AA Guns

@Cmdr:

Baron,

I wouldn’t make it hit the plane means it retreats.  Hit the plane means the plane was HIT.  However, you can pull off a Memphis Belle if the owner of the plane can roll a 1 on the die.

It’s sort of a consolation prize for having 48 aa gun shots taken at your plane because it was in a LONG battle.  Okay, okay, maybe not 48 shots at that plane, but you know some of these battles for capitols can easily top 12 rounds of combat and if that AA Gun is there the whole time, or even most of the time, that’s 11 rolls at 1 on a 1d6 and the odds are REALLY good that at least ONE of those 11 shots are going to hit your plane.

From your example, we can tell that an AAA which can be used as a regular unit defending @1 is not so unbalancing. Maybe there is 3 or 4 AAA at most on a capitol. Adding 3 or 4 @1, is not a major outbreak.

What about the regular AAA division A1D1M1 AAA preemptive attack vs 3 planes on first round promoted by Uncrustable? What is your opinion?
Can it be balanced at 5 IPCs?
Does it still requires an increase to 6 IPCs?

Should it becomes a uniformized ground unit as A1D1M1C5 AAA first strike on opening fire phase against 1 plane only?

@Cmdr:

Baron,

I wouldn’t make it hit the plane means it retreats.  Hit the plane means the plane was HIT.  However, you can pull off a Memphis Belle if the owner of the plane can roll a 1 on the die.

It’s sort of a consolation prize for having 48 aa gun shots taken at your plane because it was in a LONG battle.  Okay, okay, maybe not 48 shots at that plane, but you know some of these battles for capitols can easily top 12 rounds of combat and if that AA Gun is there the whole time, or even most of the time, that’s 11 rolls at 1 on a 1d6 and the odds are REALLY good that at least ONE of those 11 shots are going to hit your plane.

What is your evaluation of a AAA unit which fire at 1 out of 18 against 3 planes every round?

In the context of a 12 rounds of battle situation over a capitol city, if someone decides to keep AAA as long as possible during this long battle?

Is it still too unbalancing because it can keep 1 single unit 12 firing at a 1/18 which is 4 times more than a single 1/6 shot ?

@Baron:

@Cmdr:

Baron,

I wouldn’t make it hit the plane means it retreats.  Hit the plane means the plane was HIT.  However, you can pull off a Memphis Belle if the owner of the plane can roll a 1 on the die.

It’s sort of a consolation prize for having 48 aa gun shots taken at your plane because it was in a LONG battle.  Okay, okay, maybe not 48 shots at that plane, but you know some of these battles for capitols can easily top 12 rounds of combat and if that AA Gun is there the whole time, or even most of the time, that’s 11 rolls at 1 on a 1d6 and the odds are REALLY good that at least ONE of those 11 shots are going to hit your plane.

What is your evaluation of a AAA unit which fire at 1 out of 18 against 3 planes every round?

In the context of a 12 rounds of battle situation over a capitol city, if someone decides to keep AAA as long as possible during this long battle?

Is it still too unbalancing because it can keep 1 single unit 12 firing at a 1/18 which is 4 times more than a single 1/6 shot ?

If it is the case, then it means that an ad hoc rule need to be produce to limit the number of rolls against planes.

The OOB rule on AAA fix it to 1 single shot at 1 out 6 odds against every plane providing we have enough AAA.

This odds against plane in itself is already too high in an historical accuracy point of view.
But it is the lowest possible rate in a single D6 system.

You if accept the introduction of a system base on 2D6 successive rolls we can reach odds from 1/36 to 5/36 and even higher.

To keep balance, do we need to  fix a limited number of defensive rolls against 1 single plane?

If 1 AA Gun got 1 Shot per round in opening fire, as long as there existed at least 1 attacking plane, then there would be no need to have the 1/6 chance of the plane surviving being shot.

