Hello everyone,
I have begun creating my own house rule set for A&A 1940 Global called Delta, and I was hoping to pick your brains from time to time with some simple questions.
This one involves the Paratrooper Research & Development rule which allows the nation who controls it to send up to two infantry from an operational airbase, into a territory 3 spaces away to support an attack from sea or ground.
My question is… why is this just a special tech bonus and not a regular rule for all nations with an airbase to use when they wish?.. and if there was such a regular rule, would there be any foreseeable problems with it?
Thanks in advance for your contributions.
Just on the question of “why is this just a special tech bonus and not a regular rule for all nations with an airbase to use when they wish?”, my guess (a purely speculative one) is that paratroops are intended to be seen in the game as “enhanced infantry” (specifically, as enhanced-mobility infantry) in the same way that some of the other techs create enhanced artillery, enhanced fighters, enhanced bombers, enhanced submarines and enhanced factories. You could argue that moving troops by ship enhances their mobility too, but the difference is that no special training is required to put infantrymen aboard a troop transport ship (though landing them on a hostile beach implies the use of landing craft, with which the troops require some familiarity), so infantry movement by sea is presented in the rules a standard (non-tech) capability. Parachute troops, on the other hand, require a lot of training: they need to be jump-qualified (somebody would have to pay me serious money to jump out of a plane that wasn’t sitting on the ground), they need to be able to operate in isolation behind enemy lines (individually until they can link up with the other guys in their outfit, and as a group until they’re relived by friendly ground troops), and they’re often assigned very tough jobs. Also, not all nations in WWII had paratroopers, and those which did have them didn’t all use them to the same extent – so paras weren’t really the same as conventional infantry.
@CWO:
Just on the question of “why is this just a special tech bonus and not a regular rule for all nations with an airbase to use when they wish?”, my guess (a purely speculative one) is that paratroops are intended to be seen in the game as “enhanced infantry” (specifically, as enhanced-mobility infantry) in the same way that some of the other techs create enhanced artillery, enhanced fighters, enhanced bombers, enhanced submarines and enhanced factories. You could argue that moving troops by ship enhances their mobility too, but the difference is that no special training is required to put infantrymen aboard a troop transport ship (though landing them on a hostile beach implies the use of landing craft, with which the troops require some familiarity), so infantry movement by sea is presented in the rules a standard (non-tech) capability. Parachute troops, on the other hand, require a lot of training: they need to be jump-qualified (somebody would have to pay me serious money to jump out of a plane that wasn’t sitting on the ground), they need to be able to operate in isolation behind enemy lines (individually until they can link up with the other guys in their outfit, and as a group until they’re relived by friendly ground troops), and they’re often assigned very tough jobs.� Also, not all nations in WWII had paratroopers, and those which did have them didn’t all use them to the same extent – so paras weren’t really the same as conventional infantry.
I agree with and accept that answer 100%, I suppose I’m just having trouble with the structure of the Research & Development “techs”, because my perception of an enhanced infantry unit is more like a grunt with a Bazooka or flamethrower instead of a rifle. I just think that Larry’s attempt to rationalize the “techs” went overboard with some more than others, especially if you compare the creativity of paratroopers as enhanced infantry with “super subs” as enhanced submarines.
They could have easily called paratroopers heavy infantry which attack at 2 without support and avoided all the complicated rules that go along with paratroopers. Or they could have went the other way and called super subs something more sophisticated like “magnetized torpedo heads” (which were actually worst than the convectional torpedo during Germany’s “happy days”, but you get my point).
My next question is…. I know that the Americans, British and Germans (gliders into Belgium) all had the ability during the war to more or less “drop” infantry from the air, but how about Japan, Russia, Italy, or ANZAC? And considering that the feat is more of a tactical training method and not necessarily a technological advancement, how much of a stretch would it be to accept that all nations could do it? in other words… considering the fact that it’s possible in A&A for ANZAC to obtain the Radar or Rockets technology, couldn’t they learn how to drop infantry from a plane without spending money for research?
@Young:
Hello everyone,
I have begun creating my own house rule set for A&A 1940 Global called Delta, and I was hoping to pick your brains from time to time with some simple questions.
