There is another way to win…

@Omega1759:

@Cmdr:

I have taken New Zealand and all of Australia from a J1 attack on Hawaii…don’t forget you can get to Queensland/New Zealand from there. (Or Central America for that matter.)

How do you manage to take the land on J1 with 2 infantry and 2 fighters on the land and only 1 transport in reach?

She didn’t say ON J1 she said FROM J1…meaning that J1 attack started the chain of events.  Use your head, it’s impossible to capture NZ on J1.

@shadowguidex:

@Omega1759:

Do you attack pearl harbor?

Yes you destroy the ships in the sea zone.  The two methods are to send all your ships including the battleship and carriers, or just send your planes, sub, and destroyer and keep youre capital ships away from an American counterattack.

Attacking Hawaii by land isn’t terribly important at this point in the game and I’d advise against it.  You won’t hold it this early and it doesn’t really set USA back much.  I usually capture Hawaii only after I have 5 VC and I get a nice opening.

You really need to go strong to bring your capital ships there. America can hit back with a lot of strength and the fighters / tacs on the carriers don’t have anywhere to land. I doubt you can bring enough there and be safe attacking the Phillipines and establishing a dominant position in the south pacific.

Sending only the small stuff after the fleet will result in the small stuff being destroyed on the next turn. Plus, you need planes to support this attack, where are they coming from and where do they land?

For being able to attack the prince of whales, the phillipines and borneo, my conclusion was that attacking pearl harbor was not the best thing to do. 33 IPC worth of units are not worth putting your ships out of position or losing precious subs, destroyers and potentially planes.

@shadowguidex:

@Omega1759:

@Cmdr:

I have taken New Zealand and all of Australia from a J1 attack on Hawaii…don’t forget you can get to Queensland/New Zealand from there. (Or Central America for that matter.)

How do you manage to take the land on J1 with 2 infantry and 2 fighters on the land and only 1 transport in reach? Are your planes moving 6 again?

She didn’t say ON J1 she said FROM J1…meaning that J1 attack started the chain of events.  Use your head, it’s impossible to capture NZ on J1.

It sounds like she took NZ or queensland on J2 after a J1 attack on Haiwai. This presumes she took the naval base (the land) on J1.

If she took Hawai on J2, then she could take NZ or queensland on J3… (not sure why the US would allow this to happen, but this is not clear!)

I am sorry if that is how it sounded.  I said from taking Hawaii you can take New Zealand and all of Australia (with a landing threat in Queensland immediately after taking Hawaii.)

In my game against Jmite, I did not take it on Japan 2.  I don’t think I actually took it until Japan 3, but it could have been Japan 4.  It’s been a while since I saw that specific game and I have played a lot more between then and now to boot.

If I can remember correctly, I brought everything to Pearl that could go.  Instead of taking hits to my waships, I lost planes and replaced them with planes that couldn’t go before due to carrier space.  I am speaking of the Fighter on Korea and the 2 Fighters, Tactical Bombers on Japan.  America does have 14 punch there, so it is not unexpected to have 3 hits on the defense of SZ 26.  Now, they almost certianly wont scramble the fighters on Hawaii!  So that goes down to 6 punch and one hit expected.  The 3 aircraft mentioned are more than necessary to replace losses.  (I’d say swap out the tacticals with the fighters as best you can.  So hits go to Tacticals and then you fly replacement fighters over.  Just for the extra defense.)

Purchases can be 3 transports, that gives you 8 ground forces to hit Hawaii with on Japan 2.

On Japan 3, you can hit New Zealand and/or Queensland if you like.

Makes more sense.

Going back to the main point: I still think that going after Haiwai is a bad idea. You lose the logistical advantage against the US and you risk being too weak to clear up the DEI.

@Cmdr:

I am sorry if that is how it sounded.  I said from taking Hawaii you can take New Zealand and all of Australia (with a landing threat in Queensland immediately after taking Hawaii.)

In my game against Jmite, I did not take it on Japan 2.  I don’t think I actually took it until Japan 3, but it could have been Japan 4.  It’s been a while since I saw that specific game and I have played a lot more between then and now to boot.

