Military History's Best Loser

@Last:

@MrMalachiCrunch:

I believe Hannibal spent 10 years in Italy with no “ocean” between his army and that of Rome.

Carthage was indeed across the ocean and that is from where the attack originated from sans his European allies. Most of Frances big battles were not far from its borders excluding of course the Africa campaign and the Moscow defeat.

Quite the feat shipping Elephants to Europe. Quite the feat surviving 10 years an ocean away from home in hostile territory. Transportation was a bit more challenging in Hannibal’s time compared to Napoleon

I believe Hannibal’s attack on Rome initiated from his base in Spain. There was no “ocean” between his army and Rome. Granted he crossed the alps but paid a heavy price in doing so.

@ABWorsham:

I got to side with Hannibal. Napoleon was fighting with the support of his country and fought against a loosely unified Europe. Hannibal fought against the might of the Roman Republic.

Initially Hannibal had the support of Carthage and more importantly its Spanish colony. He only lost support when he proved he could not bring the war to a favorable conclusion.

Perhaps, the support given to Hannibal by a number of Italian cities during his 10 year stay shows the Roman Republic was also loosely unified.

Last Jack,

do you have a source for any of your bolded and underlined claims above?

Everything I’ve read basically contradicts them…

As for the last 4 pages of debate - for the record this is what’s being debated:

Quite the feat shipping Elephants to Europe (TRUE). Quite the feat surviving 10 years a sea ocean away from home in hostile territory (MOSTLY TRUE). Transportation was a bit more challenging in Hannibal’s time compared to Napoleon (FACT)

What’s the problem here?

I make no bold claims. Hannibal Marched into Italy. I think the green line proves it.

Last Jack
You made the following entirely false claims:

1. The Roman Republic was also loosely unified.

2. Initially Hannibal had the support of Carthage and more importantly its Spanish colony. He only lost support when he proved he could not bring the war to a favorable conclusion.

The attack from Suguntum to Itlay was overland.  However, for carthage, the war was -overseas-.  Hence Hannibals consistent requests for reinforcements from home (Overseas).  Since Hannibal himself stated the conflict was Overseas, I don’t see why you want to contradict him?  I sure wouldn’t.

I just want to contradict you

In a straight line, spain is arguably “across the sea” from Rome. Wink  There are certainly a few mountain ranges in the way…

AND FAILING TAG TEAM MEMBER ENTERS…AS PREDICTED.

The war began from Spain, mobilized from Spain, into the alps and into Rome. Not across the sea.  Must be ignorance day today.

Hmmm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Saguntum

So in 219 Hannibal lead Carthage to victory in Spain… From “across the sea”, against Rome’s allies.

Quote
The Saguntines turned to Rome for aid, but none was sent. In 218 BC after enduring eight months of siege the Saguntines’ last defences were finally overrun. This marked the beginning of the Second Punic War. Hannibal now had a base from which he could supply his forces with food and extra troops.

That was in SPAIN, not across the sea. Get it right. Jesus…

After assaulting Saguntum, Hannibal surprised the Romans in 218 BC by leading the Iberians and three dozen elephants through the Alps. Although Hannibal surprised the Romans and thoroughly beat them on the battlefields of Italy, he lost his only siege engines and most of his elephants to the cold temperatures and icy mountain paths. In the end it allowed him to defeat the Romans in the field, but not in the strategically crucial city of Rome itself, thus making him unable to win the war.

And WHAT’S THIS?!?!?!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punic_Wars

Quote
Rome took countermeasures against Hannibal’s home base in Africa by sea command and stopped the flow of supplies.

The Romans -starved- Hannibal’s army for 15 years by sea primarily, resulting in his defeat.  The whole campaign is outlined… wow…

The period you refer too is 264BC to 141BC, and the starving was in the third punic war, which we are NOT TALKING ABOUT. So you really need to enter a thread where you have no clue about what is being discussed and so eager to prop up another Canadian who knows probably a bit more than you and your 5 minute internet education about the Punic wars.

