@WindowWasher Good day. Japan needs the income from the DEI and need to keep India on the defensive, not expanding. I agree with Awk others here: Oz can wait. Make Japan a monster first.
I have played close to 100 1940 games and don’t think anyone has tried to take Sydney from me early on.
Try it, but I don’t think it would work against most players here.
Japan's super economy -the end of the world?
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Well Japan DOW 1 is super common and frequent. I do not know who threatens Hawaii with it…. so you can pretty much rule that out. I have not done J2 DOW in over a year now and losing with the axis is rare for me.
You should not be losing India against a J2 DOW either before round 4. Generally speaking Japan takes India rounds 4-6 depends on how much pressure USA/China/ANZAC/Russia are applying.
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The best thing you can do against any Japan player is to make sure is to force japan to do 1 big battle by presenting multiple battles on the same round. Like shove Russia into Korea and USA on Japan waters and China shoving and anzac taking what islands he can and UK moving in. This forces Japan to pick a battle and give up the rest.
The real problem is if the allies go Pacific hard… Germany takes Russia on round 6… at that point you have to have the Pacific situation handled, because you have to stop the Europe win at this point with UK and USA. Ideally you want India to replace Russia. Germany just has minors in Russia so UK minors + India is a good substitute for Russia. USA can pressure the Atlantic.
If you lost Egypt to Italy already… well you lost Europe, even if you went atlantic Germany would G6 Russia anyway, as long as Germany buys pure mech/armor rounds 2-3, then air rounds 4-5 it has enough to all in Russia. Italy has to defend Europe for Germany, it is okay to lose west Germany/Norway/Normandy, just have to hold Germany, can get everything back after Russia is dead.
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Russia being weak is a pretty big flaw to this game. I wish Russia started the game with an extra unit, being a bomber to give it some options, it is also helps Russia defend on the last battle, it is just like having 1 more infantry, because it dies in the first round of dice rolling so an infantry that would have died would be alive and rolling.
Bids are best spent in the middle east. So the only games we saw the Russia bomber active was in Garg’s tournament. The Axis saw more victories despite the additional unit and the bids were around 10 ipcs additional for the allies. Towards the end the allies bid got bigger.
When it comes to defending and attacking capitals every little bit counts, you want your full potential present, because failure means defeat for either side.
The axis have a tremendous advantage because Japan is going to blow up, I make around 60 ipcs after round 3, so you cannot ignore me in the pacific. Then I got Germany going all in on Russia every game. I take Russia G6 or G7 or bust.
If I try to play an income game with the axis after round 3-4 I am caught up with the allies income. I am just expanding everywhere. I only do this if I see split buys coming out of USA and I expect to own Egypt and the middle east (buy bombers with Germany round 2 if I have to and swing in on egypt or if I own southern france I can pitch in some naval). It is really hard for the allies to take back the income advantage after that. As long as I do not go crazy with Japan it works out.
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To answer Cyanight’s question:
I will always retreat the indians once Japan has a very good chance of destroying that army with a lot of survivors. Now if the Indians could destroy 10+ Japanese aircraft I wouldn’t be so sure to retreat, but I have never faced that particular situation before.Moving past the opening 4 turns of the game into the late game (turn 8+). Why I think the Japanese super economy isn’t the end of the world, as long as the allies keep their military alive and aim for economic equality at least:
Basically with the allies being strong in Europe (but still able to defend Sydney and Hawaii), Japan will get to that high income. What can happen? Out of my personal experience, assuming Germany will defend adequately against the western allies every turn (i.e. stop focussing on Russia):
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Japan gan go 100% into trying to take Hawaii/Sydney. The USA must thwart this by most likely invest 100% in the Pacific from now on. Is this the end of the world for the allies? I daresay no, as this is the moment that Paris can be liberated so France can take over the role from the USA in Western Europe of producing defending units. Meanwhile, Russia is at liberty to choose who and where to start attacking and the UK can put some spare resources into the Middle East and start pushing eastwards, ultimately taking back Calcutta.
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Japan can defensively deal with the Russian/UK threat on its western perimeter by investing ~30% of their income per turn for this theatre. This will also free up 30% of the USA’s income to either:
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outproduce Japan on the Pacific itself and start taking back crucial islands (DEI, NG, DNG)
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keep producing in Europe to tip the balance into allied favor faster.
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Japan can very offensively deal with the UK in the ME and defend its western perimeter against Russia. This will free up even more resources for the USA to invest offensively into either Europe or the Pacific itself.