This one involves the Paratrooper Research & Development rule which allows the nation who controls it to send up to two infantry from an operational airbase, into a territory 4 spaces away to support an attack from sea or ground.
My question is… why is this just a special tech bonus and not a regular rule for all nations with an airbase to use when they wish?.. and if there was such a regular rule, would there be any foreseeable problems with it?
Thanks in advance for your contributions.
So, is your basic rules a bit different than G40 OOB?
3. Paratroopers. Up to 2 of your infantry units in each territory with an air base can be moved to an enemy controlled territory 3 or fewer spaces away that is being attacked by your land units from adjacent territories and/or by amphibious assault. If the territory being attacked has an antiaircraft gun, the paratrooper infantry units are subject to antiaircraft fire in the same way as air units. If attacking along with land units from adjacent territories, paratroopers may retreat as normal.
You are correct Baron, my mistake… 3 or less spaces away, not 4 (first post edited).
I was under the assumption that it was up to 4 or less spaces away, and now that I see it’s 3 or less… it makes me feel even safer about using paratroopers as a regular rule.
@Young:
You are correct Baron, my mistake… 3 or less spaces away, not 4 (first post edited).
I was under the assumption that it was up to 4 or less spaces away, and now that I see it’s 3 or less… it makes me feel even safer about using paratroopers as a regular rule.
Since it was a Tech rule first, (and it costs something to develop) you should at least pay 1 IPC for buying a paratrooper token which can be used to upgrade an Infantry unit when needed in Combat Move.
The token are kept on the Capital but cannot be captured.
The player simply discards them when an Inf is airdropped.
Gliderborne troops were considered airborne but were not necessarily jump trained. In fact the paras at times looked a bit down at the glider troops. I don’t know how you would necessarily add this to the game without going in directions that’s some players are less apt to accept.
Having sculpts from HBG, I allow air transports to drop/glide air borne troops at factors of plus 1 to para sculpts one to a transport. For regular infantry they may be dropped but are considered gliderborne and attack at thier regular roll of one as opposed to the para rolling at two when dropped.
I know this is unrealistic but I believe it adds another dynamic to the game. As an aside I allow air transports to move any two infantry up to six spaces during non combat movement and have considered allowing one artillery only as a possible HR. The artillery is a big maybe. There are some examples of this but not on a large scale and the artillery pieces were relatively small.
I think this would be a good addition; not overused, but still having a niche of useful curcumstances and adding dome flavor. What I dont like is that they suffer AA fire in the same round as aircraft; if they were a common rule they may be used just to protect planes.
The USSR and japan did have paratroopers, used in teh Ukraine and the taking of the DEI, respectively. They were used by all nations as elite infantry, as well tho, so if tokens must be spent, these infantry should attack at +1 in the first round of combat of any battle.
Here is an historical reference on paratroopers used in WWII:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airborne_forces
Thank you Baron, Toblerone, and Alfa… I appreciate all advice and may steal an idea or two along the way (always giving due credit of course :-) ) My goal with this endeavor is to try my best to modify rules rather than invent them (even though I may have to along the way). I would also like to make these modifications acceptable among as many casual playing groups as possible, so I’m trying my best to stay away from needing HBG sculpts.
Here is my modification at this point… take the Paratrooper R&D tech as is, and make it a regular rule for all nations to use. The factor I am struggling with right now is the lack of a physical transport unit to move the infantry, perhaps bombers could have a duel purpose.
Thanks for the suggestions, I will think on them heavily, and please post any more advice that you may have on the subject.
@Baron:
Here is an historical reference on paratroopers used in WWII:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airborne_forces
Extremely helpful… cheers.
The USSR and japan did have paratroopers, used in teh Ukraine and the taking of the DEI, respectively.
Very encouraging in the case for making it universal to all nations.
@Baron:
@Young:
You are correct Baron, my mistake… 3 or less spaces away, not 4 (first post edited).
I was under the assumption that it was up to 4 or less spaces away, and now that I see it’s 3 or less… it makes me feel even safer about using paratroopers as a regular rule.
