Spring 42 Balance Poll

I think axis is favorite but giving 3 inf to allies would be too much (1 more inf in Egy would be easily give advantage to allies).

We stopped playing because we thought the game too heavily favored the allies last summer. To fix we tested a bunch of national advantages and house rules. Here’s a list of what we now give Germany (and this is where many are going to think we’re insane)

-trade the tank with the artillery in africa
-one extra infantry in libya
-a extra sub in the med
-move the plane from Ukraine to Italy
-Allantic wall (Infantry and Art defend on a 3 in France, Germany and Norway)
-Jet Fighters - planes defend on a 5.

Seems excessive but we believe if Germany fails to take Egypt they can’t win. If they lose 3 planes right off the bat, they can’t win. The two national advantages hardly every come into play either.

Col.Stauffenberg, I think the Atlantic wall would be extremely excessive, the first 4 suggestions are one-of unit affects that would slightly tilt towards Germany.  Jet fighters as it was in 2nd edition helped but how many fighters would Germany have near the bitter end versus infantry and art?  3-4 fighers is a total +3, 4 on defense whereas a +1 for every infantry could be +20 or greater for total defense.

My suggestion would be for them to give you a bid when you play Germany, then you use Fortress Europe after truly understanding the ramifications of it.  Then when you crush them time after time……re-evaluate the need for any help for the Axis.  Our group has argued for a  bid of 5 IPCs for the allies though we have never played with a bid in '42 yet.

@Col.Stauffenberg:

Seems excessive but we believe if Germany fails to take Egypt they can’t win. If they lose 3 planes right off the bat, they can’t win. The two national advantages hardly every come into play either.

There are a lot of attacks on round 1 that if go wrong can seriously tilt the game either side besides those you listed:

• Russia losing on Ukraine or West Russia
• UK failing to retake Egypt
• Japan losing on SZ52 or China or Buryatia or losing a capital ship

I usually play with a 1 inf German bid in Africa.

I agree with the list of risky battles that in case of the attacker getting diced seriously alters the game being:

USSR:
Any western attack (WR/Ukraine/Norway)

Germany:
Egypt (including BB vs destroyer for amphib landing)
SZ2 (loosing air and leaving the BB in the atlantic is a serious blow for Germany)
Gibraltar cruiser (loosing 2 G figs here is also a disaster)

UK
Egypt counter
Baltic navy (don’t loose air here either)

Japan
SZ52
Bury
China

US

• can’t really loose the game on first round dice, however although a sz52 counter can go very bad if attempted.

The game as I see it is balanced, but with more early round risks on the axis side, that is why I prefer an extra inf in Libya

@Hobbes:

There are a lot of attacks on round 1 that if go wrong can seriously tilt the game either side besides those you listed:

• Russia losing on Ukraine or West Russia
• UK failing to retake Egypt
• Japan losing on SZ52 or China or Buryatia or losing a capital ship

-That’s why we took the plane out of Ukraine and moved it to Italy. Ukraine shouldn’t be so decisive - it can be as bad for Rus as Ger.
-If UK retakes Egypt on round 1, it’s game over for the axis. Germany’s going to be too broke.
-those aren’t game ending for Japan since they can get away with murder, but regardless of what happens to Japan on round 1, they should be able to take care of their priorities. Of course there has been a perfect storm of disaster for Japan, but that doesn’t happen too often.

@Hobbes:

@Col.Stauffenberg:

Seems excessive but we believe if Germany fails to take Egypt they can’t win. If they lose 3 planes right off the bat, they can’t win. The two national advantages hardly every come into play either.

There are a lot of attacks on round 1 that if go wrong can seriously tilt the game either side besides those you listed:

• Russia losing on Ukraine or West Russia
• UK failing to retake Egypt
• Japan losing on SZ52 or China or Buryatia or losing a capital ship

Shouldn t we also add Germany losing

• both planes in SZ2?
• failing to invade AES?

Definitely :)

@Zhukov44:

Agreed that Germany takes a whole lot of risks G1, but I think considering R1 and UK1, Allies are exposing themselves even more.  SZ15 and Egy can be really dicey early in the game, and Ukraine and West Russia can both be decisive.  An extra inf to Lib is massive imo because it can make a UK1 Egy counter risky or potentially disastrous.