EVEN MORE EVIDENCE

Quote
More importantly, Hannibal never successfully received any significant reinforcements from Carthage. Despite his many pleas, Carthage only ever sent reinforcements successfully to Hispania. This lack of reinforcements prevented Hannibal from decisively ending the conflict by conquering Rome through force of arms

So Mal was right… the fact that hannibal couldn’t get the reinforcements he needed, FOR A CONFLICT OVERSEAS, led to his defeat.

Wrong again. The 100 men came from the Iberian region, the Elephants (37) were taken by boat, but the campaign was launched from Spain, not from across the sea to Italy.

That is where you get the elephants coming into the alps, they didn’t take a boat ride and landed like Anzio. Please don’t use some facts our of context you looked up in 1 minute for internet discussions, actually go read some books and gain a complete understanding about this period before commenting. It just makes you look silly.

Guess it wasn’t an entirely overland conflict as the cackling pontiff’s around here originally suggested.

But it was, and since you know nothing- read a book.

I guess you cant see the lines from SPAIN, which is part of the Carthage Empire?

Thats were the attack force came from and entered the Alps with the 37 elephants and 100,000 men in case you wondered.

GARGANTUA

1. I like how you left out the PERHAPS when I stated the Roman Republic was also loosely unified. Very convenient of you to do so. But anyway there is this

Hannibal’s perilous march brought him into the Roman territory and frustrated the attempts of the enemy to fight out the main issue on foreign ground. His sudden appearance among the Gauls of the Po Valley, moreover, enabled him to detach those tribes from their new allegiance to the Romans before the latter could take steps to check the rebellion

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hannibal

2. Hannibal MARCHED into Italy with a CARTHAGINIAN army. Does that not show support?

He did not receive reinforcements from Carthage. Maybe the Carthaginian Senate didn’t think he could win?

As for the last 4 pages of debate - for the record this is what’s being debated:
Quote
Quite the feat shipping Elephants to Europe (TRUE). Quite the feat surviving 10 years a sea ocean away from home in hostile territory (MOSTLY TRUE). Transportation was a bit more challenging in Hannibal’s time compared to Napoleon (FACT)

What’s the problem here?

The problem is you don’t understand what the argument is, and make up whatever you think you can make sense from.

The war was conducted from the European part of Carthage in Iberia, into Rome. Not a war fought between the “ocean” ( using Crunch’s language). The war was from land to land.

You look like and Idiot IL. Congratulations.

In your words:

and the starving was in the third punic war, which we are NOT TALKING ABOUT.

In histories words:

The Roman army under Quintus Fabius Maximus intentionally deprived Hannibal of open battle, while making it difficult for Hannibal to forage for supplies

Last Gargantua:
You made the following entirely false claims:

1. Most everything you posted

2. Not including the map which sinks you.

The attack from Suguntum to Itlay was overland.  However, for carthage, the war was -overseas-.  Hence Hannibals consistent requests for reinforcements from home (Overseas).  Since Hannibal himself stated the conflict was Overseas, I don’t see why you want to contradict him?  I sure wouldn’t.

You got it wrong or misleading again…

The first and second punic wars were fought from Spain into Italy.

The assault on Saguntum ( not Suguntum like you write) predated the second Punic War. Show me at least one source that has the Carthage army and Hannibal landing by sea into Italy…It didn’t happen and the war was not across the sea.

Hannibal wasn’t around in 141 BC; and they starved his army IN EUROPE for 15 years.

Typo, meant 146. But you still know nothing and failed at everything you posted.

Does it feel good?

What about this Failed Statement of yours?

Imperious Loudmouth SAYS: and the starving was in the third punic war, which we are NOT TALKING ABOUT.

Hey IL, NEWSFLASH Hannibal wasn’t alive during the third punic war, and the romans STARVED his army during the second.

