Sealion: win-win or a dead end?

@rock`n:

why someone “must” buy transports as germany? i agree with you that the UK has to be prepared for a landing. but, why it is for germany a greater benefit when england is well protected? this logic seems strange to since you have to invest more to take the UK. and if not doing so england already has its material ready to land, right?
and maybe you win on G2, at what costs? loosing an entire airforce to gain 30 IPCs??? that is a suicide-run in the long term, imho.

point 1: ok,
point 2: maybe, only IF winning,
point 3: see point 2,
point 4: only afterwards,
point 5: really? what if the USA gives a F*** to do so and goes directly into italy?
point 6: actually not

You’re points are all too short sighted. Losing your entire air force to eliminate the English player completely, along with gaining money and ground to make naval strikes, is worth it in the long run.

Point 5: Well if America doesn’t give a F*** then you get a victory city, money and get to keep the English player out of the game
Point 6: Without the English, your navy doesn’t have any deterrents besides America, and if they’re not at war then yes, you’re navy is free to act where it wants.

@rock`n:

point 1: barbarossa should start at latest on G2, so nothing about it with “much quicker”,
point 2: which is therefor well defended, not to get in with 8 troops and58 planes…,
point 3: how???
point 4: only 8, moscow is not nearby the baltic sea…well…

Point 1:You’re right, it will happen either way.
Point 2:The Russians will not have a significant force in Leningrad after 1 turn, unless they abandon, Belarus, East Poland, and the Baltic states, which means you’ll just have that much of a bigger force from Poland, Finland, and you’re amphibious attackers.
Point 3:The British are forced to spend only on England, which means not purchasing units for Africa, and possibly abandoning Taranto to defend the English Channel.
Point 4:Doesn’t matter where Moscow is, you are able to move ground units directly from Germany into Leningrad, saving you 4 spaces. It makes it that much quicker to get into Moscow.

It is neither a dead end nor a win-win, it depends on too many factors. However, it isn’t an automatic loose to invade England, especially if you actually take England, then you’re in a good position onwards. I’ve also seen absolutely nothing to indicate it is a loose strategy.

So, while I don’t think Sealion is a needed strategy, it is a neeed build process G1. For many of the same reasons outlined in the previous posts.
If you show your hand in G1 and signal clearly a Russian invasion - England will run wild and South Africa is effectively lost for Italy as I see it. If you at least threaten invasion, England has to plan accordingly and all things equal, Italy will have easier time in Africa/Med.

Taking England offers large tactical advantage in threathening the USA and provide additional income for the Russian campaign. Russia usually needs to play defensive as well, so even with a Sealion they can’t push far enough into Germany at the risk of spreading too thin and allowing the invetable invasion to just run over them.

USA will have to react to England’s capture or be push right out of European theatre thus potentially giving Japan more free reigns. Effectively Sealion forces the USA to split resources in a much higher degree than otherwise, something Japan usually will benefit from.

And if not doing a Sealion the transports can still be used in the Russia push.

I almost always build transports on G1. As said before, if you don’t do it, then the UK has its hands free to buy whatever he wants and can threaten a lot of Axis possesions from the start. Also it will make Italy very weak, because of Saf, Med Fleet/Airforce and expeditionary forces landing in Morrocco or other African lands.

If I build two or three trannies I force UK to build infantry, which limits their movement a LOT. Also makes life for Italy more pleasant. If I decide not to Sealion I can use those trannies to attack Karelia, Baltics or even Leningrad. Even after that I can use those trannies to reinforce the Eastern Front faster with Art and Inf. And the UK always needs to keep an eye on that fleet of yours, so can’t empty the UK. Or they must spend quite some resources to destroy your Baltic Fleet, in which case they don’t use that power against Italy or some landing.

@rock`n:

okay, killofzee, xandax and jimmyhat: can anyone of you outline how you would buy, move, fight etc.?

til today i have not seen a strategy of winning this game, only a strategy - if you like to call this way - of taking london. about what happenes afterwards just the assumption that russia will definitely fall. but how???

Well, you assume Russia will fall if you go in G1 and will win the game.
There is no deeper meaning, no hidden pitfalls, no philosophical discussion or other such elements. It’s pretty much a text book opening and plenty of strategies on this forum tell about it.
Mobilize to take England is a strategy. If you want the tactical play-by-play per turn,  then I will not give you a play-by-play of each turn from 1 to 7 simply because it is irrelevant and each move can be questioned when having the perfect information with “But why did England not do X in turn 1, so you couldn’t do Y in turn 5”. Such discussions never serve anything. It is the overall picture that we’re talking.

It is literally simple enough. Taking England does not loose the war.
The strategy is simple.
If wanting to do Sealion - do it in G2 or G3 if possible. If not wanting to do Sealion, don’t.

