AA Guns

Yup, I hail from the Ukraine, we have a different perspective.  We were both winners and losers in the Great War, added to what I learned in school, I have to say, France and England are the great war criminals who were never charged with instigating one world war and creating a situation that engendered an environment in which a second world war was inevitable.

But, unlike many who I have debated with here in the States, I won’t be offended if you think I am wrong and choose to believe your version of history.  There is, of course, a 3rd version of history as well, the Germans/Hungarians who were the real losers of the war also have their perspective.

@Uncrustable:

I thought in revised it did fire during NCM

To me it should

Some may think that a version of A&A included Always Active AA gun.
Maybe it is because it was an option in Iron Blitz computer version of A&A.
As I remember, Always Active AA gun means it fire also during NCM.
It was a basic rule that, during Combat Move, any territories flyed over can use any AA gun to try to shot down planes.

About introducing more possibilities to fire with the AA(A) gun, I agree with the principle, it gives more strategical chalenges.
But not in practical situation of game balance. That’s the problem.

I already promote, in my previous posts, an AAA with odds at 1/12 instead of 1/6 for every occasions it could fire at plane.

You can see easily the balance issue:

**Suppose 3 StrB has to fly over 1 territory with AAA before reaching the war-zone territory in which their is also an AAA.

Actual rule: each StrB endure 1@1 = 3 planes are shot at.

With Always active AAgun: each StrB endure 3@1 = 3 planes x 3 shots = 9@1.
1AA for coming in, 1AA for fighting over, 1AA for returning home.**

If you want something balance Always Active AA gun which respect Axis System:
You allow only 1 plane per AAA (instead of 3).
You allow any AAA 1@1 against any one aircraft in any territory flied over.
You limit the max roll to the number of aircraft present, i. e. 3AAA against 1 plane mean a single roll @1 against this aircraft.

With this House Rule, the same 3 StrB didn’t face the same fate:
At all, their is only 3 AAA shots against them (instead of 9 shots for Always Active AA):
1AA shot for coming in, 1AA shot for fighting over, 1AA shot for returning home for all the group instead of each StrB.

In this way, you get the same odds as actual OOB rules:

Actual rule: each StrB endure 1@1 = 3 planes are shot at.

However, with this HR, if you have only 1 plane it is at higher risk since this single aircraft endure 3 rolls @1 (instead of only 1 roll@1 in the OOB Global rule).

Consequence?
To minimize the casuality efffect, air raid will be made with at least two or more planes on the same target using the first plane as a screen/buffer against AAA.
To destroy more aircrafts, you will need more AAA to put in the flight path of the attacker.

Their is still a paradox:
the non-fighting territory get 2 chances to fire against moving plane (CM and NCM) while the war-zone territory get only 1 chance during CM.

To rectify this situation, I will use what was suggested by this post:
@P-Unit:

If change were to happen I’d like AA to fire before every round, one attack per AA unit, similar to subs Surprise Strike round. Still, no combat move. Still simple and works well within the existing rules.

we should give each AAA unit an unlimited number of preemptive fire, but up to 2 shots against the same plane, never more.

So, in our same example about 3 StrB against 2AAA in two different territories.

During first round in the combat-zone, 1 StrB#1 was fired at.
Second round in the combat-zone, another: StrB#2 or the same StrB#1 can be fired at.
Third round in the combat-zone, a third or second plane can be fired at.
Fourth round, StrB#2 is shot for the second time.
Fifth and Sixth round (if their is), StrB#3 can be shot at.

Final result: maximum of 8AAA shots will be fired over 6 rounds of battle. 2 inbound CM/outbound NCM and 3x2 in the war-zone CM.

If their is only one single plane making the same bombing run, it will face: 4 shots maximum, 2 shots inbound CM/outbound NCM and 2 in the war-zone, CM.

If their was two planes or more: 6 shots maximum , 2 shots inbound CM/outbound NCM and 4 in the war-zone, CM.

Is it better balance?
(Even if it allows up to 4 shots on a single plane, a maximum of 2 on each plane during battle but it is limited by 1 shot/AAA/round instead of a bloody first cycle of preemptive strikes against 3 planes/AAA) ?