What I read, and I may have misread, was that each gun would get up to 3 shots per round.  After a 10 round battle for Moscow, that’s 4 AA Guns at 12 planes (just using starting units, assuming no planes lost by Germany or if they were, they were rebuilt) so that’s:

12 Shots round 1, 2 hits on average
10 Shots round 2, 2 hits on average (rounding up)
8 Shots round 3, 1 hit on average (rounding down)
7 Shots round 4, 1 hit on average (rounding down)
6 Shots round 5, 1 hit on average
5 Shots round 6, 1 hit on average (rounding up)
4 Shots round 7, 1 hit on average (rounding up)
3 Shots round 8, No hits on average (rounding down)
3 Shots round 9, 1 hit on average (rounding up)
2 Shots round 10, no hits on average.

So you went from getting 2 hits on average with the current rules, to 10 hits on average with the proposed rules.  That’s a SIGNIFICANT increase!  It’s way more than is necessary to turn the tide of battle in Russia, and Germany has to hope to crush Russia pretty darn quick to win the game as it is now.  (And hellz yes, I am keeping all four of those guns operational until it comes down to trading armored units or the number of attacking planes has been decimated to the point it’s not worth keeping them alive anymore!)

Thank you for your answer, it helps a lot to see more clearly where this goes.
Your example fit whith no option on the table but it is a reference if AAA were all outs.

I borrow your post to insert it in my proposition:
@Cmdr:

If 1 AA Gun got 1 Shot per round in opening fire, as long as there existed at least 1 attacking plane, then there would be no need to have the 1/6 chance of the plane surviving being shot.

What I read, and I may have misread, was that each gun would get up to 3 shots per round.  After a 10 round battle for Moscow, that’s 4 AA Guns at 12 planes (just using starting units, assuming no planes lost by Germany or if they were, they were rebuilt) so that’s:

12 Shots round 1, 2 hits on average
10 Shots round 2, 2 hits on average (rounding up)
8 Shots round 3, 1 hit on average (rounding down)
7 Shots round 4, 1 hit on average (rounding down)
6 Shots round 5, 1 hit on average
5 Shots round 6, 1 hit on average (rounding up)
4 Shots round 7, 1 hit on average (rounding up)
3 Shots round 8, No hits on average (rounding down)
3 Shots round 9, 1 hit on average (rounding up)
2 Shots round 10, no hits on average.

So you went from getting 2 hits on average with the current rules, to 10 hits on average with the proposed rules. That’s a SIGNIFICANT increase!  It’s way more than is necessary to turn the tide of battle in Russia, and Germany has to hope to crush Russia pretty darn quick to win the game as it is now.  (And hellz yes, I am keeping all four of those guns operational until it comes down to trading armored units or the number of attacking planes has been decimated to the point it’s not worth keeping them alive anymore!)

Option 1: AAA, a hit after 1st round force plane to withdraw.
Each gun would get up to 3 shots per round.

After a 10 round battle for Moscow, that’s 4 AA Guns at 12 planes:

12 Shots round 1, 2 hits on average                     12/0     2 planes destroyed
10 Shots round 2, 2 hits on average (rounding up) 22/12   2 planes must retreat.
8 Shots round 3, 1 hit on average                         30/24  1 plane must retreat
7 Shots round 4, 1 hit on average (rounding down) 37/30  1 plane must retreat
6 Shots round 5, 1 hit on average (rounding down) 43/36  1 plane must retreat
5 Shots round 6, 1 hit on average                         48/42  1 plane must retreat
4 Shots round 7, 1 hit on average (rounding up)     52/48  1 plane must retreat
3 Shots round 8, no hit on average (rounding down)55/54
3 Shots round 9, 1 hit on average (rounding up)     58/54   1 plane must retreat
2 Shots round 10, no hit on average.                     60/60
            8 planes have retreated.

So you went from getting 2 hits on average with the current rules, to 10 hits on average with the proposed option 1.
This means Germany still kept  10 planes and only lose 2 planes.
But, there is only 2 planes on the battlefield.

Option 2:
Each gun would get up to 3 shots per round and 1 shot/rnd after first round.

