G40 - New UK Pacific Nation

@Young:

Just spit balling here, but imagine if all the Axis peices in G40 we’re one color, and all the Allied units one color. No national objectives (maybe 5 IPCs per victory city), both sides at war, and the Axis side going first.

HHMMMMM!

Well you know I’m all for ditching NOs in favor of a VC bonus haha, but this one would require a lot of rehashing, and probably another box purchased,  as I’m not sure I’d have enough of any two color sets to try it out. Since the DoW would be out, I’d guess you’d want to try it under total war conditions and no China rules? In this case Axis would be much stronger in the Med I’d guess, but a lot weaker in the Pacific. Interesting thought experiment though.

As to the current discussion on NOs, my approach would be to see what it looks like without the NOs, then add them based on what the balance looks like.

So for example, if the British are getting screwed then give them an easy NO, if the British are too strong then give them a more challenging one. Or similarly, if Japan totally ignores the Pacific in favor of India,  then give the British an NO that is more focused on the islands.  Things like that. I think the difficulty with G40, is trying to put the NOs, before we know what the balance is. I think its better when the NOs respond to some need in the initital balance.

What Ruskie NOs would you adopt?

Sounds ideal. I will try using this set up in my next face to face gamd, to see how it feels.

I have not read all the details in this thread but I like what I see in my cursory reading of the thread.

Hey YG and Black Elk,
I know this thread is mainly about UK Pacific, but a while back I came up with new NOs for UK Europe. See what you think about these:

First, we simply eliminated the $5 NO for the "UK control of ALL original territories on the Europe board (including Canada). We just felt this one was near impossible after Round 2 and too easy for the Axis to interrupt.
Then we added the following:
$5 = No German subs in the Med or Atlantic (Excluding sea zones 100, 113, 114 and 115)
$3 = UK control of all Canadian territories
$3 = UK control of ALL following territories: Gibraltar, Malta, Egypt and Trans-Jordan
$3 = Allied control of Ethiopia and Italian Somaliland and no Axis units in Africa south of Egypt and the Sahara.
$3 = Allied control of ALL following territories: Iraq, NW Persia, Persia and Western Persia

I figured these gave England a few more obtainable NOs with varying degrees of difficulty. Also, I figured making most of them $3 made them not so overpowering but still gives England some extra cash. If nothing else, they can cancel out convoy raiding or SBR damage caused by Germany.
The Canada NO they will almost always get every round.
The Gibraltar, Malta, Egypt, Trans-Jordan NO makes sense because those were historically very strategic areas and UK can get that one with some defensive effort.
The Africa NO will require a little effort killing the Italians there. Somewhat easy to obtain but not terribly so.
The Middle-East NO requires a little more effort, especially attacking Iraq. Russia can help with this one since it is “Allied” control, not just UK because all the Allies would benefit from the oil reserves there.
The German Sub NO is the best one for the UK, and hardest for them to achieve. When I play Germany, I almost always have a sub or two out there somewhere.

4. During their purchase new units phase of every turn, the United Kingdom may attempt to roll a 6 in order to replace all French units on London with their own.

Make it a more simple NO such as when all three France, Southern France & Normandy has been captured for the first time by Axis, then all French units (keeping their color) can work as a UK unit (on UK’s turn) until Paris is liberated.

Theme: Anglo-French joint command effort

7. Strategic Bombers only receive a +2 damage bonus if they have departed from an operational airbase.

This will help Calcutta against japanese SBR.

You should provide something for poor Italy against all Convoy Raids.

Something like:

+5 IPCs if any Russian territory is controled by Italy.
Theme: National Prestige of Fascist superiority over communist power

@Young:

@Baron:

4. During their purchase new units phase of every turn, the United Kingdom may attempt to roll a 6 in order to replace all French units on London with their own.

Make it a more simple NO such as when all three France, Southern France & Normandy has been captured for the first time by Axis, then all French units (keeping their color) can work as a UK unit (on UK’s turn) until Paris is liberated.