Does AAA will become a more interesting buying?

@Cmdr:

Yup, I hail from the Ukraine, we have a different perspective.  We were both winners and losers in the Great War, added to what I learned in school, I have to say, France and England are the great war criminals who were never charged with instigating one world war and creating a situation that engendered an environment in which a second world war was inevitable.

But, unlike many who I have debated with here in the States, I won’t be offended if you think I am wrong and choose to believe your version of history.  There is, of course, a 3rd version of history as well, the Germans/Hungarians who were the real losers of the war also have their perspective.

I’m just opening my mind on this aspect; last week, I saw a French (strange?! isn’t it?) documentary defending something near your former assertion.

This post is getting oddly complicated.

@atease:

This post is getting oddly complicated.

Baron tends to do that lol

I just think classic AA was better  :wink:

@Uncrustable:

@atease:

This post is getting oddly complicated.

Baron tends to do that lol

I just think classic AA was better  :wink:

He! I was just trying getting back to an Old version of Iron Blitz but without the outbalancing it could create in OOB Global… :cry:

@Uncrustable:

@atease:

This post is getting oddly complicated.

Baron tends to do that lol

I just think classic AA was better :wink:

I like the old AA too, but introducing it in Global or 1942 need some adjustment balance:

Example: 8 fighters against 2 AAA in 1 territory in flight path and 2 AAA in the combat-zone.

OOB AAA rule: 6@1 once.  VeryLowLuck= 1 hit, 10 IPCs
Lost : 1 Fighter 10 IPCs

Always Active AA gun but limited to up to 3 planes (as new AAA):
CM in 1st territory: 6@1. LowLuck= 1 hit, 10 IPCs       7 remaining Fgts
CM in Combat territory: 6@1. LowLuck= 1 hit, 10 IPCs   6 remaining Fgts
NCM in First territory: 6@1. Low Luck= 1 hit, 10 IPCs     5 remaining Fgts
Lost: 3 Fighters 30 IPCs

Everybody is convinced?

Under my HR adjustment:

Always Active AA gun but limited to up to 1 attack/1AAA/1 plane/round and up to 2 shots/plane over same territory:

Still 8 fighters against 2 AAA in 1 territory in flight path and 2 AAA in the combat-zone.

CM in First territory: 2@1. Very LowLuck= 0 hit 2/6 ,                8 remaining Fgts
CM in Combat territory: 2@1. VLL= 0 hit 2/6,  cumulative: 4/6  8 remaining Fgts
2nd round: 2@1 VLL= 1 hit,                         7 remaining Fgts
3rd round: 2@1 VLL= 0 hit, 2/6    
4th ?  ( 2@1 VLL= 0 hit, 2/6 cumulative: 4/6) 5th?
NCM in First territory: 2@1. VLL= 0 hit 2/6, cumulative 4/6 and still 7 remaining Fgts if only 3 rnd of battle.

If their was a 4th rnd and still 2 AAA then, their would be 6 remaining Fgts.

So, in this example, after the second round of battle, this AAA HR can be deadlier than OOB rule but far less than Classic Always Active AA gun.

The basic principle is simple:

Everywhere there is 1AAA and a plane over it, you can shoot 1@1 either CM or NCM.

The only limitation: up to 2 rolls @1 against the same plane for a same territory.

Well baron in your scenario 30ipc worth of planes are lost
I say good. It is the risk (pretty large risk) the player took to fly that many planes over that many AA guns
You must plan a little better if you don’t want to risk your aircraft to that many AA
If player A spams AA then player B can counter with superior ground forces, but player A now has air superiority
You see where I’m going with this?

4 AA guns would cost 24 IPC
Also your scenario would be extremely rare, what with so many Sea zones.
It would prob take more like 8 AA in 4 tt to create this (48ipc)

@Uncrustable:

Well baron in your scenario 30ipc worth of planes are lost
I say good. It is the risk (pretty large risk) the player took to fly that many planes over that many AA guns
You must plan a little better if you don’t want to risk your aircraft to that many AA
If player A spams AA then player B can counter with superior ground forces, but player A now has air superiority
You see where I’m going with this?

