Balancing Cruiser (CL) and Battleship (BB) units with other A&A units

@baron-Münchhausen

Thanks for telling me. I’ll try it sometime.

Damn written texts, we cannot ear sarcastic undertone.
😊😊😊

Imperious Leader, SS, and myself have been discussing “Call Shots”, or as I (still) think of them: “pick the hit unit on 1”, in my thread about adding Heavy Artillery to Classic A&A. I pasted in the full transcript below. I thought I would break this out to its own conversation.

So far, what is being discussed as a Call Shot is when a player rolls a 1 when attacking with Battleships, Tactical Bombers, or Heavy Artillery, the player who rolls the one picks the unit taken as a loss.

I am very skeptical of Call Shots. I will admit that I haven’t played with such rules so I don’t have any personal experience. And while I wouldn’t call it game-breaking to give certain units special powers when I roll a 1 for your attack, it just doesn’t sit well in my mind.

So I thought I would make this a separate topic so that others could chime in. I’m willing to be convinced and admit that I do need to try it out. But I also doubt that I’m the only one for whom the thought of my opponent picking my losses leaves a bad taste in my mouth…

-Midnight_Reaper

Full transcript:
@SS:

@Midnight_Reaper:

@SS:

@Midnight_Reaper:

@Imperious:

1 on Attack roll you pick the target with no return fire

Try it one of two ways:

what we call a “call shot” pick land unit as loss alternatively if you roll a one, defender chooses loss and that unit cant fire back

you will like one of these options

I would have to try them out before I could give a full opinion of them. My question to you is: why the emphasis on ‘pick the hit unit on 1’ rules? Is this a new addition to the meta of house rules here? Submarines have pretty much also fought this way, but I’ve previously seen proposed house rules for Tac Bombers to ‘pick their hit on 1’. Is this becoming a thing?

Should I start a new thread to ask about the popularity and usefulness of ‘pick your hit on 1’ critical strike rules?

-Midnight_Reaper

I have in my WW2 40 game Tac (Dive) bombers  D12  A7 D4 M4 C10 roll a 2 or less on A and D can pick target with no return shot for ground and naval. The 2 or less roll hit is for more of a accurate shot on a piece. So I use the Tac as a 2 different scenario.

Also in one of my 39 games there are Dive Bombers and Naval Figs that can pick the target on a 4 (Dive) or 1 (Fig) but the defender still gets a return shot while the attacker gets to pick the piece.
Pretty much these pieces are in just the 39 games and anybody that has housed ruled there game (G40 OOB) but just a few if any. From what I’ve seen posted on site anyway.

It must have been your Tac Bomber rules that I read. It just seems like the idea of “He shoots, he scores, he crits, he picks the casualty!” has become something I’ve noticed of late. As I’ve said before, I’m not a big fan of that idea in the abstract, but I will admit to really needing to try it out for real before I can truly say that I don’t like it at all.

-Midnight_Reaper

The main reason for Tac Bombers to have this call shot is for both ground and naval attacks plus it gets the Tac Bomber more involved in the game. There like the Cruiser. Nobody really buys them. Thats also why my Cruiser is (D12)  A7 D7 M2 C9. (but you need to lower your destroyers 1 value in A and D). So Destroyers would be A3 D3.  Its a good boost for Anzac, FEC and Italy. As I stated before you need to play test everything.

You could try with the defender at least gets a return shot if you have your doubts.

@SS:

@Imperious:

My question to you is: why the emphasis on ‘pick the hit unit on 1’ rules?

This again is what we call : Call shot

Having something that breaks up the idea that the loser of the unit can choose whatever he wants as a combat loss is a good thing. The artillery units generally carpet bomb whole areas of the battlefield, and Heavy Artillery doing the most damage. Second having such a unit makes it very valuable in the game, by playing you will find out. Thirdly its really fun and i would further suggest the Battleship have this capability. Reason: because the BB has the guns of the greatest range and can shoot targets before they can fire back as they need to be closer to even have a chance.

Oh great IL. Now I got to add this to my Battleships in games !  :-D

Death Heads plays by me and he wanted the no return shot from Battleships and Cruisers  for 39 game and we played 2 games that way but the rest of guys in group didn’t want it. Go figure. I can at least see the Battleship Bombardment hit gets a no return shot. its like pulling teeth with some people but what it is is what it is.  :wink:

“House Rules” changes or additions to Axis & Allies: 1914

To better balance play between the Allies and the Central Powers,  to improve historical accuracy, and to add a new Irish rebellion option. This is how I will play A&A 1914 henceforth, chez moi.