Theme: Anglo-French joint command effort

I’ve thought about that, but there are some who don’t attack Normandy in order to deny the Allies an IC if they land… and that NO would give the Axis more reason not to attack all three. Also, I wanted the UK to at least have an oportunity to use the French fighter as their own on UK1. This would help them take out a damaged German battleship as well as the Taranto raid… they could even threaten the German navy.

Allow French to collect IPCs each turn after Paris has been taken and all their IPCs given.
But when Normandy is also taken, their money cannot be stole away.
So French would be able to buy a minor IC eventually, or wait till Normandy or Southern or France is liberated to buy something with their IPCs.

@Young:

You should provide something for poor Italy against all Convoy Raids.
Something like:
+5 IPCs if any Russian territory is controled by Italy.
Theme: National Prestige of Fascist superiority over communist power.

Might be to powerful considering #5 in my list

If you find this too high, just make it +3 IPCs bonus instead.
It is not a bonus for each Russian territories hold.
It is a single bonus even if there is multiple Italian territories in USSR.

6. The following new Japanese NO will replace “outer perimeter”

• 5 IPCs if Japan controls 2 of the following 3 territories, Guam, Midway, and/or Wake Island.

I like this one, it is more reachable and provide an incentive to act against USA as according to real WWII history.

Then let them do something a la Xeno War:

Each group of unit in the same SZ or territory must roll to know which side they are.
In Uk: 1-2 Stay French / 3-6 Becomes UK’s unit
In Bordeaux or Southern 1-4 Stay French, 5-6 becomes German units.
In Africa and SZs, 1-2 Stay French / 3-4 under UK’s / 5-6 Becomes Germans.

Besides that, I’ve no idea…

Sounds awesome!

Also, YG, what do you think about this off the wall idea…

New Rule:

Liberated Capitals do not restore ownership of other originally controlled territories.

Right now the liberation rules create a weird disincentive, which encourages players not too liberate an ally capital, for fear of losing the income you’ve gained with your primary nation during the interim period. The game shouldn’t support this behavior. Instead if you liberate a capital, only the capital territory should return to the original owners control. The rest of the territory can stay under the control of the ally occupying army that just liberated you. This is how it worked in the real war anyway, and it would be better for the gamplay.

Under the rule above, if your land was occupied directly by your ally during the time when your capital was lost, it is considered “under you ally’s military control” for the duration of the war. Any additional territory outside the Capital, is considered nominally liberated, but for gameplay purposes, liberating your ally’s Capital only effects the liberation of the capital territory itself and no others.

Ex. if the Americans control Normandy, and then liberated Paris, only France itself is returned immediately to French control, not Normandy or any other originally french territory, that is currently occupied by their allies. These territories are considered part of the overall war effort, and to be returned only after the War is fully won. Or until the liberated power is prepared to re-occupy, by simple declaration. This leaves the option to the Liberator/Liberated, about when to restore other territories beyond the Capital, based on the needs of the War.

I have been thinking a lot about the proposal you made elsewhere to have “China” rules apply to any vanquished nation (e.g. after their capital falls.) It occurred to me, in order to make the rules consistent, and to avoid having special rules exclusively for China, what if we just said that China’s capital is occupied Kiangsu?
Kiangsu =VC Shanghai and Wartime capital Nanking.

So under this logic, the reason why China has separate rules, different from all other nations, is because they begin play with an occupied capital. They’re not a special case, they just work the way all players do when their capital is lost. As part of a tweak to support this rule, you could include a free minor factory in Kiangsu if China manages to liberate this territory. Similar to the way USA can upgrade their Minors to Majors for free, just something that happens. Or you could do this as part of an overall restricted factory scheme, where the factory unit is removed from the purchase roster, but more minor factories are included at the outset. Either way would work. Production tweaking is an idea I know we’ve kicked around before. For the liberated unit roster though, you could still keep the roster restricted to infantry and artillery, or maybe add in the fighter to the roster at this point, just for kicks, and a reason to get the capital back!
:-D

It is entirely possible to do something similar for the Dutch. Although Holland lacks a VC, one could still say that the Dutch National capital is here. I always find it strange how no matter what happens in G40, Holland can never be liberated. What would be ideal is if we could somehow create a set of rules, that was consistent for these three powers, the Chinese, the Dutch, and the French. Right now they all play according to their own rules. France behaves like a normal nation, but is designed to die on G1. China, well we all know how that works, and then the Dutch who have their own specialized rules and exceptions. Wouldn’t it be cool to design a scenario where all 3 of these nations, and everyone else, behaved according to the same master set of rules?

