AA Guns

@Cmdr:

You typed that as I was typing, right? lol.

3 AA Guns = 3 AA Gun shots max even if there are 50 fighters.� **However, it’s only 1 or 2 shots if there are only 1 or 2 planes attacking.**� This is per round, so as planes are shot out of the air, the number of AA Gun shots are reduced to compensate.

Ok
Do you keep the preemptive strike every round? Or only on the first?

Because, if you keep it every round it has much impact and it is even more powerful vs OOB.
As I said, on your Moscow 10 rnds scenario it is 3.5 times killer than OOB.
7 planes down out of 12 vs 2 planes down on the first round.
6 IPCs is a must (at least).

Sorry to disappoint you,  :wink:
but if I have to choose between your HR and Uncrustable HR.
I prefer Uncrustable because it is still OOB in your Moscow scenario.
It is a far less Overpowered AAA.

Yes, in my opinion a house rule for AA Guns would be to treat them like submarines.  If they hit something it’s dead before it can return fire.

So, if you had 12 aircraft attacking 3 guns:

Round 1:  3 AA Gun shots
Round 2:  3 AA Gun shots
Round 3:  3 AA Gun shots
…
Because there are at least 3 attacking aircraft and you have 3 AA Guns.

If there is 1 aircraft attacking 7 AA Guns:
Round 1: 1 AA Gun shot
Round 2: 1 AA Gun shot
…
Until the plane is destroyed or all AA Guns are destroyed.

@Uncrustable:

Ok well you are going the wrong direction IMO
AAA needs to be more effective not less

I just think my idea is better because it changes less and slightly increases AAA effectiveness

Your idea may be feasible if you were to give 1 shot to each AAA no matter how many fighters. And what I mean is if there are 3 AAA and 2 fighters you roll 3 dice
And would also have to look at a price reduction

But why not just keep all the current OOB rules but let AAA roll a defense dice during normal combat same as all other units. You could even let AAA attack on a 1 (would attack same as an unsupported infantry) AAA only get the 3 preemptive shots at planes on defense

It also doesn’t kill anymore planes than current OOB rules, this is what I like most about it

AAA needs to be more effective not less
Are you kidding? Even without the first round against 3 planes/AAA.
Cmdr Jen Option 3 It is still very effective.

Option 3:
Each AAA gun would get up to 1 shot/1 plane (whichever is less)  every round.

After a 10 round battle for Moscow, that’s 4 AA Guns at 12 planes:

4 Shots round 1, 1 hit on average (rounding up)   4/0   1 plane destroyed
4 Shots round 2, no hit to keep the average:        8/6
4 Shots round 3, 1 hit on average (rounding up)  12/6  1 plane destroyed
4 Shots round 4, 1 hit on average (rounding up)  16/12 1 plane destroyed
4 Shots round 5, no hit to keep the average:       20/18
4 Shots round 6, 1 hit on average                      24/18 1 plane destroyed
4 Shots round 7, 1 hit on average (rounding up)  28/24 1 plane destroyed
4 Shots round 8, no hit to keep the average:       32/30
4 Shots round 9, 1 hit on average (rounding up)  36/30 1 plane destroyed
4 Shots round 10, 1 hit on average (rounding up) 40/36 1 plane destroyed

Option 3 results:
Get 3.5 times regular casualities =  7 planes will be destroyed on average but 5 planes will still be on the battlefield.

It is less effective only when the  battle last for 2 or 1 round.

Think about a tactical straffing with the 12 planes of this Moscow scenario for a single round.
4AAA OOB rules get 12@1 on each plane.
Option 3, only 4@1 on each plane.

Yer rule, I didn’t say you had to take mine. :P

@Cmdr:

Yer rule, I didn’t say you had to take mine. :P

If I was playing on your board game with a Larry’s regular set up,  I would surely pledge for the opening round preemptive shot only.
Just to somewhat reduce the OP effect of your AAA HR.

Your prefered choice of option 3 is a simpler rule but I think Larry didn’t introduce it while changing AAgun to AAAgun because of this unbalancing effect on planes.

To counterweight it, you had to increase the cost of AAA and lower the cost of plane for taking in account the higher rates of casualities amongst them.

Don’t you think?

It is my opinion that the change to AA Guns was in an effort to prevent an early Sea Lion being possible.  Honestly, I feel that Larry may have had to change his shorts the first time the round 2 Sea Lion was used against him in a game and may have over compensated a bit.

