Anyone still like to give this one a go? I’ve been thinking more about German bombers lately, and how much power they can project.
One strat that I’ve seen work on occasion uses the double bomber buy +1 sub.
On Combat
Attack 106 with 1 sub.
Strafe 111 with 2 subs, 1 fighter, 1 tac, 1 bomber and 1 battleship, retreat to 112. Or take, its still not the end of the world.
Attack 110 with 2 subs, 3 fighters, 3 tacs, 1 bomber. (if you’re nervous, send 2 bombers and take the risk on 111 strafe)
Attack Yugo in force with everything in range but 1 infantry in Romania (to activate Bulgaria) and the tank in Poland (to transport).
Attack France with everything but 1 infantry.
On Non com
If the strafe on 111 worked, transport and cruiser to sz 112 back up the Bismark and lock Norway.
3 air to W. Germany to scramble defense with those ships.
Activate Finland with 1 inf.
The remaining Atlantic air to Holland with all the aaguns and the one infantry unit that didn’t invade Paris.
Yugo fighter to Holland, Yugo tac to S. Italy.
Activate Bulgaria, with the 1 inf left in Romania.
On Placement:
2 bombers in W. Germany, 1 sub in sz 112.
The goal is to have the English so nervous on UK1 that they can do nothing but brace defense against Sea Lion.
On G2 all out bombing raid on UK, with everything available. The goal is to inflict max damage 20+ on the UK major, and all bases, with all your tacs and bombers. Hopefully drawing a favorable intercept against the RAF if they want to go that route.
After this you could go a couple different directions, depending on how crushing the bombing run was. Like drop a major in Romania after you’ve sufficiently shifted enough units into Slovakia and the Balkans to support the play. Or use the bombers to keep UK/Africa clear of Allied ships while you push East out of Germany. Or to continue just pounding UK in preparation for a Sea Lion play. Or buy a bomber a round until your air armada can control Europe without a navy. Or just buy 10 tanks so everyone knows you mean business.
:-D
Once you’ve slammed UK into submission on G2, you have more options and less pressure than if you just let them build out of UK with no battle of Britain.
Of course its possible that all 4 bombers may not survive, since AA guns always get their chance at a 1, but if the Bombers do survive, or manage to get in two strong rounds of bombing before they die, then the Luftwaffe will be in a much stronger position to pound UK into a corner, while they reverse direction onto Russia. Like any play that involves a 111 strafe, you are already playing with a bit of a gamble, so this just takes that gamble to the next level, by throwing strat bombers into the mix.
I know many will buy bombers for the combat advantage exclusively and never raid, but if you do want to make bombing raids, and you acknowledge that its already a gamble, then I think it makes sense to gamble with it on G2. Since this gets you the most bang for your buck given the risk.
Anyone have any other moves they like to use to set up a Battle of Britain bombing campaign?
Anybody like to try and risk a strat bomb on G1?
Seems like the sketchiest battle in that case would be sz110 absent the bombers, but might still get a nice roll. Or perhaps UK foregoes the scramble to intercept. I suppose one could bring a tac to escort and then hit the harbor (should it survive), if you really wanted to risk sz 110 or felt confident that the opponent wouldn’t scramble. Not sure, most of the games I’ve seen do the 4 bombers on G2 thing, and just drop a lone sub to either nuke ships or lock up the Russia NO in sz 125.
To support the play Japan can adopt a similar bombing posture, focusing first on UK Pacific and then on Russia directly, trying to stall off the Americans while they regularly fly bombers towards the center.
I’ve never been a fan of bombing India, since they won’t have any money once you’re in the war anyway. Subs do better with almost no risk.
However, I love the 2 bmb, 1 sub buy for G1. My fav buy by far. Great for clearing the Med. As far as Sealion goes - it’s a sucker’s move. Has any game with two decent players ever been won by a sealion? The thing is, you take UK, but then what? You spend the rest of the game trying (and failing) to hold the original German lines, and you never get more than Novgrood. Sure, you might take Egypt, but that’s not enough. How is winning even possible?
@Shin:
As far as Sealion goes - it’s a sucker’s move. Has any game with two decent players ever been won by a sealion? The thing is, you take UK, but then what? You spend the rest of the game trying (and failing) to hold the original German lines, and you never get more than Novgrood. Sure, you might take Egypt, but that’s not enough. How is winning even possible?
I think it’s more of an opportunistic strategy, take it if it’s there. If UK max protects and Russia has stacked the eastern front then you’re right, it’s a losing proposition. However if you can catch the allies off guard, Sealion and quickly revert back to the East then it can be successful.
Basically the G1 I do 90% of the time. Except I don’t hold back an inf on France.
