Would the Allies win without Russia in the real war?

@F_alk:

Yup, your forefathers murdered native americans and black slaves. Seems like that is less sick.

as my name clearly suggests, im russian so i dont know wtf you are talking about ( native americans?)

as to the second, more sensical comment made by guerrila guy:

the “killing” that you speak of was done by The N.K.V.D, not “the russian people”, and i should add that the statistics about this killing are greatly greatly exagerated in west (particularly in the usa)

heres a good paper on the topic: http://www.soviet-empire.com/ussr/viewtopic.php?t=75http://www.soviet-empire.com/ussr/viewtopic.php?t=75

Soviet Union : a country whose secret police sent people to hard labor centers for long periods of time, many of them innocent of any crime.

Nazi Germany: a Fascist, Rascist state, who’s ideology called for brutal repression and ensavment of all peoples deemed inferior “Untermenschen” (Slavs, jews, roma, gypsies) and implemented Mobile killing squads (EinsatzGruppen) to commit mass murder in occupied eastern europe directed at jews, Russian officers and intellectuals. ( these units were filled not only by Gestapo and SS, but by commen wehrmact soldiers, picked out from their divisions)

The germans policy towards Soviet Prisoners of war was inhuman, and not fit even for farm cattle. Barbaric treatment of all “Untermenchen” was taught and encouraged.

The Third reich is the only Modern state to have completly devoted its self to the systematic extermination of whole races and ethnic groups.

every one is getting off topic here.

I agree with CC here…. and apologize for furthering the “off-topic-ness”.

@ForOurMotherland:

the germans of today are normal people, but i cant help but disgusted at the fact that their forefathers were sick murderers.

glad im not a german :D ^^

This is bull. Most germans didn’t have any choice for what happened, this is a rather ignorant comment! :roll:

If Germany didnt declare war against russia in summer-41, the war would have ended after moths months. Japan would not bomb pearl, germany and Britain would eventually sign a truce, or brittain would have been forces to surrender.

But Germany wanted war against russia nomather what, Hitler hated communism as much as the jews.
So , if we say Russia didnt exist, USa wouldnt get involved in the war, and britain would loose against ger and italy.
End of story

Had Germany waited to defeat Britian before declaring on Russia, eithe rRussia would have declared on him (which I believe Stalin had planned to do) or he would have declared afterwards.

I don’t think Germany’s decision about Russia had any bearing on Japan’s decision on Pearl Harbor.

if you look at the russian front most of the major defeats on Germany were inflicted in the east…

battle of moscow, stalingrad, kursk…

People say that USSR would have declared war on germany had Hitler not backstabbed first, but you have to remember that the USSR wasnt exactly best pals with the US and UK…after all during the russian civil war the US and UK sent troops to fight against the bolsheviks.

also the reason that the Battle of Britain was one was because of germany withdrawing air power from France to the east (balkans and Russia)…had this not happened i think Britain would have been knocked out around early 1942, or maybe earlier then that.

with Britain gone it would be very hard for the US to attack trans-atlantic against a well defended europe.

also it was the Germans who declared war on the USA after pearl harbour not the other way round. USA might never have come into the european war.

oh btw just reading other posts on ‘could germany have broken USSR’ i think they could have easily…the invasion was meant to be in may but it was put back due to invasion of balkans…this meant that the german army was stopped before moscow (20miles) by the perma-frost…which had they invaded on time would not have been there. Germany made terible blunders…the fact that they went for a set-piece battle at stalingrad was dumb, as was the 1942 offensive on causasus oil fields in general. At kursk yet again due to massive delays to the attack the russians were able to prepare many defenses to stop it…which is what happened.

i think the soviet victory was more thanks to German blunders between summer 1942 and summer 1943.

The Soviet Union destroyed over 500 German divisions. All the other allies combined destroyed about 170.

THE ALLIS WOULD HAVE LOST. WHO TOOK BERLIN
WHO DISTRACTED HITTLER
THE MOTHER LAND

One could argue Russia was able to win because the Allies distracted Hitler. You know the whole d-day thingy. Not to mention the 600 000 man army Hitler threw at the allies in Dec 44’. Those division were desperately needed on the eastern front.

I’ll also like to mention that the allies agreed to let Russia take Berlin. Russia whined that they should be the ones to take it as they had suffered the most. The allies couldn’t agrue with that.

Ok, so the Allies only confronted a 600,000 strong army. The army that attacked Russia was 3 million strong with thousands of tanks as well.

This is my first post on this board. Reading the thread another question came to my mind. But first my answer on the topic at hand.

IMO it’s clear that without Germany having to bother about Russia, England would have been gone rather quickly. There was about 600 planes in England at the begining of the battle of Britain and a similar pathetic number of land troops. The battle of Britain had to be cancelled because too many ressources (especially plane had to be sent to fight Russia). Radar or not once the German would have landed on the Island the poor british would have surrender in a few weeks if not less.