Germany Set Up
Add a German Cruiser and Transport to Sea Zone 24 and a German Cruiser in Sea Zone 26.

The Germans had a respectable navy operating in the South Atlantic and in the Pacific in 1914 and there were running sea battles between German and British flotillas during this time in these regions.  The game should reflect this, and it also adds a necessary element of tension in what is otherwise a complete sideshow (Africa) where the UK and France are not challenged at all.

Movement: ENTRAIN
Once a turn, before resolving combat, a player may move any number of pieces from one single space directly along a path of contiguous spaces to his capital, as long as the capital is uncontested and the route is not blocked by hostile or contested territory.  Any sea spaces involved also must be free of all enemy naval units and also contain at least one friendly Transport ship.  This movement must end in the capital; units may not stop elsewhere en route.

This reflects nations’ abilities to transfer troops rapidly along a rail system from front to front, as happened regularly during the war, particularly for the Germans for their big 1918 offensive after their Eastern Front stabilized; the current game, with its slow movement rates, makes this impossible.

Submarine Sneak Attack
Submarines always have a “first shot” ability when attacking or defending and then the option to submerge after any round of combat.  Submarines as defenders only hit on a roll of 1.  Hits by submarines are inflicted before returning fire.  Submarine versus submarine combat is considered simultaneous, as per normal combat.

Similar concept to “regular” A&A (WWII).  I don’t know why the 1914 game doesn’t allow for “sneak attacks.”  It was even harder to detect or avoid enemy subs in WWI than WWII.  And Germany badly needs this equalizer.

Swiss Mobilization
If  Switzerland’s neutrality is violated, it mobilizes 6 units (1 artillery and 5 infantry) hostile to the invaders.  Switzerland’s IPC value remains at 1.

Switzerland preserved its neutrality through two world wars by deterring attackers who would have faced a nation fully in arms and prepared to resist from many mountain strongholds and fortresses.  The Swiss should be much harder to subdue than this game provides and a special rule is in order, especially given the game board’s layout that makes Switzerland an overly tempting target out of proportion to to geography.

Russian Revolution
The Russian revolution rule is always in effect, not merely an optional rule. If the Revolution occurs, Russian IPCs are returned to the bank, not awarded to a player, but the Central Powers DO get credit for “capturing” a capital (Moscow).

The Revolution knocks Russia out of the war and it’s silly to punish the Central Powers by denying them credit for this.

Revolt in Ireland
No non-British Allied land or air units are permitted in Ireland. The German player may invest a total of 3 IPCs during each Purchase Units phase in hopes of fomenting an Irish rebellion – similar to the technology tables in early edition A&A, 3 IPCs spent buys ONE immediate die roll THAT TURN only (i.e., the spent IPCs are not retained or carried over to succeeding turns).  Having any German ship adjacent to Ireland at this time provides a +1 to the die roll for this check. If a modified roll of 6 is rolled on a die, Irish nationalist republicans revolt.  Irish rebellion is also automatically triggered by any German land unit present in Ireland at the end of a German turn.+

If Ireland rebels, immediately place two infantry figures in Ireland under the control of the German player; these represent Irish rebel forces hostile to Great Britain.  If Great Britain loses control of Ireland or Ireland is contested, at the start of each British player Purchase Units phase the British player forfeits as many IPCs as there are enemy units in Ireland directly to the German player, up to a maximum of 8.  If Great Britain loses control of Ireland and Ireland is not contested Ireland becomes controlled by Germany and Germany receives its IPC value. At the start of each German turn that Ireland is controlled by Germany or contested, another Irish rebel infantry figure is placed in Ireland, up to a maximum of four rebel infantry units. Only infantry units are raised as Irish rebel units but there is no limit to other nation’s units that can be moved to Ireland.  Irish rebel units may not leave Ireland. Ireland will only revolt once in a game.

This rule simulates the complicated political situation existing in Ireland during WWI and the historical “Easter Uprising” of 1916. Because German submarines were often used to smuggle weapons and personnel to Ireland during this time, and German invasion prospects encouraged the Fenians,  the presence of German naval units increases the chances of rebellion.  The USA and France traditionally sympathized with Irish republicanism and their governments were not likely to agree to their militaries forsaking the war against Germany to suppress Irish nationalism.