If I can remember correctly, I brought everything to Pearl that could go.  Instead of taking hits to my waships, I lost planes and replaced them with planes that couldn’t go before due to carrier space.  I am speaking of the Fighter on Korea and the 2 Fighters, Tactical Bombers on Japan.  America does have 14 punch there, so it is not unexpected to have 3 hits on the defense of SZ 26.  Now, they almost certianly wont scramble the fighters on Hawaii!  So that goes down to 6 punch and one hit expected.  The 3 aircraft mentioned are more than necessary to replace losses.  (I’d say swap out the tacticals with the fighters as best you can.  So hits go to Tacticals and then you fly replacement fighters over.  Just for the extra defense.)

Purchases can be 3 transports, that gives you 8 ground forces to hit Hawaii with on Japan 2.

On Japan 3, you can hit New Zealand and/or Queensland if you like.

Going back to the main point: I still think that going after Haiwai is a bad idea. You lose the logistical advantage against the US and you risk being too weak to clear up the DEI.

I send 2 FTR, 2 TAC, 1 STR, 1 SUB, 1 DD to Hawaii and kill off the American ships and possible scramblers.  I send the Carriers, Battleship, and escorts to Wake Island to pick up the planes.  If you lose the destroyer, you move another down as a blocker.  The carriers and battleship are safe.  USA goes from 9 Warships in the Pacific to 4.  USA needs to build Atlantic - at least a destroyer - to fend off the German subs.  Japan is in no danger of losing their fleet on USA1.

I’m not sure what your preferred strategy is, but what we’re doing on this thread is coming up with a strategy that fulfills the economic criteria to get the Axis on par with the Allies in IPC income.  If you’re a panzy “wait till round 4 to attack anyone” kind of player, then I assume you’re accustomed to losing as the Axis.  The Axis starts out with all the initiative and can set the Allies on their back foot from round one - why squander that and give the Allies lots of time to build and position unmolested.

You don’t need the fleet at Japan to clear the Dutch East Indies.  A J1 attack will render the Allies incapable of contesting them - ANZAC has two ships and Calcutta has 2 ships - your fleet off Shanghai and land based planes can handle the task.  You grab  up the DEI at your leisure.

I posted my detailed J1 strategy in this thread (how about you take a look), just expressing a preference for not attacking the Hawai sea zone.

Your fleet in Wake seems to be quite out of position.

Can you explain how you get the Phillipines with the rest of your navy?

@shadowguidex:

Going back to the main point: I still think that going after Haiwai is a bad idea. You lose the logistical advantage against the US and you risk being too weak to clear up the DEI.

I send 2 FTR, 2 TAC, 1 STR, 1 SUB, 1 DD to Hawaii and kill off the American ships and possible scramblers.  I send the Carriers, Battleship, and escorts to Wake Island to pick up the planes.  If you lose the destroyer, you move another down as a blocker.  The carriers and battleship are safe.  USA goes from 9 Warships in the Pacific to 4.  USA needs to build Atlantic - at least a destroyer - to fend off the German subs.  Japan is in no danger of losing their fleet on USA1.

I’m not sure what your preferred strategy is, but what we’re doing on this thread is coming up with a strategy that fulfills the economic criteria to get the Axis on par with the Allies in IPC income.  If you’re a panzy “wait till round 4 to attack anyone” kind of player, then I assume you’re accustomed to losing as the Axis.  The Axis starts out with all the initiative and can set the Allies on their back foot from round one - why squander that and give the Allies lots of time to build and position unmolested.

You don’t need the fleet at Japan to clear the Dutch East Indies.  A J1 attack will render the Allies incapable of contesting them - ANZAC has two ships and Calcutta has 2 ships - your fleet off Shanghai and land based planes can handle the task.  You grab  up the DEI at your leisure.

Can you explain how you get the Phillipines with the rest of your navy?

BB, SUB, DD from Shanghai move to Philippines, along with two TRN, and the CV and DD from Carolines.  More than enough.  The planes off your Carolines CV go to the Islands themselves along with 2 INF, 2 ART.  Odds of Sea Battle w/ Scrambler are 95%.  Odds of winning land battle w/o scrambler is 99%.

@shadowguidex:

Can you explain how you get the Phillipines with the rest of your navy?

BB, SUB, DD from Shanghai move to Philippines, along with two TRN, and the CV and DD from Carolines.  More than enough.  The planes off your Carolines CV go to the Islands themselves along with 2 INF, 2 ART.  Odds of Sea Battle w/ Scrambler are 95%.  Odds of winning land battle w/o scrambler is 99%.