That’s just my opinion, I have no facts to support it, no facts to deny it either.  He’s never said to me, and I did ask!  I asked a LOT!  Cause at the time he was also a little worried that my KJF was unstoppable (Alpha 2) and by unstoppable, I mean no one on the boards could stop me from successfully containing Japan to a mere smattering of islands - most of which were worth 0 IPC.  It was, of course, a race from that point on to stop Germany from winning the game…

What is the difference between Alpha 2 and Alpha 3?

@Cmdr:

It is my opinion that the change to AA Guns was in an effort to prevent an early Sea Lion being possible.  Honestly, I feel that Larry may have had to change his shorts the first time the round 2 Sea Lion was used against him in a game and may have over compensated a bit. :-D

That’s just my opinion, I have no facts to support it, no facts to deny it either.  He’s never said to me, and I did ask!  I asked a LOT!  Cause at the time he was also a little worried that my KJF was unstoppable (Alpha 2) and by unstoppable, I mean no one on the boards could stop me from successfully containing Japan to a mere smattering of islands - most of which were worth 0 IPC.  It was, of course, a race from that point on to stop Germany from winning the game…

Maybe he can have done it for marketing reasons: creating new sculpts to sell more 2nd edition of the recent (1942/1940) games.

What did you ask him about AAA specifically?

@Baron:

What is the difference between Alpha 2 and Alpha 3?

Alpha 2 AA Guns were the same as any other Axis and Allies game.  They were not destroyed, they could be captured, they got 1 shot at each attacking plane in the first round and then no shots from then on, etc.
Alpha 3 they became valid targets and were destroyed before being captured, but they got 3 shots at attacking planes, each, as long as there were enough planes to shoot at.

Basically, it all revolved around Sea Lion, I think.  I mean, at the time of the change there was a lot of crying and moaning about how easy Sea Lion was and how horrible it was (Despite the fact that if you kept playing, odds were really good you could beat the Germans even if they HAD London, just cause they were so weak from using all their money on transports one round and losing all those ground troops and having to rebuild them, etc.)  Honestly, Sea Lion was a major calculation in my KJF strategy.  I assumed Germany was going to get creamed by the British but take England and thus, the only real threat on the board was going to be Japan so I devised a way to use India, Australia and America to beat the snot out of the Japanese (since America entered the war when London fell.)

It had the desired effect, IMHO, Germany was weak and still gathering herself while Russia built up against her, Japan was effectively required to do something about the wave of American bodies being thrown at it allowing the Chinese and Russians to breathe a little, and eventually, Russia could start taking any enemy territory on the board or German/Italian territory and got amazing income.  (There was even strategies about having Russians get on little boats for territories like Pauline for 3 IPC cause all those Japanese islands worth 0 for everyone else, were worth 3 IPC for Russia) and it got REALLY ridiculous.

At one time we had the Russians with 14x 3 IPC NOs for territories around the board, most of which couldn’t be taken by the Axis even if they wanted too since they had no navy to stop them.  That’s 42 IPC a round, btw, which is a HUGE benefit and why the Russian NOs were rewritten to exclude things like the Carolines, Pauline, Crete, Erie, etc… lol

Very interesting!
Thanks for taking time to write it down. :-)

I’ll ask again….

WHEN is this getting moved to the House Rules thread??

That, or please move my “France starting first” thread back here.  Otherwise, the double standard is really beginning to irritate me…

@DizzKneeLand33:

I’ll ask again….

WHEN is this getting moved to the House Rules thread??

That, or please move my “France starting first” thread back here.  Otherwise, the double standard is really beginning to irritate me…

I’m backing you.
Your tread was meant for 1940 Global only, even if you propose a slight change in it.

This one on AAA guns and the other about TTs have to go into House Rules.
It has a wider scope.
I suppose it is just a question of time for this one.

@Uncrustable:

What’s wrong with my idea?

AAA are treated as normal unit during normal combat. Hitting on a 1.
They still get the 3 preemptive rolls at planes
This follows choose your own casualties

This is very self explainatory IMO

So once a battle begins (after the preemptive 3 AA dice), AAA roll no differently than, say an infantry. Except obviously the AAA hits only on a 1

Does not matter if there are planes or not

@Uncrustable
Have you considered this?
I find it much more consistent as a fully transformed AAA.

AAA becomes a uniformized ground unit as A1D1M1C5+1=C6  AAA first strike on opening fire phase against 1 plane only.
This idea imply AAA capacity on opening rnd for both attack and defense.
Maybe against 3 planes @1 in defense and against 1 single plane @1 on offense for the opening round of fire instead?

@Baron:

@Uncrustable:

What’s wrong with my idea?