4 AA guns would cost 24 IPC
Also your scenario would be extremely rare, what with so many Sea zones.
It would prob take more like 8 AA in 4 tt to create this (48ipc)

True, this is a very rare situation.
I’m wondering,  why include a combat during Non-Combat phase under the Always Active AA gun. I think it is better to forget it.

For simplicity, we can stay with the all AAA are active during Combat Movement Phase only.
In some case, the additionnal @1 against 3 planes flying over a AAA defended territory will bother.
And it creates a strategical challenge. You emphasised it and I buy it.

But the problem will remain to get a more interesting AAA.

Is it possible to allow AAA (under specific conditions) to fire every round like other units?

It will be more interesting and less predictable from a tactical point of view that plane can also crash in other time than opening fire phase.

About cost: the Second editions lower the cost of AAA to 5 IPCs. It is an other incentive to count on.

Is it possible to mix something between OOB and a full AAA OP?

The actual 1 AAA@1 against 3 planes, opening fire then no more vs
1 AAA@1 against 3 planes every round, preemptive fire.

I think the always always on AA was “Dogs of War” which was the first (that I know of) PC game of Axis and Allies - much like TripleA, but with a smart AI, better sound effects, better graphics and less configurability - it was also classic or their preset different rules like triple starting units, etc.

Revised, I think - it’s been a while, had a version of always on AA where each gun you flew over during combat move could fire at your planes.  It made the game needlessly complicated, in my opinion, whatever version it was in.  Why fly around France, instead of flying over the clouds and diving down to bombing distance when you get to your target???  Not to mention meticulously planning out your flight path to minimize danger each round get annoying as crud, cause you always got challenged by your opponent which, when playing online, essentially doubled play time.

That said, dont forget the average AA Gun costs the attacker 2 IPC (based on a 12 IPC strategic bomber) so if he has to fly over 3 of them to get to the target and 3 more to get home, that’s a 12 IPC loss to the attacker - on average.  Those AA Guns better cost some serious money to justify that kind of risk!  In my opinion.

@Cmdr:

I think the always always on AA was “Dogs of War” which was the first (that I know of) PC game of Axis and Allies - much like TripleA, but with a smart AI, better sound effects, better graphics and less configurability - it was also classic or their preset different rules like triple starting units, etc.

Revised, I think - it’s been a while, had a version of always on AA where each gun you flew over during combat move could fire at your planes.  It made the game needlessly complicated, in my opinion, whatever version it was in.  Why fly around France, instead of flying over the clouds and diving down to bombing distance when you get to your target???  Not to mention meticulously planning out your flight path to minimize danger each round get annoying as crud, cause you always got challenged by your opponent which, when playing online, essentially doubled play time.

That said, dont forget the average AA Gun costs the attacker 2 IPC (based on a 12 IPC strategic bomber) so if he has to fly over 3 of them to get to the target and 3 more to get home, that’s a 12 IPC loss to the attacker - on average.  Those AA Guns better cost some serious money to justify that kind of risk!  In my opinion.

in order for a bomber to have to fly over 3 aa there would have to be atleast 5-6 aa in 5-6 tts to create a ‘wall’ of aa 3 aa deep.
that is no matter what route the bomber takes it will have to fly over 3 aa

so lets say 6 aa guns X 6 ipc = 36IPC !!! 3x its damage value per turn!!!

@Cmdr:

I think the always always on AA was “Dogs of War” which was the first (that I know of) PC game of Axis and Allies - much like TripleA, but with a smart AI, better sound effects, better graphics and less configurability - it was also classic or their preset different rules like triple starting units, etc.

Revised, I think - it’s been a while, had a version of always on AA where each gun you flew over during combat move could fire at your planes.  It made the game needlessly complicated, in my opinion, whatever version it was in.  Why fly around France, instead of flying over the clouds and diving down to bombing distance when you get to your target???  Not to mention meticulously planning out your flight path to minimize danger each round get annoying as crud, cause you always got challenged by your opponent which, when playing online, essentially doubled play time.

That said, dont forget the average AA Gun costs the attacker 2 IPC (based on a 12 IPC strategic bomber) so if he has to fly over 3 of them to get to the target and 3 more to get home, that’s a 12 IPC loss to the attacker - on average.  Those AA Guns better cost some serious money to justify that kind of risk!  In my opinion.

Actually, it is an almost impossibility because the plane will fly over 2 territories before entering the combat-zone, then leave in another direction to pass over 3 other territories in which there is also AAA. It would be a suicidal player.

You said “needlessly complicated”, does it takes too much time for players to find the best path to get somewhere? Is this a real problem from your point of view? It seems more of a problem with on-line playing than board gaming, no?

I always thought it was a part of the challenge to find a traveling way to escape some AA (like flying over Baltic ocean instead of Western Europe, in Classic version).

I would add as I said earlier I’m not fond of AAA firing during Non-Combat move.

@Cmdr:

I think the always always on AA was “Dogs of War” which was the first (that I know of) PC game of Axis and Allies - much like TripleA, but with a smart AI, better sound effects, better graphics and less configurability - it was also classic or their preset different rules like triple starting units, etc.

Um, have you looked at Triplea and the old PC A&A recently?  Triplea has sounds that are eerily similar to the 1998 PC game… Better graphics?  Perhaps with the ‘explosions’ and wavy flags, but it was still just a map like Triplea…

You lost me on the ‘smart AI’ that was on that PC game…

@Baron:

@Uncrustable:

Well baron in your scenario 30ipc worth of planes are lost
I say good. It is the risk (pretty large risk) the player took to fly that many planes over that many AA guns
You must plan a little better if you don’t want to risk your aircraft to that many AA
If player A spams AA then player B can counter with superior ground forces, but player A now has air superiority
You see where I’m going with this?

4 AA guns would cost 24 IPC
Also your scenario would be extremely rare, what with so many Sea zones.
It would prob take more like 8 AA in 4 tt to create this (48ipc)

True, this is a very rare situation.
I’m wondering,  why include a combat during Non-Combat phase under the Always Active AA gun. I think it is better to forget it.

For simplicity, we can stay with the all AAA are active during Combat Movement Phase only.
In some case, the additionnal @1 against 3 planes flying over a AAA defended territory will bother.
And it creates a strategical challenge. You emphasised it and I buy it.

But the problem will remain to get a more interesting AAA.

Is it possible to allow AAA (under specific conditions) to fire every round like other units?

It will be more interesting and less predictable from a tactical point of view that plane can also crash in other time than opening fire phase.

About cost: the Second editions lower the cost of AAA to 5 IPCs. It is an other incentive to count on.

Is it possible to mix something between OOB and a full AAA OP?

The actual 1 AAA@1 against 3 planes, opening fire then no more vs
1 AAA@1 against 3 planes every round, preemptive fire.

For now, I’m still thinking the best way to get everything without too much unbalancing, is still the ugly 1/12 odds (1 on D12 or “1” on 1st D6 then “3” or less on the 2nd roll after this “1”) for every opportunity to roll some AAA dice.

Any prior territory: 1AAA attack to up to 3 planes at 1/12 odds on each.

Combat-zone: on first cycle, 1AAA get preemptive attack to up to 3 planes at 1/12 odds on each.
Second round and after: 1AAA still get regular (no more preemptive) roll against 3 planes at 1/12 odds.
No limits on the number of round.
That’s all.

IMO, it takes four round of battle to start outbalancing compare to OOB rule.

@Uncrustable:

@Cmdr:

I think the always always on AA was “Dogs of War” which was the first (that I know of) PC game of Axis and Allies - much like TripleA, but with a smart AI, better sound effects, better graphics and less configurability - it was also classic or their preset different rules like triple starting units, etc.

