The aberration of the defenseless transport

The whole point of having a transport with a def of 1 is so that it is not a sitting duck. It’s no battleship but at least it’s not totally easy pickings. I like being able to send out a transport out by itself and taking a risk with it. By the same token it makes your opponent think twice before he sends out some lone fighter or bomber to attack you. It forces them to think about losing precious aircraft to attack a transport rather than simply wiping otu a unit of opportunity with no risk.

@toblerone77:

The whole point of having a transport with a def of 1 is so that it is not a sitting duck. It’s no battleship but at least it’s not totally easy pickings. I like being able to send out a transport out by itself and taking a risk with it. By the same token it makes your opponent think twice before he sends out some lone fighter or bomber to attack you. It forces them to think about losing precious aircraft to attack a transport rather than simply wiping otu a unit of opportunity with no risk.

That’s why I suggest a 1@1 for 2 or more transports plus playing every hit on them.
If attacker throw only 1 Fg @3 against 3TPs, it will take at least 3 lucky rounds before all TPs get drowned. At each round, their is still odds at 1/6 (like a AA gun) to get this Fg down.
IMHO, this far risky that the attacker will put much more aircrafts to be sure not to have too many combat cycles with those TPs.

And as write it down, I was thinking about a house rule “Air Supremacy” which imply that an aircraft makes preemptive shot against naval only target with no air support. To counterweight the huge impact of 3 rounds with odds at 1/6 every time.

I eared only of Guadalcanal and Truk’s air raids against transports ships.
And they didn’t make the weight against fighters and TacB.
They were sitting ducks even with their on board AA guns.

@Uncrustable:

Why not give transports a defense of 1 but still must be taken as casualties last ?
Increase their cost to 8

I think most people like this. Perfectly reasonable.

@toblerone77:

@Uncrustable:

Why not give transports a defense of 1 but still must be taken as casualties last ?
Increase their cost to 8

I think most people like this. Perfectly reasonable.

Taken last is a must.
When are they allowed to defend @1?
Right at the beginning? Once their is no more warships?

But as soon as a pack of 3 or more transports get @1 each, it will hurt the attacker and changing the odds and how the game was set up initialy.

Example: 1 Fg @3 against 3 TPs @1.
Very little luck:
0.5 TP/rnd or 1 TP/2 rnds, so at the end of round 6, Transports are all drowned.
But, at the end of the second round, the fighter is already blasted.

I think it is not very historically accurate for a group of almost only transports to be as effective against aircrafts.

You must add with transports many escort ships which are included as the DD unit in OOB 1940.

According to my suggestion applied to the example:
Transports needs 6 rounds @1, so the only Fg unit is destroyed at the end of round 6.

*Transports start to defend themselves when they reach 14 IPCs value (2TPs C7).
TP A0 D0 M2 C7 Paired with another TP get a single 1@1 for all Transports group.
They can be hit twice and defend @1, same strength as a carrier on offense in 1942.2 (14 IPCs) .

Transports have aa guns on them. Historically transports have rammed into subs. Not sure on aa gun kills or other ramming.

@Baron:

Example: 1 Fgt@3 against 3 TT@1.
Very little luck:
2 rnds/TT at the end of round 6, they are all drowned.
At the end of the second round, the fighter is blasted.

I think it is not very historically accurate for a group of almost only transport to be as effective against aircrafts.

You must add with transports many escort ships which are included as DD in OOB 1940.

Baron this game isn’t all that historically accurate in and of itself. Sending out squadrons of fighters to sink transports isn’t either, bombers or tactical bombers would most likely have done this.
So what if a lone fighter can’t simply wipe out a bunch of transports? Is it fair or unbalanced that ONE unit can wipe out and theoretically destroy an INFINITE amount of transports because they are unescorted? You add DDs to those transports and they have to bring in more aircraft anyway. You could make the argument that destroyers are too powerful for thier price.

There have been a lot of rule changes in the name of “anti-stacking”, simply by adding the other units into the mix such as destroyers and cruisers has already done this. There was no need to take away defensive capability for transports.