After a 10 round battle for Moscow, that’s 4 AA Guns at 12 planes:

12 Shots round 1, 2 hits on average            2 planes destroyed
4 Shots round 2, 1hit on average (rounding up)      1 plane destroyed
4 Shots round 3, 1 hit on average (rounding up)     1 plane destroyed
4 Shots round 4, no hit to keep the average: 2 hits/12 shots
4 Shots round 5, 1 hit on average (rounding up)     1 plane destroyed
4 Shots round 6, 1 hit on average (rounding up)     1 plane destroyed
4 Shots round 7, no hit to keep the average            
4 Shots round 8, 1 hit on average (rounding up)     1 plane destroyed
4 Shots round 9, 1 hit on average (rounding up)     1 plane destroyed
4 Shots round 10, no hits on average.

Option 2 results:
Get 4 times regular casualities =  8 planes will be destroyed on average but 4 planes will still be on the battlefield.

Option 3:
Each AAA gun would get up to 1 shot/1 plane (whichever is less)  every round.

After a 10 round battle for Moscow, that’s 4 AA Guns at 12 planes:

4 Shots round 1, 1 hit on average (rounding up)   4/0   1 plane destroyed
4 Shots round 2, no hit to keep the average:        8/6
4 Shots round 3, 1 hit on average (rounding up)  12/6  1 plane destroyed
4 Shots round 4, 1 hit on average (rounding up)  16/12 1 plane destroyed
4 Shots round 5, no hit to keep the average:       20/18
4 Shots round 6, 1 hit on average                      24/18 1 plane destroyed
4 Shots round 7, 1 hit on average (rounding up)  28/24 1 plane destroyed
4 Shots round 8, no hit to keep the average:       32/30
4 Shots round 9, 1 hit on average (rounding up)  36/30 1 plane destroyed
4 Shots round 10, 1 hit on average (rounding up) 40/36 1 plane destroyed

Option 3 results:
Get 3.5 times regular casualities =  7 planes will be destroyed on average but 5 planes will still be on the battlefield.

Option 4:
Each gun would get up to 3 shots per round at 1/18 rates of casualities.
After a 10 round battle for Moscow, that’s 4 AA Guns at 12 planes:

12 Shots round 1, 1 hit on average (rounding up)        12/18  1 plane destroyed
11 Shots round 2, no hit on average (rounding down)  23/18
11 Shots round 3, 1 hit on average (rounding up)        34/36 1 plane destroyed
10 Shots round 4, no hit on average (rounding down)  44/36
10 Shots round 5, 1 hit on average                            54/54  1 plane destroyed
9 Shots round 6, 1 hit on average (rounding up)         63/72  1 plane destroyed
8 Shots round 7, no hit to keep the average :             71/72
8 Shots round 8, no hit on average (rounding down)   79/72
8 Shots round 9, 1 hit on average (rounding up)         87/72   1 plane destroyed
7 Shots round 10, no hit on average (rounding down)  94/90

Option 4 results:
5 planes will be destroyed on average and 7 planes will still be on the battlefield.

OOB rule (3 rolls@1 on 1st rnd only): 2 killed  10 remaining
Option 0 (3 rolls@1 after 1st rnd):     10 killed 2 remaining
Option 1 (3 rolls@1 after 1st rnd):     2 killed  2 stayin’ battle 8 compel to retreat planes
Option 2 (1 roll@1 after 1st rnd):      8 killed  4 remaining
Option 3 (1 roll@1 each rnd):           7 killed  4 remaining
Option 4 (3 rolls@1/18 always):        5 killed  7 remaining

Now we can better compare between them.

Do you think option 1 can still be viable and interesting purchase?
Since their is only 2 kills as OOB, but it can also hinder seriously an attacking Germany, for instance, by compeling all aircrafts being hit to withdraw from the battle. Some attacking punchs will be missing in combat for sure.

Planes are not destroyed, so no IPC directly lost but indirectly it is the case via the lack of airsupport to attack ennemy’s ground units  and causing less casualities than expected.