I think you could do this, by first saying that China and the Dutch are just normal powers, that have occupied capitals at the start of play. Whatever rules apply to them, the same rules should apply to a power like France, once Paris is occupied by Germany. Basically something consistent for all the player nations, and the one non-player nation =Dutch.
Just something to think on. I’d love to hear your thoughts. I believe it could be done, all that is required is perhaps the idea that the Chinese capital is Kiangsu, and the Dutch capital is Holland. And then in the case of liberation, they get a free minor at their capital at which to place their infantry and artillery according to the normal mechanics. The minor is mainly for show and prestige and to make sure all players can work the same way. You could still keep the unit roster restricted to infantry and artillery, using Chinese inf scultps and american or lime green brits to stand in for the Dutch if they are liberated. If you want to include the fighter in the liberated unit roster, that would be cool, there are plenty of lime green spitfires out there, or other air sculpts from previous boards. Seems like kind of a sham, that the Dutch are on the board with territories, and were liberated in the War. They had a cool resistance same as France, and they cheered and kissed the allies in the streets as liberators too. Why not give them this small nod, and allow Holland to serve as a mini victory territory.

You could call such rules “Market Garden” since it handles rules for Liberation and Capital loss, but also gives a nod to the Dutch/Holland thing. After a capital falls, we could make empty territory (no defending units) behave something like the Dutch territoires do OOB, after a capital falls. Making them easier to activate, in the case of Russian land after Moscow falls, or French land after Paris falls, or Italian land after Rome falls, or, you get the idea. But I think it might be fun for a Pacific themed scenario too.

Basically once the capital is liberated, all nations should play according to the same normal, OOB rules, with the exception of that new one mentioned above.

If a capital is occupied, all nations (and territories they control) should play according to the same consistent set of New rules.

That’s my proposal anyway. I think it would work for the British Pacific Empire theme, since at some point this scenario like all others will deal with the liberation aspect of the game. Here is an idea that might play, say India falls. Instead of a “back up” capital, just have the game play the way I suggested. After the capital is dead, Anzac can be liberated by USA, they occupy the land the same way they would dutch territory OOB. And you could do the same thing on the Europe side of the board, allowing UK to occupy French territory in Africa, just as if it was dutch (ie territory owned by a vanquished player.) And you could do the same with China, Russia or America or the British could occupy China for themselves or for the Chinese at the liberators discretion. Have all these territories behave the same way when the capital has fallen.

If you like, units already present in a territory of a vanquished nation, could  be activated by an ally, and could join the ally force, the same way friendly neutrals join their armies to the occupying force. Or they could just be disbanded, with territory ownership going to the ally power that just moved in. This would allow for a real Dunkirk type play, as Britain could activate French units left behind after the initial fall of France, or at least activate the land for themselves. (No incentive for players to Metagame and leave France unoccupied, just so other Allies can’t take it, as sometimes happnes now with an exploit of the current rules.) In general France would be a much more interesting power to play under such rules, since they could mobilize infantry the same way China does. For Axis this will be a disadvantage granted, but Axis already have the acknowledged advantage OOB anyway, so this might just be a balance, definitely no allied bid. Or even if Axis need a leg up under such rules, you can always come back to that afterwards. First though, make fun rules for all nations under all conditions, whether capital is lost or restored.

And then if the capital of this nation is liberated, and the nation itself is restored to normal play, you let the Liberating player choose when to return other specific territories based on the needs of total Victory in the greatest war in human history.

Also, I dig the NOs you proposed. Hope your game is glorious tomorrow :-D

Sounds killer man, I’m going to repost that last idea in a separate thread so as not to distract too much from the main aims of this one. Since I think it works for standard G40 too. But I think I might try it using the British Pacific Empire set up, since this set up intrigues me a lot.

Have a great game tomorrow :-D