@Cow:

Transports have aa guns on them. Historically transports have rammed into subs. Not sure on aa gun kills or other ramming.

This^ Again, a token defense of one isn’t a game breaker in this “realisitic” game.

@Cow:

Transports have aa guns on them. Historically transports have rammed into subs. Not sure on aa gun kills or other ramming.

That’s true but we must think each unit represents a vast group of similar things.

Their was ramming, but how many transport did this?
They have AA guns but what was their killing ratio, for these transports which were exposed to combat situations?

Anomalies and exceptions are not the model that makes the A&A system rules.

Defenseless Transports are an aberration, true ; individually, they were not all sitting ducks. But globally what was their role in WWII?

So what if a lone fighter can’t simply wipe out a bunch of transports? Is it fair or unbalanced that ONE unit can wipe out and theoretically destroy an INFINITE amount of transports because they are unescorted?

That’s the aberration portion.
You may play 1940 Global with Transport Def@1 8 IPCs.
But giving starting Transport Def@1 will have an impact.

I already thinking about a similar unit: TP+corvettes/frigates Def@1 for 9 IPCs.
And also keeping TP D@0 7IPCs.
And transport are taken as last casualties.

Just a way to upgrade starting Transport for 2 IPCs near IC or NB.
In this way, it follows the rule for navy unit: average is 2 IPCs for 1 point Att or Def.
Anyone can buy either Transport for 7 IPCs or TP lightly escorted at 9 IPCs.

It can simulate the progressive introduction of this small naval units during WWII specially to protect against Subs.

Probably no one will buy TP with no hit value after introducing TP D@1 C9…

@Baron:

@Cow:

Transports have aa guns on them. Historically transports have rammed into subs. Not sure on aa gun kills or other ramming.

That’s true but we must think each unit represents a vast group of similar things.

Their was ramming, but how many tranports did this?
They have AA guns but what was their killing ratio, for those transports which were exposed to combat situations?

Anomalies and exceptions are not the model that makes the A&A system rules.

Defenseless TT are an aberration, true ; individually, they were not all sitting ducks. But globally what was their role in WWII?

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Based on the game’s simulation of WWII era combat, using a D6 system, a defensive factor of 1 which is lowest defensive score is appropriate. The argument for no defense is still not valid, and the justification for removing it is as well. It is imposssible for one unit comprising of mostly fighters to destroy the equivalent of hundeds if not thousands of ships.

I’ll use the submarine argument against air vs. sub imbalance then. A transport should be able to retreat after one round of attack. The same way a sub can submerge. The TRN can be tipped on it’s side as if retreating. There were blockade runners in all kinds of wars.

Hell let’s just get rid of them and go for sea routes ala Risk! There were thousands of transports travelling alone all over the globe un-contested.

@toblerone77:

@Cow:

Transports have aa guns on them. Historically transports have rammed into subs. Not sure on aa gun kills or other ramming.

This^ Again, a token defense of one isn’t a game breaker in this “realisitic” game.

Actually, I think it will unbalance Global.
You will generates a small core fleet of warships and “sheep pack” of TPs
Maybe the warships will be destroyed but as soon as 5 or more TPs are rollings @1, it will become the infantry of the sea in an extensive group.

Because they will do both defending and transporting units.
Not a high rate but just enough to keep many Fgts and StrB at bay.

For all of you who say that a stack of transports would never be used as defense, you have clearly not played the original game…. If Germany only had say 4 planes left, the U.S. could stack 12 trannies all by themselves and be pretty darn safe.  Run your odds calcs if you don’t believe me…

Now, to say that in a d6 game system each trannie should defend at a one… well, then that means that a trannie has 1/4 the firepower as a Battleship, and 1/3 the firepower of a cruiser.  lol.

But, just to please the naysayers… I’ve come up with this extremely cool unit.  Not only can it transport an infantry and another unit, it also not only defends at a two, but also attacks at a two.  And… it only costs 15 IPC’s…

Seriously.

@toblerone77:

Based on the game’s simulation of WWII era combat, using a D6 system, a defensive factor of 1 which is lowest defensive score is appropriate.