The 4 bombers are wrecking machines. I mostly use them for the Med to wipe out Egypt or ships. On G2 it seems like clearing the Med is Germany’s responsibility since Italy is too weak. Depending on how many ships you need to attack that can prevent you from bombing England with all the planes. If I do bomb England I send 4 bombers and 1 tact to hit the Air Field. The Tactical I use is the one that had to land in Holland. The rest of the planes clear the med ships but its at such a huge cost sometimes. So much easier if you send enough planes to “one hit” everything like the entire Luftwaffe.
Some players of bovine nature like to buy another 2-4 bombers on turn 2 as well, hehe.
I don’t think you’d catch much disagreement on the Sea Lion thing. All you’re really trying to do with it is immobilize the British, to prevent them from doing other things, like buying tanks or mech for South Africa, or launching down to Gibraltar with no consequences. There aren’t many downsides to threatening Sea Lion, most of the downsides come from G actually trying to pull it off. Even in those instances where Germany buys transports or a carrier, its usually just posturing, trying to draw down purchases on London and force them to spend money on home defense. 9 times out of 10, any transports you buy just end up shucking units to Novgorod out of Germany in the end, rather than anything to do with UK itself.
The bombing threat works in a similar way, since with enough bombers, its possible to face down a UK scramble into 110 and threaten a sea lion just with transports alone. I mean, if you wanted to go that route, you can keep the transports fairly safe in sz 113 (with the scramble defense, since UK fighters can’t reach) and then threaten UK with air out of W. Germany, provided you control Holland. Sure, an early carrier makes the threat a bit more significant, but bombers can do something on G2 that the carrier can’t, which is to bomb UK back into the stone age hehe. Or you can do more or less the same thing, but without ever buying the transports, just forcing the UK to plan for that potentiality on defense.
Ultimately what you get out of it, has more to do with the Center than London. The set up or long term benefit from Sea Lion threat (not actually going for it, but just threatening) is actually to Japan at the Center. Forcing UK to spend heavy in London during the opening rounds, stalls the UK mech train from Africa towards the Center by at least 1 round, maybe 2 or more. This can be the difference between taking India or cracking the Russian south with relative ease during the midgame with Japan, or getting hung up there. The nice thing about bombers for this purpose, is their ability to launch such a great distance out of W. Germany, and get that nice shocker on G2 against UK production. What I like to do is make one solid bombing run on London, seize the initiative by stalling them for a round, and then using the bombers for normal combat or against Russia. Its sort of like in a Casino. If you can win big right away, and immediately walk out the door, then you’ve come out ahead over the House. Take your winnings and don’t risk any more.
;)
The plan for Japan doesn’t require bombing UK Pac necessarily, though if you get in a nice hammer on India for one round, it can also grant a similar initiative boost. Afterwards, just like G, you can use the bombers primarily for the movement advantage, in a combat role, or to bomb Russia (where the potential benefit for the risk is more pronounced.)
In order for Germany to have any real chance of maintaining overall economic parity with the Western forces arrayed against them, they really need to crack Moscow and control the center of the board. Basically, in the realistic course of the game, you’ve got about 10 rounds to pull this off, and if you don’t do it by then, the domination game is more or less lost.
Under that kind of situation, with so much emphasis on Russia, Germany can hardly afford to expend the whole pile on a real UK invasion. More than any other unit type, the bombers out of the W. Germany airbase, have the greatest ease shifting from Western Europe and the Channel, back onto the East, and they can cover Africa pretty well in the process. And for only 30 ipcs, there aren’t a whole lot of other units you can get for the same cost, that give you so many options in the second round.
Whether or not to risk the bombing raid, is of course a question of how much you like to gamble, but I have seen the furious raid on London G2 pay off pretty handsomely. Its possible in one round to damage UK so badly, that they never truly get back on their feet. I even saw a game the other night where Italy decided to follow up on I2, and used their lone bomber to hit the Harbor in Gibraltar (just to kick UK while they were down) landing in S. France, that was amusing, just to see how much it pissed off Churchill hehehe.
Yeah the one infantry left in Holland is an option I sometimes forego as well, though for some reason I feel like it inspires fear to have a jerk in Antwerp, some Reichskommissar barking orders and directing the planes haha. I figure unless I’m trying for S. France, its pretty much the same difference on Paris, so I like to hold him in reserve, just on the off chance that UK scrambles and things get ugly in 110 :-D
If Germany does not buy for Sealion on G2 and US goes KJF, then UK just buys Egypt/Persia minors and never buys a single unit in London until US swings back to Europe. In other words, if you’re not going Sealion, why bother bombing London?