Whichever side is favored, first round dice will always be more significant than bids.

Exactly. But Germany has the most potential game ending round 1 fights. If they only loses 1 plane and take Egypt with at least 3 pieces, and take West Russia and don’t get hammered in Ukraine, they’re in business. It got to the point in our games where we would start over after disasterous German first turns, even though we weren’t spreading ourselves too thin. The axis have been winning the majority of our games but it’s more even. Whoever thinks allies need a bid are not playing them aggressively enough.

Oh I think the allies are normally played plenty aggressively in the games I see against Fortress Europe.  Using Fortress Europe, I have seen Germany have a poor (not terrible but poor) round 1 and still win.  Taking Egy with 3 pieces (3 land pieces or including air?) is a luxury for Germany, really, on average, Germany ought to lose 2 pieces and losing 3 or 1 is not that statistically unlikely.

I certainly will agree that Germany does have to take many risks with some high value pieces versus other high value pieces.  I always dread rolling Germany1, I just calm myself knowing that these battles have to be fought and it will be what it will be.  I have never been diced badly as Germany.

Now Russia1 seems to be a game swinger for me.  I have lost on Russia1 by taking 11 hits from the Germans and won as the Germans on R1 by inflicting defeat in Ukr and massive causalities in Wru.

It would be interesting to figure out a variation of AA where the rolls could be a bit more bell-curved.  It would be cumbersome but a system where groups of dice were averaged is one way.

Russia is next in line for those game deciding round 1 fights. We’ve had games were they’ve got 1 hit the first attack on WRus and Ukr and suffered something like 8 casualties. Germany can just steamroll them at that point.

UK isn’t affected first round that much. It takes at least couple rounds of heavy casualties and low income to do them in. I’ve seen UK be very effective with only 3 trans.

Japan and US are hardly ever under any threat. It’s up to them to seal the deal.

Saw this and thought about it….I think the Allies are at a disadvantage.  I’ve mentioned it in other posts, but the German sub in SZ8 is, IMO, the biggest game changer.  If they take out the American fleet in G1, the allies are in deep poop.  I would love to see a DD to balance it out, but would love to see a Japan and US sub added in the Pacific.  One for each doesn’t do it for me.

What do you do to SZ 2 in order to achieve your 50% battle off of US?

@Mallery29:

Saw this and thought about it….I think the Allies are at a disadvantage.� I’ve mentioned it in other posts, but the German sub in SZ8 is, IMO, the biggest game changer.� If they take out the American fleet in G1, the allies are in deep poop.� I would love to see a DD to balance it out, but would love to see a Japan and US sub added in the Pacific.� One for each doesn’t do it for me.

That isn’t a game changer. I assume you mean attacking both SZ10 and SZ2. Without the sub, the odds on SZ2 are 62% for G, while attacking SZ10 you have 50% odds. Which means that the combined odds of both attacks to succeed are (62/100 * 50/100) giving you 31% odds of sinking both the UK and US fleets. If you’re counting on those odds, than you’re just gambling.

Even if you sink both fleets I wouldn’t consider it a game changer. There’s plenty of times where the Allies won’t land on Europe/Africa on round 1, depending on the situation.

If you just attack sink the US fleet, that is actually even better for the Allies. The US lose 26 IPC worth but keep the UK Battleship and transport or 27 IPC.