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Japan can build many TRS and place them so that multiple targets are threatened at once to keep the allies guessing where they will invade. This I think is the most dangerous option and it will initiate a deadly tango between the IJN and the USN where the USN must be prepared to retake what the IJN conquered, or, if it can’t, take another VC or resource-rich area (like the Philippines if Japan takes Sydney) and it must be able to keep doing that: take out a Japanese VC/resource every time the IJN takes an allied one. Since Japan invested quite some resources into transports (not to mention that taking Sydney should deliver a crippling blow to the IJN), the USN should have the upper hand in warships and air, and after a while the UK should be able to retake Calcutta as well. Like I said before, I think this is the most dangerous option for both sides, as 1 little mistake in maneuvering the IJN or USN can be fatal for the axis as well as for the allies!
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? (I may have missed an option).
The alternative, as Cow stated, is Germany keep focussing on Russia.
Moscow may or may not fall, depending on the amount of UK forces in Moscow. The UK must aid Moscow to at least make a German victory here a pyrrhic one (loosing at least 75% of the Luftwaffe).
In my own (humble) experience, this is bad for the Axis. Berlin will be at very high risk all the time and West Germany will fall into allied hands very quickly (US3 if japan DOWed early, US4/5 depending on how long Japan postponed) followed by Northern Italy and ultimately Rome, 2/3 turns after West Germany fell… Even with Moscow in German hands Germany will not have more than 35 IPCs to spend and Japan can have as much as 98IPCs/turn, totalling 133max. The allies however, will have 45IPCs (UK) + 16IPCs (France) + 95IPCs (USA) + 8IPCs (ANZAC) = 164IPCs.
This alone means doom for the Axis already but it gets worse: Germany, desperately defending Berlin, will also very soon loose the Balkans + Leningrad and all area’s around this City. With Germany isolated or even destroyed, the allies can gang up against Japan, even liberating Moscow again.Even with 98IPCs/turn (at its very maximum expansion), defending these thousands of miles of territory, is too much for Japan if the allies are still at equal or higher income as the axis…
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It is extremely hard to fail a G6 or G7 all in Germany VS Russia. you need about 10 fighters from outside at least.
It is worth the risk. G6 is when I build defenses since I am attacking Russia. USA 1-5 is pretty weak and easy to defend against with just Italy.
G7 is when I am bringing the finland/norway units over and buying mech/armor for an additional round. This is done very rarely for me… like when I use germany to do middle east / africa business.
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@Cow:
It is extremely hard to fail a G6 or G7 all in Germany VS Russia. you need about 10 fighters from outside at least.
It is worth the risk. G6 is when I build defenses since I am attacking Russia. USA 1-5 is pretty weak and easy to defend against with just Italy.
G7 is when I am bringing the finland/norway units over and buying mech/armor for an additional round. This is done very rarely for me… like when I use germany to do middle east / africa business.
Your insight into the expert side of the game is spot on Cow!
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@Cow:
It is extremely hard to fail a G6 or G7 all in Germany VS Russia. you need about 10 fighters from outside at least.
It is worth the risk. G6 is when I build defenses since I am attacking Russia. USA 1-5 is pretty weak and easy to defend against with just Italy.
G7 is when I am bringing the finland/norway units over and buying mech/armor for an additional round. This is done very rarely for me… like when I use germany to do middle east / africa business.
Well, thank you!
I mean, I don’t find it too hard to make Germany fail this German all-in against Moscow, so I guess I can take this as a compliment ;-).Seriously, you are right about those outside FTR/TAC, but why would that be extremely hard? Especially considering the UK/France start the game with what, 11 or 12 aircraft already…
I know people rarely do it but I can tell it’s a must indeed and not at all so difficult for the UK to do. It sure requires planning ahead and a little practice. And I am not saying Germans won’t take Moscow if they persist. But the price will be too high for them if they do. They can have it with 1 land unit and 4 aircraft left. Or, if you wish, 5 land units and no aircraft left… Whatever. The UK must be aware of the German focus and needs to focus on that same spot too.US1-5 is indeed not at its peak, but from Gibraltar/London the allies can seriously attack Rome, Berlin (leapfrog trick) and/or everything in between. Apart from the escort fleet (CV + air) + air, combined allies are threatening with fully loaded 6TRS(US3), 8TRS(US4), 12TRS(US5), 16TRS(US6). Italy can never defend all crucial areas against this.
