AA.Org Official Alpha 3 Thread

Don’t forget all the Neutral countries in South America Jen, that’s another what… 9 territories? What 3 islands in the Med would Russia take?
This rule needs to be changed.

C

Well Jen, if UK/US has the type of air and naval power to support such an operation, this is surely a late-game type of situation.  Am I correct in that assumption?

So if Germany hasn’t even broken through the second layer of Russian territories, hasn’t the game pretty much been decided by this point?

First of all, it seems like Alpha+3 is changing as much as Alpha+2 did.  I just printed this up last week and I already see enough changes that I had to print it up again.  I wish they would settle on something and quit all the changes!
That being said, something does need to happen with this new Russian NO.  3 IPCs for each Axis and neutral territory in Europe (including Turkey)?  That is just way too much power for Russia.  Plus, it’s not very realistic.  I could see them getting points for Finland and Bulgaria, perhaps even Greece and Yugoslavia.  But TURKEY?!?  I imagine this also includes countries like Sweeden, Switzerland, Spain and Portugal.  Russia shouldn’t get NOs for any of those territories.
There’s another problem with this rule:  we are going on the assumption that Russia is taking these neutral territories from Axis powers.  However, the rule simply says “under Soviet control”.  So, theoretically, once the USSR is at war, it could attack neutral Turkey, which would turn all other strict neutrals Pro-Axis, and get a reward of 3 IPCs per turn for doing so.  Frankly, I think it is wrong to reward Russia for such an aggressive act which also makes it much harder for all the Allies (Axis getting Spain, Sweeden, Portugal, etc. basically for free).
After that, they could simply march into Greece, get 4 extra infantry plus another 3 IPC bonus.  Granted, this does follow the Pro-Allied Neutral rule and Russia is technically an Ally, but Greece was more pro-Britain, not pro-USSR.  It just seems wrong to me for Russia to accquire Greece like this.

If Larry Harris intends to keep this Russian NO in it’s current form, perhaps it will simply be to all of us to “house rule” this NO for our own games.  I’m certainly not going to give Russia 3 IPCs each round for occupying Turkey or Sweeden.

Hey Jen, that’s a VERY interesting idea.  Japan wouldn’t get much but a few worthless territories and six extra infantry, plus the chance to take a few undefended territories in central Soviet Union.  However, Germany would really get a boost.  Imagine 8 German infantry popping up in South America, not to mention an extra 20 infantry just for Spain, Sweeden and Turkey (assuming those haven’t been taken yet).  Also, 4 German infantry right close to Calcutta.  Imagine the large IPC jump in Germany’s economy.  I think they would stand to gain 14-16 more IPCs, minus whatever country the US/UK took of course.

As I often play Germany, I gotta say that is really cool.

@Cmdr:

I am also of the opinion that maybe Germany should get an NO for having the Neutrals, why should Russia get all the love?  Why is it a war torn Hungary can produce more for Russia than a Hungary that joined the Germans voluntarily without a shot fired can?  I know it’s racist, but arnt the Germans known for efficiency!?!  Just a thought.

Not really, the Nazi German war effort (production wise) was anything but efficient, by late 1941 they owned more of every resource except crude oil, and yet were significantly outproduced by Russia. Germany didn’t even have a single ‘war production’ chief until 1943 (Speer).

I’m beginning to think that the game should be evolving into Axis & Allies & Comintern, each with its own victory conditions. Heck, if there are going to be so many versions all the way up to Alpha+infinity, why not?

@Cmdr:

I can see the Americans and British being able to field at least a dozen if not a couple dozen planes by round 6, so it’s not really that late in the game.  These planes are already being made and sent to Russia anyway, otherwise Russia does fall so it’s not outof the question to have these planes available.

That’s a bit of an exageration, but I’ll give you that the Allies can have several planes in commission by then.  Then again if that’s the case, Japan will be having quite a bit of fun.  Just because your Japan was played to push all the through East Russia doesn’t mean the NO is unbalanced.  If Japan sees that the allies are intent on a KGF strat (as evidenced by heavy air builds by US on the East Coast), they should be focused on winning in the Pacific, not dicking around in Siberia.
But I disagree that those planes “will be sent to Russia anyway”.  That’s only necessary if Germany is doing a bottle-Russia up strategy.  If Germany is doing any other strategy, like some sort of balanced, methodical invasion of Russia, that won’t be necessary and will only be a waste of resources.
If Allies have that kind of air power, that quickly, then they certainly won’t be threatening Axis territory very much.

The only trouble point would be a German major complex in Norway, but then, that’s 10 less infantry Russia has to face and something the Germans are going to have to defend.  Without it, the Germans have no way to support Norway/Finland so that’s give me NOs for the Russians.

Yes, Norway is tough to hold.  It’s not impossible at all though, and an IC in Norway isn’t necessary.  If the Allies are pressuring the Germany navy hard, then they can just hole up in the Baltic.  2-4 transports there can keep a strong hold on Scandanavia, while threatening any Russian attempts to crawl north into Finland.  That small investment in German sea power will prevent Russia from ever “walking in” to empty Scandanavian territories.

Because the amount of resources that Russia would have to use to get through Germany’s defenses in Scandanavia would cause Moscow to fall.

@Cmdr:

@Alsch91:

Because the amount of resources that Russia would have to use to get through Germany’s defenses in Scandanavia would cause Moscow to fall.

Not really.  You need 1 Infantry to take Norway, Finland and Sweeden.  That’s hardly enough taken from Russia to cause Russia to fall. (Have the Americans and British clear the zones iwth aircraft and walk a dude in.)

Thats ofcourse if germany does not make any effort to stop them since it will take atleast 3 rounds for a guy from karelia to hit all 3, and since germany goes after the western allies and before russia, it makes it even more unlikely for this situation to occur.

Exactly.

Jen, your Germany was asleep at the wheel.

This sounds like abject insanity to me, you are making a claim that has no basis in reality. Yes you probably COULD do something like this, you COULD use massive allied air power to clear out true neutral states so the Soviets could walk in to get the territory and NO income, but why would you want to? You COULD use an allied fleet to open up the dradanells and pick up a Soviet infantrymen from the black sea and transport him over several turns to the coast of Italy and have in land in Sardinia, but why would you want to? Why would you want to go to all the trouble just to give the Soviets a slight IPC bump?
    Also, what kind of German players to you play against? How incompitent is/are you opponent(s) that they cant figure out how to keep things like this from happening? You have made a claim and havent brought enough specific evidence to support how this could happen in an actual game. Im not saying I dont see how something like you describe COULD happen, the letter of the rules say as much, what im saying is that the possiblity of it actually being a problem, or evening happening at all, are so small as to barely be worth a second thought.

No, typing things in Caps Lock dosnt help it make any more sense when it already has no bases in reality to begin with, it just makes it easier for people with vision problems to read it.  :-D

You are making claims of things you did with out any context of the games in which these things occured. Without the aid of the contex of the games in which these alleged things happened all you are effectively doing is typing ARGLE BARGLE BARGLE so everyone can read it clearly. You have not explained what any moves were prior to these evets, what turn they took place, what the other players situation or condition was, you are just making a claim based on an exploit of a rule you noticed, not proving a point or showing that this is a REAL game problem.