Coach I would go with the scale you use for tactical bombers. Even though there is no intention to use them with WWII era aircraft, sizing them in the tactical bomber scale provides a more consistent line-up between products. In other words there are many who use HBG pieces for many uses and would like the consistency of scale that HBG provides with your other product’s. IMO it keeps the product line more linear.

You guys are gonna get my thread removed with that kind of talk. Remember what happened to the concentration camp house rule thread…. ZAP!

Ya I agree. You still need the T-34’s.

@Nukchebi0:

Out of lack of better location, I put this post here. Anyways,I think I have devised a great way to incorporate the cruiser into the game. A cruiser was, in essense, a battleship without armor. It had the same fire power (or nearly), but required less materials and production to build than a battleship. Since it was thinly armored, it was much more susceptible to torpedoes or dive bombers. Taking all these factors into account, a cruiser should be made a 12 IPC, one shot kill unit. It can bombard, attack on four and defends on a three, but is easily taken down.

Obviously, though, no one is going to buy a destroyer with a much better unit at the same price. Thus, the price of destroyers should be reduced to 10 IPC’s (or 8) to encourage more purchases, and reflect on reality more (I believe the Navy had over 900 destroyers by the end of the war.) Perhaps the values could be changed, but at least the price should be altered.

Since it looks like heavy cruisers will be added in the new Axis & Allies Guadalcanal set, I will weigh in here on the subject.

I am not sure where you get the idea that a cruiser is a battleship without armor.  All of the WW2 cruiser designs were effected to a greater or lesser degree by the between war naval disarmament treaties, restricting cruisers to no more than 10,000 tons standard displacement.  The Italians, the Japanese, and the Germans all cheated on this, but even they could not get too carried away, so even their ships went no more that 15,000 tons.  The smallest true battleship built between the wars had a displacement of 35,000 tons.  That is a huge difference.  Armament carried by a heavy cruiser was limited to 8 inch guns, with a typical shell weight of around 250 pounds, with 8 to 10 guns being carried.  That give you a 2,000 to 2,500 pound broadside per cruiser.  The shell weight of the battleship guns used in the new battleships were as follows:  US-16 inch at 2,700 pounds for AP shell; British-14 inch at 1,590 pounds, 15 inch at 1,938 pounds, and 16 inch at 2,048 pounds; German-15 inch at 1,764 pounds; Italian-15 inch at 1,951 pounds; French-15 inch at 1,949 pounds; and the Japanese -18 inch at 3,320 pounds.  The lighest battleship gun projectile was over 6 times heavier than the 8 inch shell, while the heaviest were about 11 and 13 times the weight.  A battleship could very easily wreck a cruiser with one broadside, as the Italians discovered at Cape Matapan in 1941, while a battleship could take quite a pounding from a cruiser with moderate damage, see the South Dakota at Guadalcanal in November, 1942.  When it came to AA fire, the cruiser was closer to the battleship.

As for torpedo damage, a battleship had sufficient beam for a side torpedo protection system, which enabled it to absorb several torpedo hits before being crippled, depending on where the torpedoes hit of course.  A hit near the rudders, as happened to the  Bismarck, may not sink the ship, but still leave it helpless to further attack.  A cruiser lacked sufficient beam for a side protection system, and depended on good compartmentation to survive.  Normally, after one torpedo hit, a cruiser was no longer fighting the enemy, but fighting to stay afloat.  Two hits had a good chance of sinking a cruiser, and three almost certainly would.

Putting all of this together, what should be the characteristics of a heavy cruiser in Axis & Allies?  If you set a battleship at 4 attack on ships and aircraft, 4 defense on ships and aircraft, and two hits to sink, you can work backwards to the cruiser.  A cruiser should get 3 attack and 3 defense with 1 hit to sink, but only 2 attack on a battleship.  The destroyer should drop to 2 attack and defense on ships and aircraft, with a 3 attack and defense on subs.  Battleships and cruisers have an attack and defense of 1 against subs.  The IPC cost could be based on how long it took to build the different types of ships.  Destroyers typically took a year, cruisers and carriers two years, battleships three years, and subs maybe 9 months, but that implies a lot of prefabrication and a sub has much tighter tolerances than the normal ship, so figure the cost the same as the destroyer.  This would give the destroyer and sub each costing 8 IPC, the cruiser and carrier 16 IPC, and the battleship 24 IPC.  The destroyer gets a 2 attack on a battleship from the torpedoes that it carries.

I will be interested to see how this compares to the ships that will be coming out in the Guadalcanal game.