The best thing Germany can do is reinforce the west and try to postpone the assault on Moscow for a later time. But… (see my larger previous post for that option)…
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It is true You can get UK air units into Russia. From scotland or london -> africa uk 2 after no sealion detection africa -> egpyt uk3 Egypt to persia UK 4 then Russia UK 5 in time to defend.
What is that like 4 fighters? Plus India and existing middle east fighters? That is about 9. This is all assuming Japan did not murder the fighters or Italy. Then you just need 1 round of fighter buys in persia.
This is not taking into consideration the possibility of Japan bombing Russia, Italy bombing Russia, or Germany bombing Russia. Which are all possibilities. In which case Russia still has difficulties holding up depending on how the dice rolls out. Bombing can go really bad from multiple 1s or really good with actual bombings.
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If any or all of the Axis start bombing Russia, do you use those Allied fighters for interceptors?
So often I find using interceptors tends to bite me in the butt. The dang attacking bombers end up getting one or even more “1s” and my fighters get bupkiss.
However, if there are a lot of fighters sitting there, it may just scare off potential bomber attacks. -
The bombings tend to happen on rounds 3 or 4 if at all. At this point not much allies fighters are available.
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@knp7765:
Interceptors indeed often scare off potential bombers. There can be between 12 - 17 FTR in Moscow so any raiders usually think twice before coming in.
In case they come anyway, Japanese/Italian bombers I intercept if their anticipated damage would be worse than loosing a FTR (i.e. costing the Russian production 3 INF, so 10 or more damage on the IC). With both Japanese and Italians able to raid I auto-intercept one of them but with an overkill of air in Moscow you could forget about what is the best way to do it and just intercept all of them.
German air will be a bit different, since air they loose during raids will also not participate during the actual assault on Moscow. So usually it is better to intercept because Germans will loose more air to combined interception + AAA-fire. If they loose 4-5 bombers/escorts versus 1-2 allied FTR I think that’s worth it.
I wholeheartedly agree with Cow about how raiding can sting both sides beyond belief. Doing it once or twice, especially in Moscow is a gamble, doing it consistently turn after turn (like Berlin, West Germany, Northern Italy and Rome) is more of a calculation about damage dealt versus the average expected shot down bombers/escorts/interceptors.My favorite flight paths for UK FTR into Moscow are:
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London->Scotland/Norway->Nenetsia->Moscow.
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London->Algeria/French West Africa->Egypt (after attacking something in Med/Africa)->(NW)Persia->Moscow.
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SA->Egypt (possibly after attacking Italians south of Egypt)->(NW)Persia (possibly after attacking Italians in Med/Africa)->Moscow.
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Calcutta->(NW)Persia->Moscow.
The UK/France start the game with 10 FTR/TAC. They can all reach Moscow in time. UK1 builds 1 FTR which can also be there in time. UK2 can build 2 or even 3 FTR if need be, which will be there in time. UKP can build 1, 2 or even 3 FTR, depending on the Japanese pressure on its economy. Given a J1 DOW, this will be only 1 FTR but this will also give the USA 3 more fully loaded TRS in Europe (thus starting with 9@Gibraltar in US3, see my previous post).
So a total of 17 FTR/TAC maximum can fly into Moscow for help. As this is surely an overkill, I usually stick with just a 12 maximum. Less if I see Germany backing off (building troops for Western Europe instead of only the GE4&GE5 air).
Heck, even the 3 ANZAC FTR can get there in time so the total can even be as much as 20 FTR maximum…I guess the only dilemma for the allies would be what do they want to protect ‘at all costs’. Would they rather protect Calcutta or Moscow?
Personally I prefer to protect Moscow because Russia (with spread communism in Africa) can retain an income of about 18IPCs while UKP retains nothing if Japan convoys it. Moscow needs protection anyway because Germany can NOT be allowed to take it with like 30 surving units. That would seriously be game over IMHO. Therefore I defend Calcutta for as long as I can win the battle there and then retreat everything into the ME. If/when Japan marches into Persia/Iraq I have a nasty surprise for it: SAfrican/ME/Indian veterans counterattacking with the help of a LOT of air. Even Bombers stationed in Paris (should be about 5 or 6) can reach…On a sidenote,
a friend of mine defends Moscow differently. With the UK he builds 2 ICs in Iraq + Persia ans starts pouring land units into Russia. I don’t think I ever built more than 1 IC in the region (Egypt) but that’s a different story! -
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If Italy gets a foothold in africa at any point the game is over because Italy’s income can defend Europe really well while Germany focuses on the capital. Doing this gives you Africa back eventually. Capitals are just a priority.