I doubt the American would have fought Germany at that point, not having a foothold in the old continent.

Concentrating their effort on the Pacific the US would probably have won there.

But like other said Hitler was obsesed with Russia and saving europe from communism, because he knew that Stalin was preparing an offensive on europe. Now my question is: without the german army slaugthering the russian army like pigs, would England, France, an unprepared Germany and US have been able to stop the Russian army from making europe a communist collony and becoming the sole world power. Do european owe in some way their freedom and the US their economical power to germany?

you could also look at how fast germany collapsed in the east after d-day,because it was way out of proportion to the retreats they had made pre-d-day. They collapsed in the east after d-day.

either way i think that if the russians had attacked germany first, and tried to invade as the above poster said they would, they would have been smashed.

they wouldnt have the russian winter, which realy has saved them in countless wars, and they would be crushed.

we know this, napoleonic wars, every battle outside russia pre 1812 they lost to france, in the russian campaign 1812-1813 they lost until the winter.

russia realy has a terrible military history, they have been saved countless times by their enemies under-estimating the winter.

this also happened with germany, they failed to take moscow because of the winter freeze.

The Soviets were winning the war long before D-Day. The reason the retreats speedened were of course having a second front and split forces are going to reduce effectiveness. Without D-Day, I believe the Soviet Union would still have defeated Germany.

@Thebismarck:

@Guerrilla:

That is BM that you give no chance for development(like long range bombers, Radar, IT, and the A-Bomb)….Regardless of Russia being out of the war The US would have eventually been sucked in and given them a full wack…THey would have beaten the Germans… Industrialists for some reason always beat Craftsmen.

GG

Industrialists don’t beat craftmenship! It’s the other way around! Do you think 1000 spearmen could defeat 10 soldiers with sub-machineguns? Another exemple, US may have a bigger force then Canada does, but our troops are better trained because we have a smaller force. Also we have the best commandos,snipers and ground support units in the world!!! I saw a competition for it. It was so cool.

The reason both Italy and France were not well equipped for the war is because their industry focused on craftsmanship and not mass production. They made good weapons, but they could not turn them out fast enough to utilize them well. This was part of the reason that France was overwhelmed so quickly by Germany, and why Germany had to come to Italy’s rescue in Africa.

@Mercader:

you could also look at how fast germany collapsed in the east after d-day,because it was way out of proportion to the retreats they had made pre-d-day. They collapsed in the east after d-day.

either way i think that if the russians had attacked germany first, and tried to invade as the above poster said they would, they would have been smashed.

they wouldnt have the russian winter, which realy has saved them in countless wars, and they would be crushed.

we know this, napoleonic wars, every battle outside russia pre 1812 they lost to france, in the russian campaign 1812-1813 they lost until the winter.

russia realy has a terrible military history, they have been saved countless times by their enemies under-estimating the winter.

this also happened with germany, they failed to take moscow because of the winter freeze.

Then why did Paton was called back after the fall of Berlin? Why did the allied decided to make a temporary peace with the russian that could only lead to the cold war, if they were so easy to defeat outside russia.

Russia was completly disorganised but their number was incredible. Even after 20 millions had been killed they were still a threat to the west.

If we hadn’t landed in France I’m positive the Russians would not have stopped at Berlin. By the time we landed the war was already over, Russia had finally gotten its act together and Germany was doomed.

If Russia was a neutral country, somehow, then the U.S. would put a lot of effort into resupplying the U.K. to keep from it being taken over. At least I’d like to think that, 8)

@Thebismarck:

@Guerrilla:

That is BM that you give no chance for development(like long range bombers, Radar, IT, and the A-Bomb)….Regardless of Russia being out of the war The US would have eventually been sucked in and given them a full wack…THey would have beaten the Germans… Industrialists for some reason always beat Craftsmen.

GG

Industrialists don’t beat craftmenship! It’s the other way around! Do you think 1000 spearmen could defeat 10 soldiers with sub-machineguns? Another exemple, US may have a bigger force then Canada does, but our troops are better trained because we have a smaller force. Also we have the best commandos,snipers and ground support units in the world!!! I saw a competition for it. It was so cool.

Dude were not dealing with two seperate time periods… plus bad Ratio… Lets choose One Million Spears Vs. 100 Sub-machine Guns and limited Rounds (250 Each) and no supplies for 3 hours… If your really good you will knock out 250,000 if you shoot one bullet per man… but what about the other 750,00… this isn’t a 1970’s Space Alien Shoot 'Em Up with unlimited ammo… the logistics come into play… Back to WW2 comparison -wise it is the 1930’s(Russians and most Minor Allies) and 1940’s (Britain and US) vs. 1940’s (Japan and Italy) and 1950’s (Germany)… 10 years… and if I might add I think in some respects the Americans were better Craftsmen… look at such Creations as the M-1 Garand (compared to the Kar-98 Mauser or the Carcano) and the B-17 (compared to the Ju-88 Its German Equivelant for mainline Bombers)…

GG