• Realizing that Hannibal’s army was outrunning its supply lines quickly, Rome took countermeasures against Hannibal’s home base in Africa by sea command and stopped the flow of supplies.
• The Roman army under Quintus Fabius Maximus intentionally deprived Hannibal of open battle, while making it difficult for Hannibal to forage for supplies

1. Admit the truth, you’re wrong.

2. Conceed!

3. You’re surrounded!

4. You just lost your battle of ZAMA! OVER THE NET

Pwnd. Your ineptitude triggered your spam.

You look like and Idiot IL. Congratulations.

Nice grammar!

In your words:
Quote
and the starving was in the third punic war, which we are NOT TALKING ABOUT.

In histories words:

Quote
The Roman army under Quintus Fabius Maximus intentionally deprived Hannibal of open battle, while making it difficult for Hannibal to forage for supplies

Now you shift to another event? In the third Punic war the capital of Carthage was put into protracted siege. This is the only time where the fight was across the sea because the invasion force traveled entirely by the Mediterranean. However, we are not talking about this.

@Imperious:

You look like and Idiot IL. Congratulations.

Nice grammar!

In your words:
Quote
and the starving was in the third punic war, which we are NOT TALKING ABOUT.

In histories words:

Quote
The Roman army under Quintus Fabius Maximus intentionally deprived Hannibal of open battle, while making it difficult for Hannibal to forage for supplies

Now you shift to another event? In the third Punic war the capital of Carthage was put into protracted siege. This is the only time where the fight was across the sea because the invasion force traveled entirely by the Mediterranean. However, we are not talking about this.

THE BATTLE OF ZAMA WAS ACROSS THE SEA FROM ROME. DURING THE SECOND PUNIC WAR.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Zama

I don’t know how much clearer I can point that out…

Wrong x 2

What about this Failed Statement of yours?

Quote
Imperious Loudmouth SAYS: and the starving was in the third punic war, which we are NOT TALKING ABOUT.

Hey IL, NEWSFLASH Hannibal wasn’t alive during the third punic war, and the romans STARVED his army during the second.

Newsflash: i didn’t say he was alive or not, unless you are so dumb as to think Hannibal changed his name to the " third Punic war"?

• Realizing that Hannibal’s army was outrunning its supply lines quickly, Rome took countermeasures against Hannibal’s home base in Africa by sea command and stopped the flow of supplies.
• The Roman army under Quintus Fabius Maximus intentionally deprived Hannibal of open battle, while making it difficult for Hannibal to forage for supplies

The war was from Spain with an army raised in Spain. You failed again to learn.

1. Admit the truth, you’re wrong.

2. Conceed! �

3. You’re surrounded!

4. You just lost your battle of ZAMA! OVER THE NET

Pwnd. � Your ineptitude triggered your spam.

well spoken 13 year old kid who has no clue and still posts like a child.

For a guy who makes maps for a living, you should know how to read one.

You see the LEGEND?  Where it says MAJOR BATTLES.

Now look at ZAMA in AFRICA. Across the sea from Italy.  And what do you see?  A MAJOR BATTLE across the Sea….

THE BATTLE OF ZAMA WAS ACROSS THE SEA FROM ROME. DURING THE SECOND PUNIC WAR.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Zama

I don’t know how much clearer I can point that out…

Wrong x 2

LOL…… fought at the end of the 2nd Punic war. It doesn’t change the fact that the war was over land.

The Second Punic War (218 BC � 201 BC) is most remembered for the Carthaginian Hannibal’s crossing of the Alps. His army invaded Italy from the north and resoundingly defeated the Roman army in several battles, but never achieved the ultimate goal of causing a political break between Rome and its allies.

IL Per your statements. Do you actually believe the Battle of Zama never happend?

In the third Punic war the capital of Carthage was put into protracted siege. This is the only time where the fight was across the sea because the invasion force traveled entirely by the Mediterranean.

Because you say that the only battle -across the sea- occurred during the third punic war?

History tells a much different story than your “American” version of events.