AAA are treated as normal unit during normal combat. Hitting on a 1.
They still get the 3 preemptive rolls at planes
This follows choose your own casualties

This is very self explainatory IMO

So once a battle begins (after the preemptive 3 AA dice), AAA roll no differently than, say an infantry. Except obviously the AAA hits only on a 1

Does not matter if there are planes or not

@Uncrustable
Have you considered this?
I find it much more consistent as a fully transformed AAA.

AAA becomes a uniformized ground unit as A1D1M1C5+1=C6  AAA first strike on opening fire phase against 1 plane only.
This idea imply AAA capacity on opening rnd for both attack and defense.
Maybe against 3 planes @1 in defense and against 1 single plane @1 on offense for the opening round of fire instead?

AAA
Cost: 6
Move: 1
Attack: 1
Defense: 1
Special ability: On defense only, roll one dice for each attacking plane OR 3 dice for each defending AAA whichever is less (no change from OOB)

The preemptive AA should be on defense only, for both common sense/historical purposes and for balance.
It seems absurd to me that an attacking AA division would be able to sneak in and set up an intricate network of AA defense in hostile territory and then proceed to shoot planes out of the sky! lol
Keep in mind, just because it doesn’t get preemptive AA rolls doesn’t mean it cannot shoot down planes, its just now ‘choose your own casualties’

Yes and i like it very much.
It actually makes the game a tad simpler in my opinion (AAA is a normal unit with a special ability rather than a special unit with a whole page of unique rules)
It does increase the effectiveness of AAA (but not by too much)

Its special ability is 3 AA rolls on defense

Keep in mind, just because it doesn’t get preemptive AA rolls doesn’t mean it cannot shoot down planes, its just now ‘choose your own casualties’

@Uncrustable:

Its special ability is 3 AA rolls on defense

Keep in mind, just because it doesn’t get preemptive AA rolls doesn’t mean it cannot shoot down planes, its just now ‘choose your own casualties’

In this manner, it will be a completly consistent AAA ground unit.
Keeping up the same killing ratio vs plane: a 1 time @1 either offense or defense.
But still much better on defense: first strike +2 additionnals planes can be targeted,
(as OOB rule specified).

The AAA standard miniature is figured by AA gun, let it be it offense and defense.
It will make sense even for new players.

The preemptive AA should be on defense only, for both common sense/historical purposes and for balance.
It seems absurd to me that an attacking AA division would be able to sneak in and set up an intricate network of AA defense in hostile territory and then proceed to shoot planes out of the sky! lol
Keep in mind, just because it doesn’t get preemptive AA rolls doesn’t mean it cannot shoot down planes, its just now ‘choose your own casualties’

You had reason about preemptive strike.
But why not give them 1 AAA shot@1 on 1 single plane (if any) on the opening round of fire?

This AAA unit will still be much better on defense (up to 3 planes/ preemptive) than attack (1 single plane, no first strike) but somewhat keep is special ability (antiaircraft).

We can think about what it implies on a strategical and tactical level to bring some AAA to get this shot on attack.

AAA will be appealling against large number of defensive aircrafts in a territory but it would be a poor strategy to buy too many of them (same cost as tank) just to get 1 single shot on 1 plane.
As always one A&A principle will prevail: mixed group of units always a better choice.

We can rationalize about AAA unit on offense:
The defender has some large part of his territory invaded by the attacker to create a line of communication going to the front line: an outward bulge, a salient.
To destroyed those supply lines, defending planes are good at it, hence the @4.
Bringing AAA division provide more AA platform to protect this supply lines.
So AAA unit still on attack but protecting attacking unit against squadrons of planes of the defender.

In this manner, it will be a completly consistent AAA ground unit.
Keeping up the same killing ratio vs plane: a 1 time @1 either offense or defense.
But still much better on defense: first strike +2 additionnals planes can be targeted.
as OOB rule specified

To everyone,
what do you think could happen in the overall Global, if any attacking unit can bring AAA as regular unit @1, but on his first round can make a specific @1 attack on 1 defending plane (if present)?

Is this a revolution, which create real unbalancing situation, or just some interesting tactical and strategical situation?

AAA rolling AA dice on offense is too much Baron

Read this again I don’t think you it has sunk in yet

Keep in mind, just because it doesn’t get preemptive AA rolls doesn’t mean it cannot shoot down planes, its just now ‘choose your own casualties’

It changes the game way too much for starters, now you can lose planes to attacking AAA lol
It would very possibly break the game

I don’t see any advantages to it while I can pick out a lot of negatives