you could also look at how fast germany collapsed in the east after d-day,because it was way out of proportion to the retreats they had made pre-d-day. They collapsed in the east after d-day.

either way i think that if the russians had attacked germany first, and tried to invade as the above poster said they would, they would have been smashed.

they wouldnt have the russian winter, which realy has saved them in countless wars, and they would be crushed.

we know this, napoleonic wars, every battle outside russia pre 1812 they lost to france, in the russian campaign 1812-1813 they lost until the winter.

russia realy has a terrible military history, they have been saved countless times by their enemies under-estimating the winter.

this also happened with germany, they failed to take moscow because of the winter freeze.

if you look at the russian front most of the major defeats on Germany were inflicted in the east…

battle of moscow, stalingrad, kursk…

People say that USSR would have declared war on germany had Hitler not backstabbed first, but you have to remember that the USSR wasnt exactly best pals with the US and UK…after all during the russian civil war the US and UK sent troops to fight against the bolsheviks.

also the reason that the Battle of Britain was one was because of germany withdrawing air power from France to the east (balkans and Russia)…had this not happened i think Britain would have been knocked out around early 1942, or maybe earlier then that.

with Britain gone it would be very hard for the US to attack trans-atlantic against a well defended europe.

also it was the Germans who declared war on the USA after pearl harbour not the other way round. USA might never have come into the european war.

oh btw just reading other posts on ‘could germany have broken USSR’ i think they could have easily…the invasion was meant to be in may but it was put back due to invasion of balkans…this meant that the german army was stopped before moscow (20miles) by the perma-frost…which had they invaded on time would not have been there. Germany made terible blunders…the fact that they went for a set-piece battle at stalingrad was dumb, as was the 1942 offensive on causasus oil fields in general. At kursk yet again due to massive delays to the attack the russians were able to prepare many defenses to stop it…which is what happened.

i think the soviet victory was more thanks to German blunders between summer 1942 and summer 1943.