Since it was a Tech rule first, (and it costs something to develop) you should at least pay 1 IPC for buying a paratrooper token which can be used to upgrade an Infantry unit when needed in Combat Move.
The token are kept on the Capital but cannot be captured.
The player simply discards them when an Inf is airdropped.
To simplify but to not allowed it too easily for poor nation is simply to make a 1 time fee to obtain the tech.
It will be a kind of Paratrooper school and infrastructure. It cost 5 or 6 IPCs (according to the price of a tech roll) and you gain automatic access to it via your Airbase as usual.
So, it will remains a player’s choice to invest in them or not.
It will be more historically accurate since it was mostly the wealthier nation which have paratroopers.
I think I do the same as toblerone77. I use the HBG Airborne Infantry and Transport Plane sculpts for Paratroops and make them available to any nations I have the sculpts for. While so far only the US, Germany and Japan have unique Airborne sculpts, plus Russia also has a Transport plane, thanks to the US Supplement sets in Allied colors, I can let UK, ANZAC and France have paratroopers. For Italy, I use the FMG pieces of their BR20 Transport plane and Sub-Machine gun Infantry unit to represent paratroops.
I have made this a unit available to any nation from the beginning of the game. On my tech board, I have replaced the Paratroop tech with Heavy Tanks.
Here’s the following stats for Paratroops and Transport planes we use:
Paratroops – A 2, D 2, M 1, C 4 – Attack @ 3 on first round of an Airborne Drop. Paratroops load onto a transport plane at an Airbase and can be carried by the transport plane to a battle area within the range of the transport plane. If transport plane is hit by AA, paratroopers are lost with the transport plane. Paratroops can also be dropped behind enemy lines and take control of any empty territory that does not contain a victory city, facility or capital. Paratroops may also attack lightly defended territories behind enemy lines but if the battle goes badly, there is no retreat for the paratroops.
Transport Planes – A 0, D 0, M 6, C 9 – Transport planes movement are affected by bonuses like all other aircraft – +1 from Airbase, +1 with Long Range tech, +2 from Airbase with Long Range tech.
Transport planes have no combat value and operate much like naval transport ships. If an enemy force attacks a territory that contains transport plane(s) in addition to combat units, the transport planes are the last units to be destroyed. If an enemy force moves into a territory containing only transport planes, the transport planes are automatically destroyed.
Transport planes can transport 1 Airborne Infantry during combat move up to the limit of transport’s range as long as it can land in any friendly territory. Airborne infantry MUST be loaded at an Airbase.
During Non-Combat Move, Transport planes can transport 1 infantry unit of any type from any friendly territory to any other friendly territory.
During Non-Combat Move, Transport planes can transport 2 infantry units of any type from any friendly Airbase to any other friendly territory. To move 2 infantry, they MUST be loaded at an Airbase.
I think I do the same as toblerone77. I use the HBG Airborne Infantry and Transport Plane sculpts for Paratroops and make them available to any nations I have the sculpts for. While so far only the US, Germany and Japan have unique Airborne sculpts, plus Russia also has a Transport plane, thanks to the US Supplement sets in Allied colors, I can let UK, ANZAC and France have paratroopers. For Italy, I use the FMG pieces of their BR20 Transport plane and Sub-Machine gun Infantry unit to represent paratroops.
I have made this a unit available to any nation from the beginning of the game. On my tech board, I have replaced the Paratroop tech with Heavy Tanks.
Here’s the following stats for Paratroops and Transport planes we use:Paratroops – A 2, D 2, M 1, C 4 – Attack @ 3 on first round of an Airborne Drop. Paratroops load onto a transport plane at an Airbase and can be carried by the transport plane to a battle area within the range of the transport plane. If transport plane is hit by AA, paratroopers are lost with the transport plane. Paratroops can also be dropped behind enemy lines and take control of any empty territory that does not contain a victory city, facility or capital. Paratroops may also attack lightly defended territories behind enemy lines but if the battle goes badly, there is no retreat for the paratroops.
Transport Planes – A 0, D 0, M 6, C 9 – Transport planes movement are affected by bonuses like all other aircraft – +1 from Airbase, +1 with Long Range tech, +2 from Airbase with Long Range tech.