The argument for no defense is still not valid, and the justification for removing it is as well. It is impossible for one unit comprising of mostly fighters to destroy the equivalent of hundeds if not thousands of ships.

I’ll use the submarine argument against air vs. sub imbalance then. A transport should be able to retreat after one round of attack. The same way a sub can submerge. The TRN can be tipped on it’s side as if retreating. There were blockade runners in all kinds of wars.

Hell let’s just get rid of them and go for sea routes ala Risk! There were thousands of transports travelling alone all over the globe un-contested.

It is possible to get a lower rate that 1 unit @1: 1/6 per unit.
AA guns get 3@1 once.
I suggested: 2 and more TPs get only 1D@1 but endure as many hits as they are.

A fleeing tactics can be imagine:
Philip Schwartzer from Gamers Paradise suggested that two or more TPs can be attack by 2@4 for each Sub and BB.

For a single round, you can double dice for every attacking units and let the remaining TPs as survivors: 1Fg @3 get 2@3/ 1StrB get 2@4, etc.

@Baron:

@toblerone77:

@Cow:

Transports have aa guns on them. Historically transports have rammed into subs. Not sure on aa gun kills or other ramming.

This^ Again, a token defense of one isn’t a game breaker in this “realisitic” game.

Actually, I think it will unbalance Global.
You will generates a small core fleet of warships and “sheep pack” of TT.
Maybe the warships will be destroyed but as soon as 5 or more TT are rollings @1, it will become the infantry of the sea in an extensive group.

Because they will do both defending and transporting units.
Not a high rate but just enough to keep many Fgts and StrB at bay.

How would that be when transports CANNOT attack offensively? The opposition could just as easily build destroyers to counter them.

How effective is AA on a one to one basis? It seems to me you heavily ephasize on fighter/aircraft attacks against transports which is great for the player deploying the aircraft. They get to spend less and have no risk against transports if unescorted.

Unless you build at least two destroyers per transport it’s an easy victory for one plane because you essentially knock out a transport, it’s cargo and it’s destroyer and if you lose even a bomber it’s the same risk attacking lone infantry except you wipe out a whole lot more oft the enemies IPCs. Especially for the Luftwaffe which is why players who play as Germany a lot love this ruling.

It really doesn’t matter what I think anyway. I doubt Larry Harris is reading this board and I doubt anything said here will change anything else within the game played by the community as a whole.

I still maintain that transports should have a defense and those of us here who agree will simply house rule it in our home games.

@DizzKneeLand33:

For all of you who say that a stack of transports would never be used as defense, you have clearly not played the original game…. If Germany only had say 4 planes left, the U.S. could stack 12 trannies all by themselves and be pretty darn safe.�  Run your odds calcs if you don’t believe me…

Now, to say that in a d6 game system each trannie should defend at a one… well, then that means that a trannie has 1/4 the firepower as a Battleship, and 1/3 the firepower of a cruiser.�  lol.

But, just to please the naysayers… I’ve come up with this extremely cool unit.�  Not only can it transport an infantry and another unit, it also not only defends at a two, but also attacks at a two.�  And… it only costs 15 IPC’s…

Seriously.

Actually yes I played Classic all the time. so what stops destroyer stacking? They cost 1 more IPC than a transport and have half the firepower of your battleship and two thirds the power of a cruiser. BTW in AAP01 the Japanese DDs could carry INFand only cost 12. Seriously look it up.

@bongaroo:

I hated the way transports worked in 2nd edition. �Most fleets were a bunch of transports with only a couple of carriers with planes and maybe a battleship. �The introduction of cruisers, destroyers, and multi hit capital ships makes a lot more sense.

You keep talking about how everything has risk, well you took the risk of sending an undefended transport. �

-edit-

Yes, those battleships or other fighting ships better not just watch the transports get creamed when they could defend them.� What kind of heartless captain would let practically defenseless ships get slaughtered nearby?�

Anyone eared about Leyte’s Golf Naval Battle?
Let’s see it in french:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WrqGsOUojKY
Or in english:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pLRteCJaA_Q

IJN BBs and many CAs were against some DD and escorts carriers, and they were protecting all marines transports. An Epic Battle!