I understand lots of people do the attack on the BB…I don’t…my typical German move is like this (w/ assumption Russian sub defending BB, West Russia has fallen, and Ukraine was crippled, but not taken…however, if Ukraine was taken, this only affects the use of 1 fighter. If Ukraine wasn’t attacked, even better). Have seen Norway or Belorussia attack, but I think the odds are bad for Russia to take 3 battles, so something has to give.
G1 Buy: 3inf, 1 sub, 5 tanks
SZ8 sub to American fleet. 
Bomber, Balkan fighter, UKR fighter (if avail), Libya inf/tank, S. Europe tank/inf invade Egypt…BB should (God willing) wipe out DD.
French and German fighter to take out Cruiser.
Norway 2inf/fighter, 2 Belorussia inf, 1 E. Europe fighter to Karelia.
Combats occur.  Egypt, Karelia fall. IPC 42.  Expected losses: 2inf in Egypt, 1inf Karelia, 1 fighter to cruiser. 50% chance of sub success (sorry, I’m a black and white guy…either the cruiser will kill me or it won’t).
NCM:  Position DD one SZ out, possibly blocking Norway or SZ7 (so two SZ out). Either leave trans or move one out if I move DD two out.  (Realizing these will be sacked, but sack worth it if Brit planes have to spread, and esp. if DD can hit on D).
Move 2Germany inf to France, 1 German inf, all tanks to E.Europe.  Abandon front line @ Ukraine and Belorussia, leaving 1 inf each. Move Balkans to E. Europe (if not used to retake Ukraine).  Move S. Europe inf to France, move art to Balkans.  Egypt Bomber, and 2 fighters land in Libya, Algeria art moves to Libya to defend planes. 1 or 2 fighters that attacked Cruiser move to France, 1 Karelia plane to Germany, the other to France.  I’m mentally moving everything so I hope that did it.  Place 2inf in Germany, 1 Sub Baltic, 4 tanks Germany, and 1inf/tank in S.Europe.  This sets up with the DD, trans, Belorussia, Ukraine, Norway (assuming Brits dropped additional support…), and possibly Karelia being attacked.  Algeria WILL NOT being invaded due to 5 fighters and a Bomber able to wipe out a UK BB and US Cruiser (if sub failed). G2 will be 4inf, 1 sub, 4tanks, 1art.  Med Trans will pick up tank/inf from S. Eurpoe and use BB to eliminate TransJordan (1 IPC).  2 Egypt tanks split acquiring 4 Africa IPCs. E. Europe staging ground retakes Ukraine and Belorussia and Karelia (if req’d) at minimal cost using Bomber and Germany fighter.
NCM Libyan Planes to France/Germany, Bomber and fighter land in E.Europe.  All purchased units will be placed in Germany.  I should be at 47 IPC at this point (Karelia/W. Russia cancel out), if Norway fell, then I’ll be down to 45.  2 Germany inf to France, 5 tanks to E. Europe.  I will spread the subs prior to placing, but I expect them to try to hit something, and when they do, it will cost them…from here on out, its lots of (inf, a fighter(or bomber), and 3 tanks ). I’ll fortify Germany/France/E.Europe and trade punches on the Russian lines.  I do this because I know on J2 Burtiya and US Asia has fallen, and if there isn’t a complex out there, I guarantee India is due in two turns.  If an IB on UK opens up, good night, game over, drive home safely…

@Mallery29:

I understand lots of people do the attack on the BB…I don’t…my typical German move is like this (w/ assumption Russian sub defending BB, West Russia has fallen, and Ukraine was crippled, but not taken…

Russia has 90% odds on Ukraine on R1, which means that Germany cannot realistically expect for Ukraine to survive. You can also attack both SZ2 and Egypt (with 2 INF, 1 ART, 1 ARM, 1 FTR) both with 90% odds.

G1 Buy: 3inf, 1 sub, 5 tanks
SZ8 sub to American fleet. 
Bomber, Balkan fighter, UKR fighter (if avail), Libya inf/tank, S. Europe tank/inf invade Egypt…BB should (God willing) wipe out DD.
French and German fighter to take out Cruiser.
Norway 2inf/fighter, 2 Belorussia inf, 1 E. Europe fighter to Karelia.
Combats occur.  Egypt, Karelia fall. IPC 42.  Expected losses: 2inf in Egypt, 1inf Karelia, 1 fighter to cruiser. 50% chance of sub success (sorry, I’m a black and white guy…either the cruiser will kill me or it won’t).

Everything OK, but why attack SZ10? Send the submarine to SZ1 instead and you’ll sink the UK transport for sure (which counts more since the UK is the one who can pressure Germany the easiest).