Transport planes have no combat value and operate much like naval transport ships. If an enemy force attacks a territory that contains transport plane(s) in addition to combat units, the transport planes are the last units to be destroyed. If an enemy force moves into a territory containing only transport planes, the transport planes are automatically destroyed.
Transport planes can transport 1 Airborne Infantry during combat move up to the limit of transport’s range as long as it can land in any friendly territory. Airborne infantry MUST be loaded at an Airbase.
During Non-Combat Move, Transport planes can transport 1 infantry unit of any type from any friendly territory to any other friendly territory.
During Non-Combat Move, Transport planes can transport 2 infantry units of any type from any friendly Airbase to any other friendly territory. To move 2 infantry, they MUST be loaded at an Airbase.
Yeah we’re pretty similar. I’m more liberal in some aspects.
As for YG’s idea, I like the simplicity and understand his goal to stick with OOB pieces. However I’m a piece junkie and would probably put units on the board if for esthetics alone.
@Young:
My next question is…. I know that the Americans, British and Germans (gliders into Belgium) all had the ability during the war to more or less “drop” infantry from the air, but how about Japan, Russia, Italy, or ANZAC? And considering that the feat is more of a tactical training method and not necessarily a technological advancement, how much of a stretch would it be to accept that all nations could do it? in other words… considering the fact that it’s possible in A&A for ANZAC to obtain the Radar or Rockets technology, couldn’t they learn how to drop infantry from a plane without spending money for research? Â
One way to look at this question would be keep in mind that A&A is basically a strategic-level game, and thus that it depicts large-scale operations rather than tactical actions. I think that nearly all the A&A player nations (except for China) did have (or certainly could have developed) some para units in WWII – but the distinction I’d make between the US, the UK and Germany on the one hand and all the other countries on the other hand is that only those three countries developed para forces large enough to tackle strategic-scale targets (like the invasion of Crete or Operation Market-Garden). So that would be a possible rationalization for keeping paras a tech: they represent the large investment required not just to produce units of the paratrooper type but also to produce them on a large enough scale (at minimum at the divisional level, I’d say) for them to have an impact at the A&A game’s strategic level.
I have begun creating my own house rule set for A&A 1940 Global called Delta, and I was hoping to pick your brains from time to time with some simple questions. <<
By the way, will your consultants on this project be code-named the Delta Force? :-D
I think I do the same as toblerone77. I use the HBG Airborne Infantry and Transport Plane sculpts for Paratroops and make them available to any nations I have the sculpts for. While so far only the US, Germany and Japan have unique Airborne sculpts, plus Russia also has a Transport plane, thanks to the US Supplement sets in Allied colors, I can let UK, ANZAC and France have paratroopers. For Italy, I use the FMG pieces of their BR20 Transport plane and Sub-Machine gun Infantry unit to represent paratroops.
I have made this a unit available to any nation from the beginning of the game. On my tech board, I have replaced the Paratroop tech with Heavy Tanks.
Here’s the following stats for Paratroops and Transport planes we use:Paratroops – A 2, D 2, M 1, C 4 – Attack @ 3 on first round of an Airborne Drop. Paratroops load onto a transport plane at an Airbase and can be carried by the transport plane to a battle area within the range of the transport plane. If transport plane is hit by AA, paratroopers are lost with the transport plane. Paratroops can also be dropped behind enemy lines and take control of any empty territory that does not contain a victory city, facility or capital. Paratroops may also attack lightly defended territories behind enemy lines but if the battle goes badly, there is no retreat for the paratroops.
Transport Planes – A 0, D 0, M 6, C 9 – Transport planes movement are affected by bonuses like all other aircraft – +1 from Airbase, +1 with Long Range tech, +2 from Airbase with Long Range tech.
Transport planes have no combat value and operate much like naval transport ships. If an enemy force attacks a territory that contains transport plane(s) in addition to combat units, the transport planes are the last units to be destroyed. If an enemy force moves into a territory containing only transport planes, the transport planes are automatically destroyed.
Transport planes can transport 1 Airborne Infantry during combat move up to the limit of transport’s range as long as it can land in any friendly territory. Airborne infantry MUST be loaded at an Airbase.