The set up or long term benefit from Sea Lion threat (not actually going for it, but just threatening) is actually to Japan at the Center. Forcing UK to spend heavy in London during the opening rounds, stalls the UK mech train from Africa towards the Center by at least 1 round, maybe 2 or more. This can be the difference between taking India or cracking the Russian south with relative ease during the midgame with Japan, or getting hung up there.
Which is why I’ve gotten in the habit of having a Brit1 buy of 2 MInf for SA, and 2 Ftr for the homeland. Some defense, but it’s defense I can immediately put to work elsewhere if I want to. Sealion bluff?
I call.
If Germany does not buy for Sealion on G2 and US goes KJF, then UK just buys Egypt/Persia minors and never buys a single unit in London until US swings back to Europe. In other words, if you’re not going Sealion, why bother bombing London?
Exactly.
This is assuming your using the fighter from Scotland and the Bomber from London on Italy’s navy.
UK 4 inf, 1 mech, 5 AAA, 2 Fighters, French (2 Inf, 1 Fighter)
Transports - 2 inf + tank + art (Assume subs missed DD and TT at New Brunswick)
Buy 2 Fighters round 1.
If Germany bombs London for 20 and the AB for 6; UK can purchase 3 inf, 2 art.
Total Defense: 11 inf, 1 mech, 3 art, 1 tank, 5 AAA, 5 Fighters
Total Attack : 10 Inf, 9 Tanks, 1 art, 5 Fighters, 5 Tactical, 4 Bombers.
100% Avg units left for attacker 16
Now lets assume that the 2 subs take out the TT at New Brunswick.
Total Defense: 10 inf, 1 mech, 2 art, 1 tank, 5 AAA, 5 Fighters
Total Attack : 10 Inf, 9 Tanks, 1 art, 5 Fighters, 5 Tactical, 4 Bombers.
100% Avg units left for attacker 18 units remaining.
Now lets assume that UK bought 6 inf and a Fighter.
Total Defense: 16 inf, 1 mech, 2 art, 1 tank, 5 AAA, 4 Fighters
Total Attack : 10 Inf, 9 Tanks, 1 art, 5 Fighters, 5 Tactical, 4 Bombers.
90% Avg units left for attacker 10 units remaining.
Now lets assume that UK bought 9 inf.
Total Defense: 19 inf, 1 mech, 2 art, 1 tank, 5 AAA, 3 Fighters
Total Attack : 10 Inf, 9 Tanks, 1 art, 5 Fighters, 5 Tactical, 4 Bombers.
80% Avg units left for attacker 7-9 units remaining.
Looks like 9inf is the safest buy.
| |
So G1 is 2 bombers + sub, G2 is 9 transports? If UK scrambles they can defeat the German cruiser and prevent the assault. What else are you bringing to the sea zone to prevent that?
UK can also buy all subs T2 and have decent odds at preventing the entire landing from the get-go.
You guys all make great points.
Germany as well as Italy can bomb the AB. Repairing the AB will cost you inf so Germany can use less planes on the attack and send them with the CA and/or BB. They could also buy one less TT and buy a DD instead. Its highly possible to do the attack with 9 TTs instead of 10.
This is assuming your using the fighter from Scotland and the Bomber from London on Italy’s navy.
UK 4 inf, 1 mech, 5 AAA, 2 Fighters, French (2 Inf, 1 Fighter)
Transports - 2 inf + tank + art (Assume subs missed DD and TT at New Brunswick)
Buy 2 Fighters round 1.If Germany bombs London for 20 and the AB for 6; UK can purchase 3 inf, 2 art.
Total Defense: 11 inf, 1 mech, 3 art, 1 tank, 5 AAA, 5 Fighters
Total Attack : 10 Inf, 9 Tanks, 1 art, 5 Fighters, 5 Tactical, 4 Bombers.
100% Avg units left for attacker 16
Now lets assume that the 2 subs take out the TT at New Brunswick.
Total Defense: 10 inf, 1 mech, 2 art, 1 tank, 5 AAA, 5 Fighters
Total Attack : 10 Inf, 9 Tanks, 1 art, 5 Fighters, 5 Tactical, 4 Bombers.
100% Avg units left for attacker 18 units remaining.
Now lets assume that UK bought 6 inf and a Fighter.
Total Defense: 16 inf, 1 mech, 2 art, 1 tank, 5 AAA, 4 Fighters
Total Attack : 10 Inf, 9 Tanks, 1 art, 5 Fighters, 5 Tactical, 4 Bombers.
90% Avg units left for attacker 10 units remaining.
Now lets assume that UK bought 9 inf.
Total Defense: 19 inf, 1 mech, 2 art, 1 tank, 5 AAA, 3 Fighters
Total Attack : 10 Inf, 9 Tanks, 1 art, 5 Fighters, 5 Tactical, 4 Bombers.
