking is the socialist utopia. Which may seem nice on paper, (we don’t care about where you come from) but the reality is they care more than almost anyone else. They look down on people. The arabs and africans they welcomed into their country decades ago was a sign of their “evolvedness”. But when it came time for some real social equality, “screw them…”
The rioters may have french citizenship, but they are not French. Neither side has tried to integrate because the french are arogant, and the rioters are brainwashed.
For the most part in the US our muslims are integrated. The only recruiting place for muslim nuts are our prisons. In France it is the local mosque (sp?).
@Imperious:
(social democrat…)
Britain
France
Germany
Sweden
Italy
Finland
Norway
Denmark
Netherlands
Belgium
SpainYeah… seems like some really unsuccessful countries to me.
The distribution of the United States actually makes the most wealthy country in the world look like an Agrarian nation in terms of level of human security. I’d quote you the line from the excellent book Sacred and Secular, by Norris and Inglehart (probably the two best empircal political scientists in the world).
He is speaking about socialist nations. Only France and Micheal Moore fits the bill as a true Socialist nation. Spain is getting close, while the others have some policies but are really “mixed economies”.And BTW a line from a book does not make something “the truth” in spite of sales to Berkely students or Rush Limbaughs book store.
To correct you, socialism can work. It “worked” in Nazi Germany. The economy got better blah blah blah. I won’t go into a huge history lesson over why the nazis were wrong, because anyone posting on an axis and allies board should know that. But what people like falk equate socialism to a welfare state, and that does not work.
Sorry, I stopped reading at that point.
Sorry, I also stopped reading after this point as well, Mary. Victory was won a while ago with you.
F_alk, I don’t even bother responding to your posts anymore. It is not worth my time.
I am a firm believer in my philosophy. Whether you agree with it or not is not my concern. What I will say to all of this is this: When a great nation such as the United States will stand up for anyone in need and never ask for a thing in return except friendship and then have those so-called friends (i.e. France) to stab us in the back every chance they get because of their arrogant nature, yeah, I’m going to curse out at France. Especially France.
Look what those idiots in the French press said about America after Katrina hit. It was all a bunch of celebratory banter congratulating themselves on what a find nation they have and that they don’t have the problems America has while enjoying the misery of the citizens of New Orleans. Now all of a sudden, Muslim terrorists are burning schools, buildings, cars, property in over 300 cities with no end in site thanks to a weak-kneed, liberal pandering, social inept French governemtn under Chirac.
Yes, Now France gets theirs! Thousands of US servicemen died to liberate that country and they have not paid one whit in return.
So yes, I say with much glee……“BURN FRANCE BURN”…and I will smile when I do it, especiallly if it makes the libs angry.
Rune Blade
To correct you, socialism can work. It “worked” in Nazi Germany. The economy got better blah blah blah. I won’t go into a huge history lesson over why the nazis were wrong, because anyone posting on an axis and allies board should know that. But what people like falk equate socialism to a welfare state, and that does not work.
I think that if history serves me correctly that even France was more productive as a country while under Nazi occupation. Hmmmm…
Rune Blade
"So yes, I say with much glee……“BURN FRANCE BURN”…and I will smile when I do it, especiallly if it makes the libs angry.
Rune Blade"
"I think that if history serves me correctly that even France was more productive as a country while under Nazi occupation. Hmmmm…
Rune Blade"
This is much worse than what Falk got a warning about. Do we really need this type of trolling in the forum?
@cystic:
One answer is “community”. We are getting further from community throughout the world - and it seems that the more industrialized nations are in more danger than those that are developing. My hometown of Winnipeg is nearly 700 000 people, however we have a “small town mentality”.
Yes and No. The suburbs that are rioting are very communal. They are just not allowed to participate in France’s everyday life and wealth.
I agree though that the invasion of the market into areas where it has nothing to do is dangerous and IMO has already overstepped many lines.
Perhaps religion is more a key factor than we wish to consider? The places in my province where a large proportion of the populace attends sunday morning services have a very low incidence of this kind of problem. Is it possible that increasing secularism with decreasing communal spirit combine to enhance the social isolation and desperation people are feeling?