And what about option 4? Is it still too overpowering?
And we didn’t consider at all taking some AAA as casualities, which could be a very possible option in a long lasting battle, which could mean lesser odds to make casualities on planes.

Wait, I think you don’t have my retreat option correct.

Round 1, Russia gets 2 AA Gun hits.
Germany rolls 2d6 and has a 1/6 per hit plane that it was only damaged and not destroyed.
Round 1 normal combat occurs.

Round 2,  Russia gets 2 AA Gun hits again, for instance (10/12 rounding up)
Germany rolls 2d6 again.  etc

It’s only a chance per AA Gun hit that the German plane, in this scenario, is damaged and forced to retreat before initial combat begins.

And I think you missed an option:
AA Guns only they fire in each round of battle provided they have a valid target, but only once per round, per gun:
4 AA Guns on Moscow against 12 planes would be 4 shots round 1 etc until they were destroyed.

@ Cmdr Jen
This is true, I will correct this in the earlier post.

@Cmdr:

Wait, I think you don’t have my retreat option correct.
Round 1, Russia gets 2 AA Gun hits.
Germany rolls 2d6 and has a 1/6 per hit plane that it was only damaged and not destroyed.
Round 1 normal combat occurs.

Round 2,  Russia gets 2 AA Gun hits again, for instance (10/12 rounding up)
Germany rolls 2d6 again.  etc

It’s only a chance per AA Gun hit that the German plane, in this scenario, is damaged and forced to retreat before initial combat begins.

And I think you missed an option:
AA Guns only they fire in each round of battle provided they have a valid target, but only once per round, per gun:
4 AA Guns on Moscow against 12 planes would be 4 shots round 1 etc until they were destroyed.

About your retreat option, it depends in which main option rule you performed it, except for option 1 which implies automatic “damage and opportunity to retreat” for each plane getting hit.

Option 0, 2 and 3 seems to be able to save 1 plane since their is near or more than 6 casualities.

For my part, I still prefer option 4, AAA always defending on 1/18 against up to 3 planes each round.
Maybe, I can somewhat limit is power by according preemptive strike only for the first round.
In this way, any plane hit after first round, can return fire before being discarded from the board.

So, on long multiple rounds battle AAA will get a little “Humph” compared to OOB defend @1.
But it doesn’t seems too much for me now.

Do you think it is well balance for an only antiaircraft unit which can be use every round?

I’d say, if you limit AA Guns to 1 shot every round there exists a legal target for them to shoot at, then I wouldn’t add any other rules or restrictions.  I think it’s really balanced at that point.  This, of course, still assumes you can choose to destroy the AA Gun as you would any other unit you are assigning damage too.

@Cmdr:

I’d say, if you limit AA Guns to 1 shot every round there exists a legal target for them to shoot at, then I wouldn’t add any other rules or restrictions. I think it’s really balanced at that point.  This, of course, still assumes you can choose to destroy the AA Gun as you would any other unit you are assigning damage too.

Are you are talking about this option?
Option 3:
Each AAA gun would get up to 1 shot/1 plane (whichever is less)  every round.
Which is 3.5 more killer than OOB? :evil:

I think I’m (or my friends playing A&A are) more conservative.
I found option 4 a lesser killer with a 2.5 times killing rate of OOB.   8-)

I wasn’t talking about dice mecanics (as I said earlier, my friends already played with 2 dice rolls mecanics to determine if a target is hit or not.)

My only interrest is to find something near OOB ratio with much more utility and applications (like being able to fire each round).

If it’s true that you like option 3,
I would add this:
The only limitation, after the first round first strike: up to 1 additionnal roll @1 against the same plane for the remaining of the battle.

Following the table below, their is 11 planes remaining after first round.

To keep this rule up:  take dices apart and create a 11 dices pool, for example.

Every time AAA can shoot a plane, pick 1 dice from the pool. When their is no more dice, then AAA shots are over.
This means on the fourth round, their will be no more shots.
So in average, the killing rate is 3 planes (in 4 rounds) it is only 1 over the OOB 2 casualities in the same situation.