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Agree to that.
I have seen Italy getting things going in Africa and/or ME and that is very ugly for the allies. Italy having an income of ~30+ IPCs for a prolonged time breaks the allies. If this lasts only a small number of turns however, the damage can be controlled.Preventing this from happening is another high priority for the allies.
It is a high risk gambit for Italy as well, as this means Italy needs to invest in getting more troops in Africa. Italy’s chances of failure in Africa/ME are quite high and everything the Italians send there cannot help defending Western Europe. Furthermore, Italy is going to need extra TRS and other ships as well so that’s another strike through the Italian build plans for defending Europe! -
Against a light bid of say sub 98 and anzac inf new guinea.
You have really good odds at getting egypt. Tobruk->alex. German air -> alex. Then bam you have a big attack. All you really need is egypt for a bit.
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Italy still doesn’t have enough attack power to take egypt if UK played it correctly though. Are you using German planes to hit Egypt or something? I use the German planes to help defend Alexandria as well, but it seems to me that Italy just doesn’t have enough to actually take it out on his own.
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Italy still doesn’t have enough attack power to take egypt if UK played it correctly though. Are you using German planes to hit Egypt or something? I use the German planes to help defend Alexandria as well, but it seems to me that Italy just doesn’t have enough to actually take it out on his own.
^This. Italy can go kamikaze against Egypt, loosing everything. Then quite a few UK land units + 6-7 aircraft are surviving in Egypt. Germany can attack this with its Luftwaffe but this will cost Germany dearly in aircraft (loosing 10 planes).
And be careful with too much German planes in Africa, as the UK will have a much easier time placing TRS @ Germany’s backdoor unhindered (SZ109).
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As Italy I’ve found myself being able to resist going for the throat in Egypt early. I’ve had opportunities, but I’ll lose a lot of units accomplishing it, and there’s no guarantee I’m holding it long.
In general I try to:
Bottle the UK in Cairo
Take Greece, S.France and Gib if possible
Clear the Med of Allied Ships
Send Armor to potentially can-open for Germany with my BomberOutside of that, I’m building INF and ART to repel Allied landings. I know Italy will not rule the world, and to extend too far in Africa means the Allies will probably try to cut your supply lines in the Med.
If I’m very successful with Italy, I may churn out a few SS to keep the Allies worried about a SS strike - but I’ve found its generally better to put 2 INF in S.France than to build an SS there.
The bane of my existence as Italy has always been Allied aircraft on Malta after the first round. It almost always shuts down any Italian movements into Africa - and by the time I’ve got the IPC to defend against 1 Ftr/Tac/Bomber from sinking my little fleet… I’ve realized I have very few ground units to defend against Allied landings in N.Africa or Europe.
It seems those naval purchases end up becoming wasted on Italy. Aircraft may help a bit, but realistically, continuously building ground troops seems to be my MO with Italy.
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How exactly is Italy not having enough?
2 inf 1 arty ethiopia to sudan round 1. tobruk to alex round 1.
Say you lose 1 or 2 inf to kill ethiopia. you only have 8 men left for egypt… maybe you got the malta inf and aa gun
that is 10. tobruk is 6, 1 transport left that is 8. Italy air matches your starting air in the area.
So unless you are bringing in the pacific units… Italy has a good attack.
I generally J1 dow so if you are bring pacific units over… it is a super easy J3 India.
I guess Russia can send air to India… still idk where you getting all these guys from if not a bid.
~Germany air losses would not be heavy at all. Italy just needs to do a 1 round attack retreat. Germany hits it and clears it out in a round. You can buy bombers on west germany if you are paranoid, they do help out against Russia, you only need to hold east poland to bomb the russians.
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This is why bids tend to be around the 12-14 range to get an extra inf or two in africa along with a sub in sz 98.
A light bid is really pushing it.
~No matter what Italy has 12 units attacking (4 air 2 transported 6 tobruk). 3 from ethiopia you got to send something to attack round 1 or round 2.
So I do not know how you have this super iron clad defense that always holds up when you only start with 10 ground units including anzac. It can get bumped to 12 with malta. Then your air is only 3 planes. But then you have to send something to ethiopia or sudan….