Religion “helps”, probably the main reason why Marx called it “opium for the people”. Yet, i don’t think it explains the riots. It explains why “the bearded” can calm down the protests. But to say “more religion would help” might be very counterproductive, as the “More religion” offered there is only offered by muslim fuindamentalists. The secularised societey has to find other ways to tackle this problems, and it has to change in itself, by letting actions follow the words of “Egalite” and be equal to the people. That is something where the US is ahead of us, when many questions are illegal in your job interview and on application.
This is much worse than what Falk got a warning about. Do we really need this type of trolling in the forum?
Mary, Mary, Mary, If you don’t like what you read, just turn the page. :roll:
Rune Blade
The kind of shit you post gives us all a black eye. If we allow that, what do we say if some nutjob comes on posting “DIE, Marines, DIE!” everytime we lose a guy over in Iraq?
Okay, lets get back on topic.
The riots appear to calming down.
I think Germany will have similiar problems, just not as bad. And if push really came to shove they could tell the turks there to get the hell out. Neither the original people who came to germany were made citizens nor their children are citizens. If this kind of insane crap goes on they could theoreticaly find themselves on a boat back to Turkey ((and REAL poverty) at least as of 5 years ago according to my old college prof.)
What is happening in Eurupe (France specificaly) is the exact reason that GWB and anyone who agrees with an amnesty program should be politicaly crucified. No work program what so ever should be instated. There is no such thing as “cheap labor”. The criminals who broke the law getting into this country illegaly have children here that won’t be content with min. wage the way their parents are. They will grow up bitter and resenting the US and you will see much of the same here as is going on in France.
Either you come to this country legaly or you get out. However, anyone found coming in illegaly should have to serve a year hard labor than deported so as to have a detterant to people trying over and over again. The law of being an American citizen just for being born here should be removed, and anyone who claims citizenship based off that have that citizenship removed. You are from the country that your parents were citizens of.
This myth of “they do work that Americans will not do” is just that - myth. They do work that Americans won’t do for crap wages. That is the truth. These jobs must get done, and w/o the criminals doing them companies will be forced to raise the wages of these jobs to attract AMERICANS to do them. Criminals doing the jobs pay higher profits for the companies, and they in turn influence the government to do nothing.
I welcome anyone who comes to this country legaly. Immigrants made this country great. But people crossing our borders illegaly should not be given one iota of consideration. If they are hit by a car they should recieve no help, just a hertz to get the body off the road. Companies who hire illegals should have their CEOs who made the decision serve hard time (not a white collar jail). Politicians who support aiding the law breakers in ways like giving the licenses, and being against common sense approaches like making forging documents harder - should be run out of office (and some jail time).
If these things had been done in Eurupe than they would not have the problem they have now. If we don’t do these things now you can expect the same thing here in a decade or 2 with Mexicans complaining that the South West is really theirs.
The kind of sh*t you post gives us all a black eye. If we allow that, what do we say if some nutjob comes on posting “DIE, Marines, DIE!” everytime we lose a guy over in Iraq?
Um, try to come up with an intellectual argument if you want to go up against me. I’m not advocating the death of anyone, are you? Grow up.
Rune Blade
@Rune:
Um, try to come up with an intellectual argument if you want to go up against me. I’m not advocating the death of anyone, are you? Grow up.
BURN, Rune Blade, BURN !!!
Oh yeah, but don’t die … just suffer horrible, panful and staying deep burns… maybe a coma, yeah, that would be ok, that’s not death, is it ?
And before you answer, you might want to ask CC what i mean when i say “Great weather, isn’t it?”
I think Germany will have similiar problems, just not as bad. And if push really came to shove they could tell the turks there to get the hell out. Neither the original people who came to germany were made citizens nor their children are citizens. If this kind of insane crap goes on they could theoreticaly find themselves on a boat back to Turkey ((and REAL poverty) at least as of 5 years ago according to my old college prof.)