After a 10 round battle for Moscow, that’s 4 AA Guns at 4 planes only:

4 Shots round 1, 1 hit on average (rounding up)   4/0   1 plane destroyed
4 Shots round 2, no hit to keep the average:        8/6
4 Shots round 3, 1 hit on average (rounding up)  12/6  1 plane destroyed
4 Shots round 4, 1 hit on average (rounding up)  16/12 1 plane destroyed

For me, it is the only way to reduce the casuality rate.

If I had choice, with this limitation of 1 roll/plane after first round, I would rather choose:
Option 2:
Each AAA gun would get up to 3 shots per round and 1 shot/rnd after first round.
The casualities could be around 4 planes in 4 rounds. Which is double casuality rate on average.

(Don’t forget that it is still possible that defender had to pick AAA as casuality earlier in the battle.)

Option 2:
Each gun would get up to 3 shots per round and 1 shot/rnd after first round.

After a 4 round battle for Moscow, that’s 4 AA Guns x3 = at 12 planes first time and 10 more individual shots after:

12 Shots round 1, 2 hits on average                    2 planes destroyed
4 Shots round 2, 1hit on average (rounding up)      1 plane destroyed
4 Shots round 3, 1 hit on average (rounding up)     1 plane destroyed
4 2 Shots round 4, no hit to keep the average

No, I am thinking each AA Gun gets 1 shot regardless of how many planes attack, but they get 1 shot per round until there are no planes left in the battle.

@Cmdr:

No, I am thinking each AA Gun gets 1 shot regardless of how many planes attack, but they get 1 shot per round until there are no planes left in the battle.

.

What’s wrong with my idea

AAA are treated as normal unit during normal combat. Hitting on a 1
They still get the 3 preemptive rolls at planes
This follows choose your own casualties

This is very self explainatory IMO

So once a battle begins (after the preemptive 3 AA dice), AAA roll no differently than, say an infantry. Except obviously the AAA hits only on a 1

Does not matter if there are planes or not

In my opinion, they get 3 shots in opening fire because they no longer get to participate except as meatshields.  If they get to continue participating, then I feel it is sufficient to limit them to the same number of shots as all other participants: 1 per round.

They are already getting to snipe at the most expensive, highest value pieces on the board.  It’s not like being reduced to 1 shot a round per gun, provided there are valid targets, is going to penalize them.  Heck, before Alpha 3, that’s all they got: 1 shot per attacking plane ONCE per battle.

@Cmdr:

In my opinion, they get 3 shots in opening fire because they no longer get to participate except as meatshields.  If they get to continue participating, then I feel it is sufficient to limit them to the same number of shots as all other participants: 1 per round.

They are already getting to snipe at the most expensive, highest value pieces on the board.  It’s not like being reduced to 1 shot a round per gun, provided there are valid targets, is going to penalize them.  Heck, before Alpha 3, that’s all they got: 1 shot per attacking plane ONCE per battle.

So you agree with me?
It’s not very clear IMO

Also I really think you are looking at my post, then changing what it says and then posting on that and not what I actually said lol

Under my proposal AAA (after preemptive AA rolls) are treated as a normal unit with a roll of 1
So if the AAA rolls a hit in normal combat, that hit does not have to be taken by an aircraft lol

Hopefully by the time you read this you are feeling better ;)

Ah, no, I had not seen that you could apply the hit to any unit.

What I am saying is make it a Axis and Allies Classic/Revised/Anniversary AA Gun again, except, it can be taken as a casualty and can fire in the opening fire stage of each round so long as there are attacking planes.  Basically, it gets Submarine Rules applied to it.

No more 3 shots in round 1 opening fire.

@Uncrustable:

@Cmdr:

No, I am thinking each AA Gun gets 1 shot regardless of how many planes attack, but they get 1 shot per round until there are no planes left in the battle.

.

What’s wrong with my idea?