Revised, I think - it’s been a while, had a version of always on AA where each gun you flew over during combat move could fire at your planes.  It made the game needlessly complicated, in my opinion, whatever version it was in.  Why fly around France, instead of flying over the clouds and diving down to bombing distance when you get to your target???  Not to mention meticulously planning out your flight path to minimize danger each round get annoying as crud, cause you always got challenged by your opponent which, when playing online, essentially doubled play time.

That said, dont forget the average AA Gun costs the attacker 2 IPC (based on a 12 IPC strategic bomber) so if he has to fly over 3 of them to get to the target and 3 more to get home, that’s a 12 IPC loss to the attacker - on average.  Those AA Guns better cost some serious money to justify that kind of risk!  In my opinion.

in order for a bomber to have to fly over 3 aa there would have to be atleast 5-6 aa in 5-6 tts to create a ‘wall’ of aa 3 aa deep.
that is no matter what route the bomber takes it will have to fly over 3 aa

so lets say 6 aa guns X 6 ipc = 36IPC !!! 3x its damage value per turn!!!

@BJCard:

@Cmdr:

I think the always always on AA was “Dogs of War” which was the first (that I know of) PC game of Axis and Allies - much like TripleA, but with a smart AI, better sound effects, better graphics and less configurability - it was also classic or their preset different rules like triple starting units, etc.

Um, have you looked at Triplea and the old PC A&A recently?  Triplea has sounds that are eerily similar to the 1998 PC game… Better graphics?  Perhaps with the ‘explosions’ and wavy flags, but it was still just a map like Triplea…

You lost me on the ‘smart AI’ that was on that PC game…

I used the term smart AI compared to the Hasbro game and TripleA.  None of these are super computers, but Dogs of War was far superior at playing Axis and Allies.  Then again, I stopped using TripleA after Alpha 2 was replaced.  Good way to get familiar with the rules, but hardly what I would call “stimulating game play.”

Baron:

Strategic Bomber + Long Range Aircraft + Air Base

• Take off,
• Fly over AA Gun 1
• Fly over AA Gun 2
• Fly over AA Gun 3
• Fly over AA Gun 4 at target coordinates
• Return over AA Gun 3 (5th shot)
• Return over AA Gun 2 (6th shot)
• Return over AA Gun 1 (7th shot)
• Land
• Give pilot a hero’s welcome and buy him a new girl to sleep with every night in hopes of repopulating your nation with super pilots who are immune to AA Gun fire!

Cost for Germany: they have 6 guns, so technically 0, right?
Cost for Russia: 12 IPC since they have to buy the bomber first!

Just an example.  It would probably never arise, but you can see how things can get freaking INSANE with it.  Then of course there’s the “okay, so fly to where the Johnson’s house used to be before the fire, then go down to 7th avenue and make a right, then make an immediate left where the cow is - unless the cow isn’t there today, and when you get to the end of the road, make a u-turn and make a left down the ally where Bill was mugged last week, another hundred yards or so and you’ll be there!” Crud for flying around guns all day, only to have your opponent complain that you had to fly over one of his guns in some obscure territory your pilot should never have been flying in AA Gun range in, taking up another 2 or 3 days of online play so you can correct them because they failed to notice that territory A and sea zone B are connected.

It’s annoying.  Been there, done that.  Rather not go back to it, thanks. =^_^=  If you want to, more power too you, but I say if that’s the case, those AA Guns better cost 12 IPC minimum to compensate for the significant increase in potential losses to attackers and the nuissance of dealing with alternate flight paths.

@Cmdr:

Baron:

Strategic Bomber + Long Range Aircraft + Air Base

• Take off,
• Fly over AA Gun 1
• Fly over AA Gun 2
• Fly over AA Gun 3
• Fly over AA Gun 4 at target coordinates
• Return over AA Gun 3 (5th shot)
• Return over AA Gun 2 (6th shot)
• Return over AA Gun 1 (7th shot)  That’s not possible, it is a friendly landing-zone.
• Land
• Give pilot a hero’s welcome and buy him a new girl to sleep with every night in hopes of repopulating your nation with super pilots who are immune to AA Gun fire! :-D

Cost for Germany: they have 6 guns, so technically 0, right?
Cost for Russia: 12 IPC since they have to buy the bomber first!