There were not many units, some of us could see them as integrated to the transport unit.

But I prefer to create a specific unit like:
Escort carrier A0/1 D1 M2 Cost 10 Carry 1 Fgt and is ASW.

@toblerone77:

How would that be when transports CANNOT attack offensively? The opposition could just as easily build destroyers to counter them.

How effective is AA on a one to one basis? It seems to me you heavily emphasize on fighter/aircraft attacks against transports which is great for the player deploying the aircraft. They get to spend less and have no risk against transports if unescorted.

Unless you build at least two destroyers per transport it’s an easy victory for one plane because you essentially knock out a transport, it’s cargo and it’s destroyer and if you lose even a bomber it’s the same risk attacking lone infantry except you wipe out a whole lot more of the enemies IPCs. Especially for the Luftwaffe which is why players who play as Germany a lot love this ruling.

It really doesn’t matter what I think anyway. I doubt Larry Harris is reading this board and I doubt anything said here will change anything else within the game played by the community as a whole.

I still maintain that transports should have a defense and those of us here who agree will simply house rule it in our home games.

You don’t need much offensive navy with airplanes (UK/USA).

I imagine almost Germany vs UK&USA.

Usually, Germany is not able to put many naval units and must use (more versatile) aircrafts  instead of DDs and Subs but have to pay the price.
In 1940, you need a defensive core of CV+2Fgt+1DD to protect transports.
Even when Germany could destroy those warships, it will face many TT x@1 and will pay the price of replacing lost needed Fgt (10 vs 8 IPCs) and trying to put enough ground units to repel USSR.

At last, it will come a time, it won’t be able to put naval units and will keep solely Fgt and Inf to create fortress Europe.

I agree Transport should have defense. And must be chosen last.
We disagree on the value:  @1/each unit vs @1 a whole group 2+ of TPs at 7 IPCs
and the cost: 7+1=8 IPCs vs 7+2 = 9 IPCs for a similar unit as you suggest.

And I may even introduce a fleeing tactics for isolated Transport against attacking units.

My reason of disagreement: the risk of unbalancing the game in favor of Allies.

Maybe they are not very compelling arguments.
For now, I can just propose other means to solve the problems expose in this thread.

Forums are a place for exploration, creative and critical thinking about different aspects of A&A. Larry is a reference (not a dictator) and this does not exclude to think outside the box (like you were trying to do).

Everyone pick and try what he sees fit most for his players and style of game.
According to how the points are exposed, it could help people choosing what they prefer.
From my point of view, the more there is to pick, the better.

Hmm.  I have a hard time finding an instance in WWII where a dozen or more transports destroyed 100 or more aircraft (1 Transport vs. 1 Fighter).  Sure, there are examples of transport ramming submarines or killing a few aircraft- but this is a strategic level game not a tactical one.

Escort carriers are part of the Aircraft Carrier unit, not part of Transports/Destroyers etc.

I will say it again- escort ships have been decoupled from transports in the form of destroyers.  It makes you defend your transports!

Instead of having transports rolling at a 1 and unbalancing the game I would get behind the thought of a transport that survives the opening attack to be able to retreat to a nearby sea zone- If there were ten transports undefended (extremely unlikely) attacked by a lone fighter, that fighter (represented by 100 or more actual fighters) would not be able to track down the 100 or more transports and sink them all.

So, with retreating transports the attacker would have to commit more assets to deal some damage…

I see a lot of reactions here that destroyers are overpowered or defending transports will unbalance the naval game. The problem I see is that the current naval game is inherently unbalanced in favor of the attacker.
The submarine, fighter and bomber are all extremely efficient at sinking boats that cost more than they do. Compare this to land units, where the most efficient unit is twice as good at defending as it is at attacking. To add insult to injury, once your expensive warships have been sunk by the cheap attackers, he can then kill your expensive transport fleet for no cost at all.
The remaining airplanes can even be used with decent efficiency in land battles afterwards. Having transports that can defend helps shift this balance back so the defender has a chance again.