During Non-Combat Move, Transport planes can transport 1 infantry unit of any type from any friendly territory to any other friendly territory.
During Non-Combat Move, Transport planes can transport 2 infantry units of any type from any friendly Airbase to any other friendly territory. To move 2 infantry, they MUST be loaded at an Airbase.
Thanks KNP for that great analysis of your house rule, much more detailed than what I myself am going for, but your post really shows the challenges involved in getting the paratrooper rule right (or at least close).
@CWO:
@Young:
My next question is…. I know that the Americans, British and Germans (gliders into Belgium) all had the ability during the war to more or less “drop” infantry from the air, but how about Japan, Russia, Italy, or ANZAC? And considering that the feat is more of a tactical training method and not necessarily a technological advancement, how much of a stretch would it be to accept that all nations could do it? in other words… considering the fact that it’s possible in A&A for ANZAC to obtain the Radar or Rockets technology, couldn’t they learn how to drop infantry from a plane without spending money for research?
One way to look at this question would be keep in mind that A&A is basically a strategic-level game, and thus that it depicts large-scale operations rather than tactical actions. I think that nearly all the A&A player nations (except for China) did have (or certainly could have developed) some para units in WWII – but the distinction I’d make between the US, the UK and Germany on the one hand and all the other countries on the other hand is that only those three countries developed para forces large enough to tackle strategic-scale targets (like the invasion of Crete or Operation Market-Garden). So that would be a possible rationalization for keeping paras a tech: they represent the large investment required not just to produce units of the paratrooper type but also to produce them on a large enough scale (at minimum at the divisional level, I’d say) for them to have an impact at the A&A game’s strategic level.
I have begun creating my own house rule set for A&A 1940 Global called Delta, and I was hoping to pick your brains from time to time with some simple questions. <<
By the way, will your consultants on this project be code-named the Delta Force? :-D
Although I respect the logistics and training involved in pulling off an airborne assault, I don’t feel it’s that far ahead of a strategic bombing campaign, or amphibious assault including bombardment and air support. I also understand your point about an infantry drop being a tactical operation rather than a large scale strategy, I would say that Kamikaze pilots fit that bill as well and they are represented in the regular rules rather than a “R&D tech”.
If I do call it the delta force… you can be Chuck Norris 8-)
After some thought, I think the G40 paratrooper rule as is… is a very “safe” direction to go for implementing a “regular” paratrooper rule in a lot of ways…
1. It really limits the amount of infantry that can be dropped during a single turn, this should prevent a surprise attack of 10+ infantry overwhelming an unsupported enemy territory from 3 spaces away.
2. Although it’s difficult to picture how games with KNP’s house rule turns out, I’m assuming that an air transport might be the transport unit of choice in most scenarios. So in my uneducated opinion, the limit of 2 infantry per airbase should avoid making the sea transport obsolete (or at least less attractive).
3. Using paratroopers as support for an attack coming from land or sea just makes sense IMO, I can’t imagine that it was often where infantry were dropped into hostile territories alone without any rendezvous with other friendly forces. If there were such cases in the war, it should be an exemption to the rule rather than allowing it to happen all the time during the course of an A&A game.
4. Although the current paratrooper rule is not very sexy, it seems to be more likely acceptable to the casual player who may find it difficult to… or unwilling to… obtain the extra sculpts for a simple house rule. However, Baron’s advise to make each nation pay for the special ability if they want it seems very reasonable.
I’m thinking a one time fee of $5 will give your nation the paratrooper ability for the rest of the game, it can be purchased any time during the purchase new units phase and becomes active immediately. Thoughts?
@Young:
4. Although the current paratrooper rule is not very sexy, it seems to be more likely acceptable to the casual player who may find it difficult to… or unwilling to… obtain the extra sculpts for a simple house rule. However, Baron’s advise to make each nation pay for the special ability if they want it seems very reasonable.
I’m thinking a **one time fee of $5 will give your nation the paratrooper ability for the rest of the game, it can be purchased any time during the purchase new units phase and becomes active immediately. Thoughts? **
For once, I don’t say such crazy things like Munchhausen. :-D
Getting a marks on the calendar. :wink:
