AA Guns

[baron Münchhausen]

@Uncrustable:

@atease:

This post is getting oddly complicated.

Baron tends to do that lol

I just think classic AA was better :wink:

I like the old AA too, but introducing it in Global or 1942 need some adjustment balance:

Example: 8 fighters against 2 AAA in 1 territory in flight path and 2 AAA in the combat-zone.

OOB AAA rule: 6@1 once.  VeryLowLuck= 1 hit, 10 IPCs
Lost : 1 Fighter 10 IPCs

Always Active AA gun but limited to up to 3 planes (as new AAA):
CM in 1st territory: 6@1. LowLuck= 1 hit, 10 IPCs       7 remaining Fgts
CM in Combat territory: 6@1. LowLuck= 1 hit, 10 IPCs   6 remaining Fgts
NCM in First territory: 6@1. Low Luck= 1 hit, 10 IPCs     5 remaining Fgts
Lost: 3 Fighters 30 IPCs

Everybody is convinced?

Under my HR adjustment:

Always Active AA gun but limited to up to 1 attack/1AAA/1 plane/round and up to 2 shots/plane over same territory:

Still 8 fighters against 2 AAA in 1 territory in flight path and 2 AAA in the combat-zone.

CM in First territory: 2@1. Very LowLuck= 0 hit 2/6 ,                8 remaining Fgts
CM in Combat territory: 2@1. VLL= 0 hit 2/6,  cumulative: 4/6  8 remaining Fgts
2nd round: 2@1 VLL= 1 hit,                         7 remaining Fgts
3rd round: 2@1 VLL= 0 hit, 2/6    
4th ?  ( 2@1 VLL= 0 hit, 2/6 cumulative: 4/6) 5th?
NCM in First territory: 2@1. VLL= 0 hit 2/6, cumulative 4/6 and still 7 remaining Fgts if only 3 rnd of battle.

If their was a 4th rnd and still 2 AAA then, their would be 6 remaining Fgts.

So, in this example, after the second round of battle, this AAA HR can be deadlier than OOB rule but far less than Classic Always Active AA gun.

The basic principle is simple:

Everywhere there is 1AAA and a plane over it, you can shoot 1@1 either CM or NCM.

The only limitation: up to 2 rolls @1 against the same plane for a same territory.

[Derek]

Well baron in your scenario 30ipc worth of planes are lost
I say good. It is the risk (pretty large risk) the player took to fly that many planes over that many AA guns
You must plan a little better if you don’t want to risk your aircraft to that many AA
If player A spams AA then player B can counter with superior ground forces, but player A now has air superiority
You see where I’m going with this?

4 AA guns would cost 24 IPC
Also your scenario would be extremely rare, what with so many Sea zones.
It would prob take more like 8 AA in 4 tt to create this (48ipc)

[baron Münchhausen]

@Uncrustable:

Well baron in your scenario 30ipc worth of planes are lost
I say good. It is the risk (pretty large risk) the player took to fly that many planes over that many AA guns
You must plan a little better if you don’t want to risk your aircraft to that many AA
If player A spams AA then player B can counter with superior ground forces, but player A now has air superiority
You see where I’m going with this?

4 AA guns would cost 24 IPC
Also your scenario would be extremely rare, what with so many Sea zones.
It would prob take more like 8 AA in 4 tt to create this (48ipc)

True, this is a very rare situation.
I’m wondering,  why include a combat during Non-Combat phase under the Always Active AA gun. I think it is better to forget it.

For simplicity, we can stay with the all AAA are active during Combat Movement Phase only.
In some case, the additionnal @1 against 3 planes flying over a AAA defended territory will bother.
And it creates a strategical challenge. You emphasised it and I buy it.

But the problem will remain to get a more interesting AAA.

Is it possible to allow AAA (under specific conditions) to fire every round like other units?

It will be more interesting and less predictable from a tactical point of view that plane can also crash in other time than opening fire phase.

About cost: the Second editions lower the cost of AAA to 5 IPCs. It is an other incentive to count on.

Is it possible to mix something between OOB and a full AAA OP?

The actual 1 AAA@1 against 3 planes, opening fire then no more vs
1 AAA@1 against 3 planes every round, preemptive fire.

[Jennifer]

I think the always always on AA was “Dogs of War” which was the first (that I know of) PC game of Axis and Allies - much like TripleA, but with a smart AI, better sound effects, better graphics and less configurability - it was also classic or their preset different rules like triple starting units, etc.

Revised, I think - it’s been a while, had a version of always on AA where each gun you flew over during combat move could fire at your planes.  It made the game needlessly complicated, in my opinion, whatever version it was in.  Why fly around France, instead of flying over the clouds and diving down to bombing distance when you get to your target???  Not to mention meticulously planning out your flight path to minimize danger each round get annoying as crud, cause you always got challenged by your opponent which, when playing online, essentially doubled play time.

That said, dont forget the average AA Gun costs the attacker 2 IPC (based on a 12 IPC strategic bomber) so if he has to fly over 3 of them to get to the target and 3 more to get home, that’s a 12 IPC loss to the attacker - on average.  Those AA Guns better cost some serious money to justify that kind of risk!  In my opinion.

[Derek]

@Cmdr:

I think the always always on AA was “Dogs of War” which was the first (that I know of) PC game of Axis and Allies - much like TripleA, but with a smart AI, better sound effects, better graphics and less configurability - it was also classic or their preset different rules like triple starting units, etc.

Revised, I think - it’s been a while, had a version of always on AA where each gun you flew over during combat move could fire at your planes.  It made the game needlessly complicated, in my opinion, whatever version it was in.  Why fly around France, instead of flying over the clouds and diving down to bombing distance when you get to your target???  Not to mention meticulously planning out your flight path to minimize danger each round get annoying as crud, cause you always got challenged by your opponent which, when playing online, essentially doubled play time.

That said, dont forget the average AA Gun costs the attacker 2 IPC (based on a 12 IPC strategic bomber) so if he has to fly over 3 of them to get to the target and 3 more to get home, that’s a 12 IPC loss to the attacker - on average.  Those AA Guns better cost some serious money to justify that kind of risk!  In my opinion.

in order for a bomber to have to fly over 3 aa there would have to be atleast 5-6 aa in 5-6 tts to create a ‘wall’ of aa 3 aa deep.
that is no matter what route the bomber takes it will have to fly over 3 aa

so lets say 6 aa guns X 6 ipc = 36IPC !!! 3x its damage value per turn!!!

[baron Münchhausen]

@Cmdr:

I think the always always on AA was “Dogs of War” which was the first (that I know of) PC game of Axis and Allies - much like TripleA, but with a smart AI, better sound effects, better graphics and less configurability - it was also classic or their preset different rules like triple starting units, etc.

Revised, I think - it’s been a while, had a version of always on AA where each gun you flew over during combat move could fire at your planes.  It made the game needlessly complicated, in my opinion, whatever version it was in.  Why fly around France, instead of flying over the clouds and diving down to bombing distance when you get to your target???  Not to mention meticulously planning out your flight path to minimize danger each round get annoying as crud, cause you always got challenged by your opponent which, when playing online, essentially doubled play time.

That said, dont forget the average AA Gun costs the attacker 2 IPC (based on a 12 IPC strategic bomber) so if he has to fly over 3 of them to get to the target and 3 more to get home, that’s a 12 IPC loss to the attacker - on average.  Those AA Guns better cost some serious money to justify that kind of risk!  In my opinion.

Actually, it is an almost impossibility because the plane will fly over 2 territories before entering the combat-zone, then leave in another direction to pass over 3 other territories in which there is also AAA. It would be a suicidal player.

You said “needlessly complicated”, does it takes too much time for players to find the best path to get somewhere? Is this a real problem from your point of view? It seems more of a problem with on-line playing than board gaming, no?

I always thought it was a part of the challenge to find a traveling way to escape some AA (like flying over Baltic ocean instead of Western Europe, in Classic version).

I would add as I said earlier I’m not fond of AAA firing during Non-Combat move.