Yes, there is a lot of talk about that. Though I perosnally think the turks are not the problem. Turkey want to be “part of the West” thus anyone who sees himself as “turk” will try to behave and allow Turkey to enter the EU. Also, the legislation has improved a bit (by a red-rgreen gov’t, and against resistance of the conservatives: planned was a much “better” immigration law but it had to be scaled down due to the resistance … and now, legally, the pope needs to lose german citizenship) allowing later generations of immigrants to gain citizenship quite easy (but still no double citizenship). Also, we speak of the third generation of turks in Germany. The really scary thing is, that their level of fluency in german is lower than the one of the second generation. A very clear warning sign that something goes very wrong in the integration process. Also, if you keep being a foreigner, you see the state in a different view:
I for my part think the Russian-Germans are more in the situation like the rioters is France. They are german citizens, officially with the
same rights as all germans. Still, they are not integrated, and often not allowed to take part in the wealth, with less chances to find a job just because of their name and the suburb they come from (just like in France).
Plus, if they become criminals, they then tend to be more violent than turks or other germans (in that order).
There is no such thing as “cheap labor”.
Unfortunately, there is … from what i read, the USA are noticing that as well at the moment. And Western Europe will never be able to beat the prices of China, East Asia or Eastern Europe alone. That is a problem if you have “underqualified” people in your nations workforce. The market does not care for them and our understanding of humanity should mean that we can not leave them alone. Unfortunately, we in fact do, and now we are faced the bill. So, all i can hope, is that the “in fact do” changes to a “in fact did”.
Either you come to this country legaly or you get out.
Funny that you just spoke of France, and without any real notice shift to the USA. Would you mind to say so next time, so that i don’t have to wonder for a few sentences what the heck you are suddenly talking about?
They do work that Americans won’t do for crap wages.
Be prepared that this will happen more and more often. It is said that Germanies economy is “globalised” 4 times as much as the US economy. Otherwise, you will lose all cheap production, all out-sourcable cheap services etc. With no real social system, this will make the people work for the crap wages, just to survive.
That is the truth. These jobs must get done, and w/o the criminals doing them companies will be forced to raise the wages of these jobs to attract AMERICANS to do them.
No :). It is always (by market fans) said you have a choice. Unfortunately, if the choice is starvation or crap wage … then people will take the crap wage. The situation is going to get worse in the US, believe me. The problem is not with illegal immigrants.
If these things had been done in Eurupe than they would not have the problem they have now.
It also is not the problem here. Even turks are too expensive in Germany. The costs of living are just too high for anyone to compete with production in China or services from Rumania or Polans (who in turn are pressured by Unkrainians and Belorussians).
BURN, Rune Blade, BURN !!!
Oh yeah, but don’t die … just suffer horrible, panful and staying deep burns… maybe a coma, yeah, that would be ok, that’s not death, is it ?
And before you answer, you might want to ask CC what i mean when i say “Great weather, isn’t it?”
If you have to resort to personal attacks, you’ve already lost the argument. Enjoy your schooling by the mind of Rune Blade.Â
you are prooF positive that I must continue to do what I do least others be polluted by ignorance and liberal personal attacks.
It does seem possible here in the US that some S. American apple pickers will knock over a wasps nests and two of them get stung a few dozen times.
One of them will have an allergic reaction, but the migrant workers in the apple orchard do not have medical insurance so the allergy kills one. This could become a focal anger point among all of the illegal migrant low wage workers who riot, pillage, and burn leadinng to another deadly wave of forest fires…
@Rune:
And before you answer, you might want to ask CC what i mean when i say “Great weather, isn’t it?”
If you have to resort to personal attacks,…
If you had followed my advice, you would have seen that it was no personal attack.
ImpLy,
I musyt disagree with the alert levels being set the same in all countries(all at level three if #d). At no time in World history have all the countries mentioned, including Canada, been on the same level of concern/alert.
A humorous viewpoint….Examples given, WWII UK became concerned after Poland fell, France became concerned after France fell, USSR became concerned when it was attacked and the US became concerned when it appeared UK might fall.
@F_alk:
I think Germany will have similiar problems, just not as bad. And if push really came to shove they could tell the turks there to get the hell out. Neither the original people who came to germany were made citizens nor their children are citizens. If this kind of insane crap goes on they could theoreticaly find themselves on a boat back to Turkey ((and REAL poverty) at least as of 5 years ago according to my old college prof.)
Yes, there is a lot of talk about that. Though I perosnally think the turks are not the problem. Turkey want to be “part of the West” thus anyone who sees himself as “turk” will try to behave and allow Turkey to enter the EU. Also, the legislation has improved a bit (by a red-rgreen gov’t, and against resistance of the conservatives: planned was a much “better” immigration law but it had to be scaled down due to the resistance … and now, legally, the pope needs to lose german citizenship) allowing later generations of immigrants to gain citizenship quite easy (but still no double citizenship). Also, we speak of the third generation of turks in Germany. The really scary thing is, that their level of fluency in german is lower than the one of the second generation. A very clear warning sign that something goes very wrong in the integration process. Also, if you keep being a foreigner, you see the state in a different view:
I for my part think the Russian-Germans are more in the situation like the rioters is France. They are german citizens, officially with the
same rights as all germans. Still, they are not integrated, and often not allowed to take part in the wealth, with less chances to find a job just because of their name and the suburb they come from (just like in France).
Plus, if they become criminals, they then tend to be more violent than turks or other germans (in that order).There is no such thing as “cheap labor”.
Unfortunately, there is … from what i read, the USA are noticing that as well at the moment. And Western Europe will never be able to beat the prices of China, East Asia or Eastern Europe alone. That is a problem if you have “underqualified” people in your nations workforce. The market does not care for them and our understanding of humanity should mean that we can not leave them alone. Unfortunately, we in fact do, and now we are faced the bill. So, all i can hope, is that the “in fact do” changes to a “in fact did”.
Either you come to this country legaly or you get out.
Funny that you just spoke of France, and without any real notice shift to the USA. Would you mind to say so next time, so that i don’t have to wonder for a few sentences what the heck you are suddenly talking about?
They do work that Americans won’t do for crap wages.
Be prepared that this will happen more and more often. It is said that Germanies economy is “globalised” 4 times as much as the US economy. Otherwise, you will lose all cheap production, all out-sourcable cheap services etc. With no real social system, this will make the people work for the crap wages, just to survive.
That is the truth. These jobs must get done, and w/o the criminals doing them companies will be forced to raise the wages of these jobs to attract AMERICANS to do them.
No :). It is always (by market fans) said you have a choice. Unfortunately, if the choice is starvation or crap wage … then people will take the crap wage. The situation is going to get worse in the US, believe me. The problem is not with illegal immigrants.
If these things had been done in Eurupe than they would not have the problem they have now.
It also is not the problem here. Even turks are too expensive in Germany. The costs of living are just too high for anyone to compete with production in China or services from Rumania or Polans (who in turn are pressured by Unkrainians and Belorussians).
Yes, I down shiffted and should have led into it better. However you took me out of context quite a few times so I think we are even as far as things go (btw, thank you for the civil post even though we disagree).
Cheap labor does come with a price, the price Eurupe is paying right now. I won’t go into every Eurpean country because the reason they have allowed the influx of immigrants varies. My point is that as bad as the rioters in France feel that they have been misstreated is nowhere near the poverty they would have if they were in their home countries. However they feel that they are cheated out of the wealth, but keep their nationalistic identity (which in their home country would mean they work for a dollar a day). I do think that the Islamic countries are back a$$ward as far as how they conduct government and day to day life. The immigrants in Eurupe do not look at themselves as Eurupeans, they cling to the nationalistic insanity that is destroying their own home countries. All the while never seeing it as a benefit that they have the simlpe things like running water and food to eat which they would not have if not being in Eurupe.
The first influx of immigrant labor after WW2 to Eurupe was more than happy to take crap jobs for crap pay (remind you of what is going on now in the US?) because it was much better than what they had. Their children want more, and they should. But there has been no integration. (Down shifting to the US now). The US laws now, did not invite the illegals to come here (at least on paper, our government loves the cheap labor they are getting) and we either need to integrate or get caught into the same trap you have in Eurupe. We need to be selective as far as who comes here. Not the open door amnesty policy that Bush proposed (and was shot down by the American people because it would have been political suicide for the republicans).
As I said, if you come to this country legaly than you should have every benefit that comes with being an American. If you come here illegaly you should be given nothing. Our illegal invasion must stop or in a decade or 2 we will be in the same situation as Eurupe is now.