Starts hanging together (thanks), is the Borneo transport covered by anything, or is it alone?

If you dont hit SZ 26, then there’s no point in hitting SZ 37, SZ 35, Philippines or Borneo either.  If hitting SZ 26 is bad, the others are worse!

@Cmdr:

If you dont hit SZ 26, then there’s no point in hitting SZ 37, SZ 35, Philippines or Borneo either.  If hitting SZ 26 is bad, the others are worse!

Hitting 26 can be bad if you need to commit ALL your fleet there (and becoming out of position). Shadow’s idea to go in with the small ships has some appeal, say:

1 sub
2 DD
2 fighters
2 tacs

Odds are 94% with scramble, losses of 28 IPC, causing losses of 52, that’s a differential of 24IPC. In this case, lose the sub, 1 DD and 1 plane, maybe 2 (leaving 1 block)

If no scramble,8 of losses against 33 IPC of damage caused, again IPC differential of 25…

Being in Wake is not too bad, can go to carolines from there and options become pretty open.

I kind of like his suggestion actually!

Hmm, wait, what happens if Haiwai does not scramble and if the US moves everything to Haiwai?

The Japanese fleet would be in a tough spot. No way of going back to Japan and the US fleet + planes can catch you whenever you decide to go. I guess you can consolidate in the Carolines, but the ships off the Phillipines are needed to help take India

@Omega1759:

Hmm, wait, what happens if Haiwai does not scramble and if the US moves everything to Haiwai?

The Japanese fleet would be in a tough spot. No way of going back to Japan and the US fleet + planes can catch you whenever you decide to go. I guess you can consolidate in the Carolines, but the ships off the Phillipines are needed to help take India

That is why I said to take the tactical bomber, then the fighters as casualties first, so you had FULL warships and a full compliment of planes.  I’ve yet to see America counter attack that, even with the fighters from Hawaii not scrambling.

I have done similar to the minimal invasion of SZ 26.  I have skipped Philippines, SZ 35 as well.  I just have not had success with them yet.  It always ended up that America trounced the Pacific, just earlier than normal.  Of course, we are talking Alpha 2 when I last did this, but there isn’t THAT much different in Alpha 3…one less NO for America on an almost permanent basis, but that’s not going to make up for the 20-40 extra IPC you give them for a pre-emptive attack, IMHO.  I did get lucky in that one game and caught my opponent with his pants down, taking out all of Australia early (round 4 I was done) and moving to SZ 39.  Took America a while to recover since i had the Aluetians, Midway, Wake, Hawaii, Jonah and all the original Australian territories eventually.

I’m not talking about leaving a bunch in 26. I’m saying attacking 26 with minimal fleet, 1 sub, 2 DD, 2 tac and 2 fighters. The carriers + a certain number of ships (at least 1 BB) stay back in 31. I want to attack the Phillipines, so there is no way I’m going in full throttle in 26!

The issue is what do you do if us moves everything in 26 on US1…

You can go off to carolinas, but you leave Japan open… Not good for ferrying troops on the mainland

@Cmdr:

@Omega1759:

Hmm, wait, what happens if Haiwai does not scramble and if the US moves everything to Haiwai?

The Japanese fleet would be in a tough spot. No way of going back to Japan and the US fleet + planes can catch you whenever you decide to go. I guess you can consolidate in the Carolines, but the ships off the Phillipines are needed to help take India

That is why I said to take the tactical bomber, then the fighters as casualties first, so you had FULL warships and a full compliment of planes.  I’ve yet to see America counter attack that, even with the fighters from Hawaii not scrambling.

I have done similar to the minimal invasion of SZ 26.  I have skipped Philippines, SZ 35 as well.  I just have not had success with them yet.  It always ended up that America trounced the Pacific, just earlier than normal.  Of course, we are talking Alpha 2 when I last did this, but there isn’t THAT much different in Alpha 3…one less NO for America on an almost permanent basis, but that’s not going to make up for the 20-40 extra IPC you give them for a pre-emptive attack, IMHO.  I did get lucky in that one game and caught my opponent with his pants down, taking out all of Australia early (round 4 I was done) and moving to SZ 39.  Took America a while to recover since i had the Aluetians, Midway, Wake, Hawaii, Jonah and all the original Australian territories eventually.