[BJCard]

@Cmdr:

I think the always always on AA was “Dogs of War” which was the first (that I know of) PC game of Axis and Allies - much like TripleA, but with a smart AI, better sound effects, better graphics and less configurability - it was also classic or their preset different rules like triple starting units, etc.

Um, have you looked at Triplea and the old PC A&A recently?  Triplea has sounds that are eerily similar to the 1998 PC game… Better graphics?  Perhaps with the ‘explosions’ and wavy flags, but it was still just a map like Triplea…

You lost me on the ‘smart AI’ that was on that PC game…

[baron Münchhausen]

@Baron:

@Uncrustable:

Well baron in your scenario 30ipc worth of planes are lost
I say good. It is the risk (pretty large risk) the player took to fly that many planes over that many AA guns
You must plan a little better if you don’t want to risk your aircraft to that many AA
If player A spams AA then player B can counter with superior ground forces, but player A now has air superiority
You see where I’m going with this?

4 AA guns would cost 24 IPC
Also your scenario would be extremely rare, what with so many Sea zones.
It would prob take more like 8 AA in 4 tt to create this (48ipc)

True, this is a very rare situation.
I’m wondering,  why include a combat during Non-Combat phase under the Always Active AA gun. I think it is better to forget it.

For simplicity, we can stay with the all AAA are active during Combat Movement Phase only.
In some case, the additionnal @1 against 3 planes flying over a AAA defended territory will bother.
And it creates a strategical challenge. You emphasised it and I buy it.

But the problem will remain to get a more interesting AAA.

Is it possible to allow AAA (under specific conditions) to fire every round like other units?

It will be more interesting and less predictable from a tactical point of view that plane can also crash in other time than opening fire phase.

About cost: the Second editions lower the cost of AAA to 5 IPCs. It is an other incentive to count on.

Is it possible to mix something between OOB and a full AAA OP?

The actual 1 AAA@1 against 3 planes, opening fire then no more vs
1 AAA@1 against 3 planes every round, preemptive fire.

For now, I’m still thinking the best way to get everything without too much unbalancing, is still the ugly 1/12 odds (1 on D12 or “1” on 1st D6 then “3” or less on the 2nd roll after this “1”) for every opportunity to roll some AAA dice.

Any prior territory: 1AAA attack to up to 3 planes at 1/12 odds on each.

Combat-zone: on first cycle, 1AAA get preemptive attack to up to 3 planes at 1/12 odds on each.
Second round and after: 1AAA still get regular (no more preemptive) roll against 3 planes at 1/12 odds.
No limits on the number of round.
That’s all.

IMO, it takes four round of battle to start outbalancing compare to OOB rule.

[Derek]

@Uncrustable:

@Cmdr:

I think the always always on AA was “Dogs of War” which was the first (that I know of) PC game of Axis and Allies - much like TripleA, but with a smart AI, better sound effects, better graphics and less configurability - it was also classic or their preset different rules like triple starting units, etc.

Revised, I think - it’s been a while, had a version of always on AA where each gun you flew over during combat move could fire at your planes.  It made the game needlessly complicated, in my opinion, whatever version it was in.  Why fly around France, instead of flying over the clouds and diving down to bombing distance when you get to your target???  Not to mention meticulously planning out your flight path to minimize danger each round get annoying as crud, cause you always got challenged by your opponent which, when playing online, essentially doubled play time.

That said, dont forget the average AA Gun costs the attacker 2 IPC (based on a 12 IPC strategic bomber) so if he has to fly over 3 of them to get to the target and 3 more to get home, that’s a 12 IPC loss to the attacker - on average.  Those AA Guns better cost some serious money to justify that kind of risk!  In my opinion.

in order for a bomber to have to fly over 3 aa there would have to be atleast 5-6 aa in 5-6 tts to create a ‘wall’ of aa 3 aa deep.
that is no matter what route the bomber takes it will have to fly over 3 aa

so lets say 6 aa guns X 6 ipc = 36IPC !!! 3x its damage value per turn!!!

[Jennifer]

@BJCard:

@Cmdr:

I think the always always on AA was “Dogs of War” which was the first (that I know of) PC game of Axis and Allies - much like TripleA, but with a smart AI, better sound effects, better graphics and less configurability - it was also classic or their preset different rules like triple starting units, etc.

Um, have you looked at Triplea and the old PC A&A recently?  Triplea has sounds that are eerily similar to the 1998 PC game… Better graphics?  Perhaps with the ‘explosions’ and wavy flags, but it was still just a map like Triplea…

You lost me on the ‘smart AI’ that was on that PC game…

I used the term smart AI compared to the Hasbro game and TripleA.  None of these are super computers, but Dogs of War was far superior at playing Axis and Allies.  Then again, I stopped using TripleA after Alpha 2 was replaced.  Good way to get familiar with the rules, but hardly what I would call “stimulating game play.”

---

Baron:

Strategic Bomber + Long Range Aircraft + Air Base

• Take off,
• Fly over AA Gun 1
• Fly over AA Gun 2
• Fly over AA Gun 3
• Fly over AA Gun 4 at target coordinates
• Return over AA Gun 3 (5th shot)
• Return over AA Gun 2 (6th shot)
• Return over AA Gun 1 (7th shot)
• Land
• Give pilot a hero’s welcome and buy him a new girl to sleep with every night in hopes of repopulating your nation with super pilots who are immune to AA Gun fire!

Cost for Germany: they have 6 guns, so technically 0, right?
Cost for Russia: 12 IPC since they have to buy the bomber first!

Just an example.  It would probably never arise, but you can see how things can get freaking INSANE with it.  Then of course there’s the “okay, so fly to where the Johnson’s house used to be before the fire, then go down to 7th avenue and make a right, then make an immediate left where the cow is - unless the cow isn’t there today, and when you get to the end of the road, make a u-turn and make a left down the ally where Bill was mugged last week, another hundred yards or so and you’ll be there!” Crud for flying around guns all day, only to have your opponent complain that you had to fly over one of his guns in some obscure territory your pilot should never have been flying in AA Gun range in, taking up another 2 or 3 days of online play so you can correct them because they failed to notice that territory A and sea zone B are connected.

It’s annoying.  Been there, done that.  Rather not go back to it, thanks. =^_^=  If you want to, more power too you, but I say if that’s the case, those AA Guns better cost 12 IPC minimum to compensate for the significant increase in potential losses to attackers and the nuissance of dealing with alternate flight paths.

[baron Münchhausen]

@Cmdr:

Baron:

Strategic Bomber + Long Range Aircraft + Air Base

• Take off,
• Fly over AA Gun 1
• Fly over AA Gun 2
• Fly over AA Gun 3
• Fly over AA Gun 4 at target coordinates
• Return over AA Gun 3 (5th shot)
• Return over AA Gun 2 (6th shot)
• Return over AA Gun 1 (7th shot)  That’s not possible, it is a friendly landing-zone.
• Land
• Give pilot a hero’s welcome and buy him a new girl to sleep with every night in hopes of repopulating your nation with super pilots who are immune to AA Gun fire! :-D

Cost for Germany: they have 6 guns, so technically 0, right?
Cost for Russia: 12 IPC since they have to buy the bomber first!

Just an example.  It would probably never arise, but you can see how things can get freaking INSANE with it.  Then of course there’s the “okay, so fly to where the Johnson’s house used to be before the fire, then go down to 7th avenue and make a right, then make an immediate left where the cow is - unless the cow isn’t there today, and when you get to the end of the road, make a u-turn and make a left down the ally where Bill was mugged last week, another hundred yards or so and you’ll be there!” Crud for flying around guns all day, only to have your opponent complain that you had to fly over one of his guns in some obscure territory your pilot should never have been flying in AA Gun range in, taking up another 2 or 3 days of online play so you can correct them because they failed to notice that territory A and sea zone B are connected.

It’s annoying.  Been there, done that. Rather not go back to it, thanks. =^_^=  If you want to, more power too you, but I say if that’s the case, those AA Guns better cost 12 IPC minimum to compensate for the significant increase in potential losses to attackers and the nuissance of dealing with alternate flight paths.

Wow! You take it seriously when you refute someone. :-)

Actually, I can see now that the maximum AAA 1 single plane can fly over in a Combat move is 4AAA. However, the maximum AAA attack if AAA are always active is 6 shots, since the StrB must land in a friendly-zone.

I agree all along with you with the rationalization behind AAA fire only in the battle-zone territory.
Planes are flying high and above clouds (out of reach from any AAA). But planes must get down below in low altitude when only near the target (within reach of any AAA in the combat-zone).

But I thought, in strategical board game perspective, it was funny to find a path to escape AAA fire to reach the main target.
I presume too much and maybe Uncrustable opinion and mine wasn’t so widespread.

Do you have any suggestion to upgrade the usefulness and interest in buying and developing strategies with AAA gun?

If I limit this HR revised to the combat-zone, do you see an interrest in it or already too overpowered?

Combat-zone: on first cycle, 1AAA get preemptive attack to up to 3 planes at 1/12 odds on each.

Second round and after: no more preemptive roll,  but 1 AAA still fire against 3 planes at 1/12 odds.
No limits on the number of round AAA can fire.
That’s all.

Here, 2 rounds of AAA firing vs 3 targets at 1/12 will be almost the same as 1 opening firing at 1/6 vs 3 targets.

So, on the 3rd round, you start with a slight advantage against plane vs OOB rule, if you kept all your AAA. And it will increase, if you kept AAA for further rounds.

If you forget the trouble of finding a 12 sides dice, what is your opinion Cmdr Jen?

[Guest]

If you guys want to balance the AA gun simply allow it to fire on one more plane. Then its a great buy.

Also try playing with AT guns. They attack at 1 and defend at 1, cost is 5 and move 1.

If enemy tank or mechinf is present in battle attack and defence is boosted to 2,3.

Target enemy tank and mec first, only if tank and mec is not present may the AT gun hit other units.

Any AT guns hit on 1 is distribiuted to a tank if this is possible (optional)

[Derek]

Your guys examples are completely off the wall

in order for a bomber to have to fly over 3 aa there would have to be atleast 6-9 aa in 6-9 tts to create a ‘wall’ of aa 3 aa deep.
that is, no matter what route the bomber takes it will have to fly over 3 aa

so lets say 6-9 aa guns X 6 ipc = 36IPC-54IPC !!! 3x-5x its damage value per turn!!!

Seriously how f’n stupid would a player have to be to fly over all the tts with AA guns only

Please come up with better examples to support your arguments

Also remember, 9 of 11 capitals with major ICs (including WUSA) border SZs
So really the only region on the board at setup where your guys’ scenario is even possible is Moscow

:roll:

[BJCard]

I used the term smart AI compared to the Hasbro game and TripleA.  None of these are super computers, but Dogs of War was far superior at playing Axis and Allies.  Then again, I stopped using TripleA after Alpha 2 was replaced.  Good way to get familiar with the rules, but hardly what I would call “stimulating game play.”

Well, who uses the AI in these games anyway?  The AI is poor in all A&A games, which is why you play other people.  Triplea supports this in multiple ways.

[Jennifer]

BJ,

The only AI I have lost to was the Dogs of War AI.  Granted, this was before I really learned how to play the game.  Heck, I’ve probably forgotten more strategies about Axis and Allies than that AI knew at this point, I don’t have time to run 6-9 concurrent games anymore. lol.

---

Balance AA, without creating situations that can get really ridiculous?

1. In opening fire the AA Gun gets 1 shot at each plane up to a maximum of 3 planes per AA Gun.  (EACH ROUND - Negated if you have at least 1 Tactical Bomber in the air.  Just like Destroyers negate Submarine Sneak Shots)
   &
2. There are no built in AA Gun defenses on complexes and bases.
   &
3. Add 1 AA Gun to the board for each Air Base, Naval Base and Minor Industrial Complex on the board, 2 AA Guns for each Major Industrial Complex on the board.
   &
4. AA Guns cost 6 IPC, same as a Tank.

[Derek]

Don’t see how tac bombers would negate AA guns
I would like the idea of tac bombers being able to target AA guns however
Tac bombers can target AA guns, but if so, then the AA guns can in turn target the Tac bomber that is targeting it (in effect defending itself)

I am 100% for eliminating built in AA.
And adding AA guns to the setup as you suggested Jen makes sense to me

[baron Münchhausen]

@Cmdr:

Balance AA, without creating situations that can get really ridiculous?

1. In opening fire the AA Gun gets 1 shot at each plane up to a maximum of 3 planes per AA Gun. �� (EACH ROUND - Negated if you have at least 1 Tactical Bomber in the air.� � Just like Destroyers negate Submarine Sneak Shots)
   &
2. There are no built in AA Gun defenses on complexes and bases.
   &
3. Add 1 AA Gun to the board for each Air Base, Naval Base and Minor Industrial Complex on the board, 2 AA Guns for each Major Industrial Complex on the board.
   &
4. AA Guns cost 6 IPC, same as a Tank.

First, you want to add many units on board which will modify the starting placement and the balance as well (thinking about UK).
In addition, this AAA will be movable instead of in-built and not strictly protecting a dedicated structure as was intended.
And, there is some rationalization to this, even you Com. Jen showed us picture of a fixed AA gun:

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-oQVDmueD-k4/TviOUJdzZUI/AAAAAAAACVc/S2n47pzqBzQ/s1600/3558172815_7f64b0b13f_z.jpg
That is the type of AA Gun I envision for city manufacturing defenses. � Notice that it is stationary, it cannot be moved but it can rotate, etc. � However, it’s not being hooked to a truck nor is it being hand carried to the front lines!

These fixed defensive positions around important IC and Base are heavyier and not intended to be mobile. Those structures (IC and Ab, NB) are vitals; in an historical way, no Powers will left them free target and undefended against aircrafts while constructing them.

Besides, if you had that much AAA popping up, how can we hope getting more AAA buying?

The more I read your proposition the more I’m surprise, because your increasing the cost and limiting the first strike of AAA. I don’t see how AAA becomes more interesting as such.

[baron Münchhausen]

@Uncrustable:

Your guys examples are completely off the wall

in order for a bomber to have to fly over 3 aa there would have to be atleast 6-9 aa in 6-9 tts to create a ‘wall’ of aa 3 aa deep.
that is, no matter what route the bomber takes it will have to fly over 3 aa

so lets say 6-9 aa guns X 6 ipc = 36IPC-54IPC !!! 3x-5x its damage value per turn!!!

Seriously how f’n stupid would a player have to be to fly over all the tts with AA guns only

Please come up with better examples to support your arguments

Also remember, 9 of 11 capitals with major ICs (including WUSA) border SZs
So really the only region on the board at setup where your guys’ scenario is even possible is Moscow

:roll:

Now it seems that active AA gun in CM and even always Active during NCM seems to be improving Germany and Russia mainly and Uk in India, maybe…

IMO, I don’t see a problem to increase the presence of AAA in European Theatre with active AA gun. 
However, I certainly limit the fly over AAA to only 1 shot@1 against 1 plane for each AAA (instead of 3).
I would keep 1AAA@1 preemptive strike for 3 planes to the combat-zone territory.
And the 5 IPCs cost.

Contrary to your opinion, I prefer the in-built AA gun: 1-for simplicity, 2-historical rationalization and 3- no modification to initial set up (my friends accept willfully minor changes (on units and game mechanics), but will strongly disagree about such a change on the set up.).

[baron Münchhausen]

Which 1 AAA is the strongest?

1-OOB: 1 single first strike @1 vs 3 planes (up to 1 attack max /plane) vs

2-AAA as a regular unit: unlimited attack @1 vs 1 plane and no preemptive? vs

3-AAA: unlimited regular strike @1 vs 2 planes, up to 2 rolls max/plane?

[atease]

This post is getting way too complicated.