80% Avg units left for attacker 7-9 units remaining.
Looks like 9inf is the safest buy.
Who’s protecting the German transports from scramble in your scenarios?
My post was not to show a perfect Sealion but to show how vulnerable London is to certain round 1 buys. Everything is situational including bids as well.
Here is an updated list with changes based upon scramble options for UK
Germany Buys 2 Bombers and saves (6 PU, Buy DD with 9 TTs round 2)
UK 4 inf, 1 mech, 5 AAA, 2 Fighters, French (2 Inf, 1 Fighter)
Transports - 2 inf + tank + art (Assume subs missed DD and TT at New Brunswick)
UK Buy 2 Fighters round 1.
If Germany bombs London for 20 and the AB(Air Base) for 6; UK can purchase 3 inf, 1 art.
Repair AB(air Base) to 2 assume damaged to 6.
Total Defense: 11 inf, 1 mech, 2 art, 1 tank, 5 AAA, 5 Fighters
Total Attack : 10 Inf, 9 Tanks, 1 art, 3 Fighters, 3 Tactical, 4 Bombers.
Sea Battle : 2 Fighter, 2 tactical bomber, DD, CA vs 3 Fighters (100% Germany wins with 3 units)
97% Avg units left for attacker 11 units remaining.
Now lets assume that the 2 subs take out the TT at New Brunswick.
Total Defense: 10 inf, 1 mech, 1 art, 1 tank, 5 AAA, 5 Fighters
Total Attack : 10 Inf, 9 Tanks, 1 art, 3 Fighters, 3 Tactical, 4 Bombers.
Sea Battle : 2 Fighter, 2 tactical bomber, DD, CA vs 3 Fighters (100% Germany wins with 3 units)
99% Avg units left for attacker (13-14) units remaining.
Now lets assume that UK bought 6 inf and a Fighter.
Total Defense: 16 inf, 1 mech, 1 art, 1 tank, 5 AAA, 4 Fighters
Total Attack : 10 Inf, 9 Tanks, 1 art, 5 Fighters, 5 Tactical, 4 Bombers.
87% Avg units left for attacker 8-9 units remaining.
Now lets assume that UK bought 9 inf.
Total Defense: 19 inf, 1 mech, 2 art, 1 tank, 5 AAA, 3 Fighters
Total Attack : 10 Inf, 9 Tanks, 1 art, 5 Fighters, 5 Tactical, 4 Bombers.
77% Avg units left for attacker 6-8 units remaining.
9 inf is still the safest buy to protect London but I think 6 inf and Fighter works too as well as offering more utility with the fighter.
Note All combats are assuming UK will not scramble against Germany’s DD, CA, 2fighters and 2 tactical bombers but if they don’t repair that air base then the odds will be increasing in Germany’s favor for taking London since they can send their planes from the seazone as well. UK will have 4 PUs to buy another artillery but they will have to deal with 4 more planes attacking as well.
I found that the safest way to prevent sealion is to not attack the italian fleet in 97, kill malta fleet and consolidate in 92 with the proper proection of algeria. Italy will keep his fleet butnso do you. And youre gonna stay in the medi, making it impossible for him to sail out of taranto.
this also hastens the uk/us intervention in euro. Wotked for me in some games. If Germany really wants to sealion eitther he delay it to g4 or he will do it at loosing odds (with the added RAF from the medi plus fleet defence)
I agree 100% Noll, and rarely do a Sealion. But, if London is not well protected and Italy got diced poorly in battles from Med/Africa and UK builds and IC in Egypt round 1 then I consider it.
Consolidating the Navy at 92 though is risky unless you buy an AB round 1 though. If Germany buys 2 bombers they can hit SZ92 with 4 bombers, 1 tactical and 1 fighter from S. Italy even if Algeria is stacked.
Bombing UK factory to 20 would be average with 4 bombers but only if none of them are shot down by anti-aircraft. Since there’s a 66% chance that one of them will be hit I think 15 damage would be a safer assumption when running the scenarios. Not sure how much that 5 IPC changes the odds and expected results though.
I love Sea Lion, I just think it’s a trap.
IKE, I agree with you too. Its a very risky attack and can easily ruin the whole game.
I’m all in for reinforcing German’s air. It gets you both a bigger threat on UK and also makes a huge threat on any allied fleet. But the biggest thing is that instead of useless CVs, you’re also using the air in land battles (and in case of bombers, you can easily relocate them from one teather to another).
Sea Lion tho’ is a worthless trap. Any competent Allies player will make Russia a 70+ IPC powerhouse after a succesfull Sea Lion.