AAA are treated as normal unit during normal combat. Hitting on a 1
They still get the 3 preemptive rolls at planes
This follows choose your own casualties

This is very self explainatory IMO

So once a battle begins (after the preemptive 3 AA dice), AAA roll no differently than, say an infantry. Except obviously the AAA hits only on a 1.

Does not matter if there are planes or not.

There’s nothing wrong about your idea.
Actually, I like it.
It works almost like a regular unit.
After 1st rnd, on defense @1, it is 50% less effective against any unit than Inf or Art@2.
Can not attack.
Works like an Antiaircraft artillery  division which has is own autonomy which includes some foot soldiers with hands guns to defend those artillery pieces (as you explained).

As I said earlier, I’m just working on a different rationalization of AAA, as essentially fixed AA guns with little mobility and no weapon to hit any ground units. (Since the main guns platforms are ground-to-air nothing else.)
I try to develop around the OOB classic AA which can solely hit planes.
Your help is welcome, to develop a balance AAA unit along this way.

Hey, it’s a house rule, you don’t have to take my suggestions, however, I’m all about free, unasked for and sometimes unwanted, advice giving. :P

Heck, it’s better than being yelled at for saying there is no rule prohibiting China from bidding armor or bombers or AA Guns. lol.  I’m sure there will be!

Anyway, been toying with trying to revive Delta rules for G40, a more realistic version of AA Guns might be part of that.

@Cmdr:

Ah, no, I had not seen that you could apply the hit to any unit.

What I am saying is make it a Axis and Allies Classic/Revised/Anniversary AA Gun again, except, it can be taken as a casualty and can fire in the opening fire stage of each round so long as there are attacking planes.� Basically, it gets Submarine Rules applied to it.

No more 3 shots in round 1 opening fire.�

No, I am thinking each AA Gun gets 1 shot regardless of how many planes attack, but they get 1 shot per round until there are no planes left in the battle.

You are creating almost a firewall of AAA  :evil: against small group of air support, like 1 or 2 planes.

Example If there is 4 AAA in a territory, 2 planes will get 2 shot @1 against both of them, every round. If it was only 1 plane, it means 4 shots@1. And it is also preemptive, on the first round and even more (according to your last suggestion)!

That’s the main reason to keep this rule: either 1/AAA or 1/plane whichever is less.

It is necessary to limit this snipe against “the most expensive, highest value pieces on the board”.

Even 1 shot every turn is much more powerful than OOB, as I said earlier (a better 3.5 times killing ratio vs OOB ).

No, what I am trying to say is that the AA Gun cannot shoot anymore if there are no more attacking planes, whether they were shot down or retreated.  However, it gets 1 shot a round, per AA Gun in the territory being attacked, per attacking aircraft.

So if Germany is attacked and has 3 AA Guns, but there are 15 British fighters attacking, then Germany gets 3 shots a round with the AA Guns until the aircraft are all destroyed, the AA Guns are destroyed or the Aircraft retreat.

@Cmdr:

Ah, no, I had not seen that you could apply the hit to any unit.

What I am saying is make it a Axis and Allies Classic/Revised/Anniversary AA Gun again, except, it can be taken as a casualty and can fire in the opening fire stage of each round so long as there are attacking planes.  Basically, it gets Submarine Rules applied to it.

No more 3 shots in round 1 opening fire.

So what you saying is that AAA roll a dice per aircraft each round and AAA are not stackable?
So if 2 planes roll 2 dice if 50 planes roll 50 dice?
Seems a bit overpowering to me

If you are saying each AAA roll 1 dice each round then that would reduce the effectiveness of AAA. It would work maybe with an cost reduction

But my idea slightly increases AAA’s effective with very little change to the current rules

AAA are treated as normal unit during normal combat. Hitting on a 1
They still get the 3 preemptive rolls at planes
This follows choose your casualties

So once a battle begins (after the preemptive 3 AA dice), AAA roll no differently than, say an infantry. Except obviously the AAA hits only on a 1

Does not matter if there are planes or not