It is a pretty close fight without bids. Then germany can clean house after Italy, after that it pretty much goes to the axis.
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Like if the axis want the middle east they are going to get it. All Germany has to do is buy strait bombers round 2. Some Germany players like southern france, what they do is buy carrier transport 1 inf, armor from france comes down (their round 2 buy). rest of the buy is bombers.
Then you really cannot hold Egypt. This is more or less a G7 or G8 Russia attack. You just take command of the middle east and bomb out of the game.
This is a really good strategy in general. Because if you get pressure from the atlantic you can just bomb russia for 20 every time he buys units.
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Didn’t know we were talking without bids. Anyone crazy enough to take allies without a bid would would make for a really short game.
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@Cow:
No matter what Italy has 12 units attacking (4 air 2 transported 6 tobruk). 3 from ethiopia you got to send something to attack round 1 or round 2.
UK1:
Purchase 6 Inf, 1 Ftr - Place London.Combat:
CR SZ91 - SZ96
FTR Gib - SZ96
vs 1 DD, 1 TT
95% odds, 1.5 Units survive. 2/3 of the time the UK CR survives.CV, SS, DD, CR, 1 TAC SZ98 - SZ97
FTR Malta - SZ97
BMB London - SZ97 (Land Malta)
vs 1 BB, 1 CR potential for 2 FTR scramble, 3 if Germany sends FTR from Hungary.
Odds w/out German help: Scramble: 95%, 3.9 units survive. No scramble: 100%, 6.4 units survive
Odds with German help (scramble): 2.4 Units survive.
So worst case scenario for Italy is no scramble w/out German help. Leaves all but the SS still in SZ97. Best case scenario Germans help with a Ftr and UK ends up with either 1 Ftr/Tac or all 3 aircraft landing on Malta. (This still isn’t good).NCM:
TT SZ98 1 ART (Alex), 1 INF (Egypt) - SZ80 - Persia. UK has 3 INF, 1 Art on Persia
DD, CR SZ39 - SZ80
DD SZ71 - SZ80
ARM Alex - Sudan
ART, MECH Egypt - Sudan
INF Alex - Egypt
INF W.India - E.Persia (UK2 is picked up by TT from SZ80, enables CR bombard on Iraq)
2 INF S.Africa - RhodesiaSo now you have Cairo with 4 Inf on it. Two are UK, two are ANZAC.
Persia has been activated and can still return to Cairo with those units depending on what Italy does.
Sudan is a hard nut for Italy to crack with just 2 Inf and 1 Art. Italy can send her bomber there if she’s determined to try to get next to Cairo, but thats a 50-50 battle there. Maybe Italy triumphs with 1 Art remaining? That bomber has to land in Ethopia and get defended by the INF from Somalia. Btw that can still get hit by that TT sitting in SZ80 with 1 Inf, 1 Art. Personally, those units are trapped or have to march south to gain 1 IPC for a round or two.
Italy has a single TT at this point, meaning at best you’re seeing 1 Inf, 1 Arm show up on Alex on I1. And that is entirely dependent if the UK has ships remaining in SZ97 and SZ96. Benefit of the doubt you CAN get the units there.
So I1 comes and you stack up Alex with Tobruk units and reinforce with 1 INF, 1 ARM.
So Alex has 4 INF, 1 ART, 1 MECH 2 ARM staring down 4 INF. Odds are in Italy’s favor, until you factor in a Ftr and Tac flying in from Malta, and Persia ferrying in 2 Inf and the UK units in Sudan stepping back to Cairo.All told Cairo holds after UK2:
7 INF, 1 ART, 1 MECH, 1 ARM, 1 TAC, 1 FTR
vs 4 INF, 1 ART, 1 MECH, 2 ARM, 1 Bomber
2% odds for Italy to win that battle on I2.
On I3, perhaps you bought a Ftr on I1, which landed on Alex on I2. You also are now adding 1 Inf, 1 Art that started in Libya.
45% odds to win.And what does Italy have to show for all this? Egypt with a couple units left on it, and units coming in from South Africa, and a second ferry of units from Persia.
At best, you’ve played to a draw. Good for Germany, but this is round 3. Germany needs Cairo 3-4 rounds after this.
Point I’m making is there is no way you’re brining 10 Inf to Cairo by I3. Possibly I4 if UK turtles, at which time the UK has been buying a TT, Inf and Art every round, placing it in South Africa and shuttled three sets by the time you strike, plus the Persian units.
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