It is your claim that it is an automatic loss that’s the strange bit because I’ve never once seen anything to say it is an automatic loss. It all hinges on that you can win taking Russia without taking England, but that does in no way, shape or form, infer that taking England means you can’t win.
You’re free to believe it if you want, but a belief does not make it true for anybody else.

@rock`n:

and: the first two turns, britain has to prepare against sealion anyway. always for two turns minimum. not earlier than UK2 it would become obvious if germany goes east or west. ;)

Seeing as you have no transport, have shown that you wish to move into Russia (possible even building the Romanian factory)- there’s no reason to defend England for two turns minimum.
Buy some navy and buy some planes to rule the sea, buy some troops in South Africa. Take Norway or Denmark after a few rounds of navy just to disrupt. Fly planes to Russia to defend.
No need to spend all your IPCs on infantry for two rounds. If England does this (buys infantry) regardless of Germany move in your games, well - then I understand why England is ignored by you because then they truly set themselves up to be irrelevant in the European scene.
If Germany starts buying transports at turn 3 or 4, it’s easy enough to build up infantry at that time after the transport purchase - unless England already rules the sea and air.
And if you wain until turn 6 or 7 or later - there’s a large possibility USA will have all but contained Japan enough that they can start fortify England with planes or put out a navy to scare off any invasion fleet or move into the Med.

@rock`n:

@Xandax:

USA will have to react to England’s capture or be push right out of European theatre thus potentially giving Japan more free reigns. Effectively Sealion forces the USA to split resources in a much higher degree than otherwise, something Japan usually will benefit from.

“potentially”…there you have it. but not really. the one way or another, london will fall soon back to allied´s hands and therefor is not this much needed to get this done. even to deny a german recapture it is only needed to take or block denmark (italy left aside here).

Everything is potential in this game. It’s potential you’ll take Russia without Sealion and it’s only potential that London will “fall soon back” as well.
And even if London is retaken, you’ve forced enough dedication of resources not used elsewhere. As said - getting the USA out of the Pacific is a major boon for Japan. The USA going all-in in the Pacific is hard on Japan. Just as USA going all-in in Europe, is hard on Germany/Italy. Splitting up the US benefits both Axis sides very much.

I’m not here to convince you to do Sealion, I’m here to challenge your notion that it is automatic loss for Axis.

It’s a dead end.  But you have to threaten it.

Unless they do something stupid.

Well obviously every game is different, so all you’re going to get is generalities from me.  After a successful Sealion I like to leave my fleet in the north sea and invade the arctic ocean so that I can reach Novgorod and save Norway/finland from the russians.  I will go through the baltic if I can hit the Russian bb in the process.  G4 is the round after the fall of England, usually my fleet is consolidating in the northsea, bringing some remaining tanks from England back to Europe.

I think the biggest thing to keep Germany alive is your G4 purchase.  Most likely you’re going to need a ftr or 2 that you lost over England, also a dd to block the US fleet when the time is right.  Everything else should go towards armor with perhaps 4 inf.  This purchase means that when Russia advances into Europe you already will have a nice counter punch. G5 and on build inf.  If Russia lunges too far into Europe, count a win for Germany, you can land in novogorod and beat his army back to Mosocow.  This happened in one of my games, he threw 8 armor and a bunch of inf into Yugo.  We traded the balkans for a while and he put a heavy threat on NItaly, but my Germ army was marching to moscow and captured it.

I also tend to get art early for Germany, I’ll actually stack more art than inf in my lead stack.  Thats because in later rounds, when I have novgorod from my trns fleet I can build inf there and mechs in Germany to use the artillery bonus.

Lastly, when you approach Moscow you might find the need to switch to a southerly axis to capture Stalingrad before hitting Moscow.  This is where mech inf are really going to come in handy, and perhaps an Italian can opener or two.

Rock’n’Roll, on my first turn, I buy three transports, 1 sub, and 1 inf. I destroy the entire North Atlantic Fleet, Capture France, and move 15+ inf on the front line.

Second turn: If England builds 10 inf and does Taranto, i invade England with 3 tanks, 4 inf, and 1 art. I also send 3 fighters, 3 tact bombers, and 1 strat bomber. That’s a total combat value of 44. The English would have a combat value of (10 inf @ 2 + 4 3 fighters @ 4) 32. I also have naval bombardment. This means England MUST abandon Taranto and move to sz 112 to prevent a G2 Sea-lion. If the English DID block Sea-lion than I simply invade Russia. If Leningrad is heavily defended with “20 infantry plus 1 or 2 artillery, maybe a tank and 2 fighters and a tactical,” than #1 I land in Vyborg and allow for a PENTA(?)* attack into Leningrad on Turn 3, and #2 I Send armor and mechs in south Russia to capture the more valuable territory. So if I take Leningrad on turn 3, that only leaves 3 turns to get to Russia itself. I will also be able to ferry more units in directly from Germany into Lenningrad for more Firepower in Russia.