NCM:  Position DD one SZ out, possibly blocking Norway or SZ7 (so two SZ out). Either leave trans or move one out if I move DD two out.  (Realizing these will be sacked, but sack worth it if Brit planes have to spread, and esp. if DD can hit on D).
Move 2Germany inf to France, 1 German inf, all tanks to E.Europe.  Abandon front line @ Ukraine and Belorussia, leaving 1 inf each. Move Balkans to E. Europe (if not used to retake Ukraine).  Move S. Europe inf to France, move art to Balkans.  Egypt Bomber, and 2 fighters land in Libya, Algeria art moves to Libya to defend planes. 1 or 2 fighters that attacked Cruiser move to France, 1 Karelia plane to Germany, the other to France.  I’m mentally moving everything so I hope that did it.  Place 2inf in Germany, 1 Sub Baltic, 4 tanks Germany, and 1inf/tank in S.Europe.  This sets up with the DD, trans, Belorussia, Ukraine, Norway (assuming Brits dropped additional support…), and possibly Karelia being attacked.  Algeria WILL NOT being invaded due to 5 fighters and a Bomber able to wipe out a UK BB and US Cruiser (if sub failed).

I love just sending the transports to be sunk later and land 4 US units on Africa on US1.

G2 will be 4inf, 1 sub, 4tanks, 1art.  Med Trans will pick up tank/inf from S. Eurpoe and use BB to eliminate TransJordan (1 IPC). 2 Egypt tanks split acquiring 4 Africa IPCs.

Sorry? You’re assuming UK counterattack on Egypt? LOL. It is a standard Allied UK1 as well, even if Germany has 2-3 units there to attack with 3 INF, 1 FTR and 1 BMR and even send the cruiser for the land shot, if necessary.

E. Europe staging ground retakes Ukraine and Belorussia and Karelia (if req’d) at minimal cost using Bomber and Germany fighter.
NCM Libyan Planes to France/Germany, Bomber and fighter land in E.Europe.  All purchased units will be placed in Germany.  I should be at 47 IPC at this point (Karelia/W. Russia cancel out), if Norway fell, then I’ll be down to 45.

40/41. Forget about those 4 IPCs on Africa.

2 Germany inf to France, 5 tanks to E. Europe.  I will spread the subs prior to placing, but I expect them to try to hit something, and when they do, it will cost them…from here on out, its lots of (inf, a fighter(or bomber), and 3 tanks ). I’ll fortify Germany/France/E.Europe and trade punches on the Russian lines.  I do this because I know on J2 Burtiya and US Asia has fallen, and if there isn’t a complex out there, I guarantee India is due in two turns.  If an IB on UK opens up, good night, game over, drive home safely…

Again assuming that the Soviets will conveniently leave their 6 INF on Buryatia to be destroyed on J2. And India should be conquered at J2-3 actually for Japan to build an IC there as quickly as possible.

IB on UK? You the Germans conquering UK? LOL again. Whatever, the Allied playing you are described can be resumed to 1 word: unexperienced.

Russia has 90% odds on Ukraine on R1, which means that Germany cannot realistically expect for Ukraine to survive. You can also attack both SZ2 and Egypt (with 2 INF, 1 ART, 1 ARM, 1 FTR) both with 90% odds.

You say 90%, but they will not be left with much if they take UKR.

Sorry? You’re assuming UK counterattack on Egypt? LOL. It is a standard Allied UK1 as well, even if Germany has 2-3 units there to attack with 3 INF, 1 FTR and 1 BMR and even send the cruiser for the land shot, if necessary.

where do I assume UK countering Egypt?  I never said they would. I said my 2 tanks remaining in Egypt since I lost the inf would take 4 IPCs in Africa.

Again assuming that the Soviets will conveniently leave their 6 INF on Buryatia to be destroyed on J2. And India should be conquered at J2-3 actually for Japan to build an IC there as quickly as possible.

Not a big fan of ICs. While I agree and understand it’s purpose, I like pulling Russian troops off the line to look East.  If UK didn’t build an IC, I agree J2 could be possible.  But I like pushing to the Russian Outer defense perimeter.

IB on UK? You the Germans conquering UK? LOL again. Whatever, the Allied playing you are described can be resumed to 1 word: unexperienced.

Where did I say conquer UK?  The goal is to reduce the IC to rubble. But that’s if I don’t need the Bomber to do something else…it’s a “if bored” statement.