Just an example.  It would probably never arise, but you can see how things can get freaking INSANE with it.  Then of course there’s the “okay, so fly to where the Johnson’s house used to be before the fire, then go down to 7th avenue and make a right, then make an immediate left where the cow is - unless the cow isn’t there today, and when you get to the end of the road, make a u-turn and make a left down the ally where Bill was mugged last week, another hundred yards or so and you’ll be there!” Crud for flying around guns all day, only to have your opponent complain that you had to fly over one of his guns in some obscure territory your pilot should never have been flying in AA Gun range in, taking up another 2 or 3 days of online play so you can correct them because they failed to notice that territory A and sea zone B are connected.

It’s annoying.  Been there, done that. Rather not go back to it, thanks. =^_^=  If you want to, more power too you, but I say if that’s the case, those AA Guns better cost 12 IPC minimum to compensate for the significant increase in potential losses to attackers and the nuissance of dealing with alternate flight paths.

Wow! You take it seriously when you refute someone. :-)

Actually, I can see now that the maximum AAA 1 single plane can fly over in a Combat move is 4AAA. However, the maximum AAA attack if AAA are always active is 6 shots, since the StrB must land in a friendly-zone.

I agree all along with you with the rationalization behind AAA fire only in the battle-zone territory.
Planes are flying high and above clouds (out of reach from any AAA). But planes must get down below in low altitude when only near the target (within reach of any AAA in the combat-zone).

But I thought, in strategical board game perspective, it was funny to find a path to escape AAA fire to reach the main target.
I presume too much and maybe Uncrustable opinion and mine wasn’t so widespread.

Do you have any suggestion to upgrade the usefulness and interest in buying and developing strategies with AAA gun?

If I limit this HR revised to the combat-zone, do you see an interrest in it or already too overpowered?

Combat-zone: on first cycle, 1AAA get preemptive attack to up to 3 planes at 1/12 odds on each.

Second round and after: no more preemptive roll,  but 1 AAA still fire against 3 planes at 1/12 odds.
No limits on the number of round AAA can fire.
That’s all.

Here, 2 rounds of AAA firing vs 3 targets at 1/12 will be almost the same as 1 opening firing at 1/6 vs 3 targets.

So, on the 3rd round, you start with a slight advantage against plane vs OOB rule, if you kept all your AAA. And it will increase, if you kept AAA for further rounds.

If you forget the trouble of finding a 12 sides dice, what is your opinion Cmdr Jen?

If you guys want to balance the AA gun simply allow it to fire on one more plane. Then its a great buy.

Also try playing with AT guns. They attack at 1 and defend at 1, cost is 5 and move 1.

If enemy tank or mechinf is present in battle attack and defence is boosted to 2,3.

Target enemy tank and mec first, only if tank and mec is not present may the AT gun hit other units.

Any AT guns hit on 1 is distribiuted to a tank if this is possible (optional)

Your guys examples are completely off the wall

in order for a bomber to have to fly over 3 aa there would have to be atleast 6-9 aa in 6-9 tts to create a ‘wall’ of aa 3 aa deep.
that is, no matter what route the bomber takes it will have to fly over 3 aa

so lets say 6-9 aa guns X 6 ipc = 36IPC-54IPC !!! 3x-5x its damage value per turn!!!

Seriously how f’n stupid would a player have to be to fly over all the tts with AA guns only

Please come up with better examples to support your arguments

Also remember, 9 of 11 capitals with major ICs (including WUSA) border SZs
So really the only region on the board at setup where your guys’ scenario is even possible is Moscow

:roll:

I used the term smart AI compared to the Hasbro game and TripleA.  None of these are super computers, but Dogs of War was far superior at playing Axis and Allies.  Then again, I stopped using TripleA after Alpha 2 was replaced.  Good way to get familiar with the rules, but hardly what I would call “stimulating game play.”

Well, who uses the AI in these games anyway?  The AI is poor in all A&A games, which is why you play other people.  Triplea supports this in multiple ways.