Yes, you are correct, full throtle (as you put it) SZ 26 requires the warships that cannot get there on Round 1, go to SZ 6 and go there on Round 2.

Shadow, looking forward to get your thoughts on what to do if US does not scramble 26 and moves everything to 26.

Also curious is the transport in Borneo is escorted or not. A lone Indian destroyer could take care of it (I don’t like losing transports, but at least that would be one dead destroyer)

@Omega1759:

Shadow, looking forward to get your thoughts on what to do if US does not scramble 26 and moves everything to 26.

Also curious is the transport in Borneo is escorted or not. A lone Indian destroyer could take care of it (I don’t like losing transports, but at least that would be one dead destroyer)

Yes the Borneo TRN is unescorted.  The British can send a DD or CA there to take it out if they choose to, but it’s worth it, and has already paid for itself.

If the Americans send full fleet to Hawaii and full defense the most they have is 5 FTR, 1 TAC, 1 CV, 1 BB, CA, 1 DD.  You can attack them on J2 with 4 TAC, 4 FTR, 1 BB, 2 CV, 1 STR, possibly a DD depending on your J1 choices in that battle (send 1 DD or two), and I’m thinking maybe J1 should be 2 TRN, 2 SUB just for this purpose, so you can also send in two SUB.  Japan is 92% to win without the 2 SUB and average 72 losses - and 99% to win with 49 losses with the two SUB.  If USA does this, then you have the threat of your two TRN there with 2 ART, 2 INF and attack.  USA probably won’t want to make this move since Japan can pounce.  If USA DOES make this move…do you capture Hawaii or keep the gameplan and go south to India J4?  Can Japan still capture India J4 with only 2-3 TRN…they’d need a LOT of aircraft on FIC at the end of J3.  Perhaps J2 if they planned to take Hawaii they could build 4 FTR to be in position for J3 FIC --> J4 India.  Hmm…

@shadowguidex:

@Omega1759:

Shadow, looking forward to get your thoughts on what to do if US does not scramble 26 and moves everything to 26.

Also curious is the transport in Borneo is escorted or not. A lone Indian destroyer could take care of it (I don’t like losing transports, but at least that would be one dead destroyer)

Yes the Borneo TRN is unescorted.  The British can send a DD or CA there to take it out if they choose to, but it’s worth it, and has already paid for itself.

If the Americans send full fleet to Hawaii and full defense the most they have is 5 FTR, 1 TAC, 1 CV, 1 BB, CA, 1 DD.  You can attack them on J2 with 4 TAC, 4 FTR, 1 BB, 2 CV, 1 STR, possibly a DD depending on your J1 choices in that battle (send 1 DD or two), and I’m thinking maybe J1 should be 2 TRN, 2 SUB just for this purpose, so you can also send in two SUB.  Japan is 92% to win without the 2 SUB and average 72 losses - and 99% to win with 49 losses with the two SUB.  If USA does this, then you have the threat of your two TRN there with 2 ART, 2 INF and attack.  USA probably won’t want to make this move since Japan can pounce.  If USA DOES make this move…do you capture Hawaii or keep the gameplan and go south to India J4?  Can Japan still capture India J4 with only 2-3 TRN…they’d need a LOT of aircraft on FIC at the end of J3.  Perhaps J2 if they planned to take Hawaii they could build 4 FTR to be in position for J3 FIC --> J4 India.  Hmm…

Must be missing something, can only bring in 2 Tac and 2 fighters to bear on the attack?!

Must be missing something, can only bring in 2 Tac and 2 fighters to bear on the attack?!

You have the four planes on the CVs at Wake Island that will land on Marshall Islands, and four new planes leaving Japan/Korea landing on the CVs.  8 Total.

@shadowguidex:

Must be missing something, can only bring in 2 Tac and 2 fighters to bear on the attack?!

You have the four planes on the CVs at Wake Island that will land on Marshall Islands, and four new planes leaving Japan/Korea landing on the CVs.  8 Total.

The 2 subs are key for this… Would be worthwhile to take Hawai then, if they do make the move (they would probably keep some planes to defend the homeland)

Can you call off the amphibious assault depending on what the US player decides to keep on the mainland?

India should be weak enough at that point to not be a huge issue yet (if Japan can cause enough damage to the US fleet to be quiet for a while!)