*My FIVE pronged attack will come from:
1. My main force in the Baltic States (9 inf, 4 art) Combat value = 21
2. The 3 tanks, 4 inf, and 1 art from England which I landed in Vyborg in G2  (C. V. = 16)
3. 6 inf from Finland to Karelia (Combat value = 6)
4. An amphibious assault with the transports, picking up units from Germany and moving directly into Leningrad, could be a combo of different units, 4 inf 4 art most likely (C. V. = 16) Plus Naval bombardment.
5. The remaining Luftwaffe, 3 fighters, 3 tac bombers, 1 strat bomber (C.V. 25)
Total Combat Value (21 + 16 + 6 + 16 + 25) = 84 Almost unstoppable
So if and when the Leningrad garrison is destroyed, it’s a clear path to Russia. I don’t care if my navy (which I only invested 27 IPCs in) is stuck in the Baltic sea. That’s all I want from it.

BTW i am NOT playing with the Alpha setup, i am playing with the OOB setup

Every game I have played that someone did not at least threaten Sea Lion turned into a loss for the Axis.  The UK can just get up too much no good is they feel zero pressure.  The consequences for Italy are too severe.  Funny thing is almost every game where Sea Lion was pulled off successfully by Germany resulted in an Axis loss also.

The only time I won a game in which I Sea Lioned was when I also pulled off a J3 India crush as well.  My opponent who is normally pretty good and probably a little better player than me played a poor game that day.  By knocking out both UK’s I was able to put enough victory city pressure on both sides of the board, combined with swining the IPC advantage to Axis.

@Frank:

Every game I have played that someone did not at least threaten Sea Lion turned into a loss for the Axis.  The UK can just get up too much no good is they feel zero pressure.  The consequences for Italy are too severe.  Funny thing is almost every game where Sea Lion was pulled off successfully by Germany resulted in an Axis loss also.

The game is difficult enough for Axis.
That’s exactly why it’s bad to show your hand in G1 and not at least threaten Sealion.

I tried to say simple, I hope you can understand （by Chinese boy）

this is by google translate……
Germany want sea lions, must make the Navy.

Countermeasures:
SZ91 cruiser, back SZ110
Gibraltar fighters, returned to London
make 1 carrier (cannon fodder) + 2 tank or 4 infantry or 1cruiser (not recommended)

United States make 5 transport at SZ101，the Pacific Fleet SZ101 collection!

Because the strength of the Mediterranean fell, SZ98 Navy -> SZ81
Cairo garrison, down to the AES.
Indian Navy, SZ76 collection
If Italy does not occupy Cairo, Fleet convergence in SZ91
If the Italian occupation of Cairo, all of the counterattack. Italy’s attack only once.

U.S. fleet at SZ101, If Japan does not attack USA， Germany Can’t defense the Counter attack ，from  USA army.
it will lose strategic initiative of german sea lion was failed，the eastline will be conterattacked by the Soviet Union
If the  Japan Fleet go east, Calcutta security, the British fleet can Attack Italy
If Germany want Barbarossa G2 , but the fleet did not use, waste PIC
For the U.S., the construction of 5 Transport have strategic significance. Atlantic、Pacific, they can be used.

so, I always strongly oppose the German go sea lions!

～～～～～～～～～～～～～～～～～～～～～～～～～～～～～
我尽可能说的简单，希望你们能看懂
德国想海狮，必须生产舰队。英国在之后针对行动。

对策：
SZ91的巡洋舰，回到SZ110
直布罗陀的战斗机，回到本土
生产1航母（炮灰）+2坦克or4步兵or1巡洋舰（不推荐）

美国东海岸建造5个运输船，太平洋舰队SZ101集合！

因为地中海实力下降，SZ98的海军——>SZ81
开罗的守军，往下，到AES。
印度海军，SZ76集合
如果意大利不占领开罗，舰队在SZ91汇合
如果意大利占领开罗，全部对的反攻。意大利的攻击只有一次。

美国的舰队移动，如果日本不管，德国海狮失败后迅速灭亡。
如果日本东进，加尔各答安全，英国的舰队可以打意大利
德国如果想巴巴罗萨，但是舰队没有用，浪费PIC
而对于美国，建造5个运输船有战略意义。大西洋、太平洋，都可以使用。

所以，我极力反对德国海狮！

@KillOFzee:

Rock’n’Roll, on my first turn, I buy three transports, 1 sub, and 1 inf. I destroy the entire North Atlantic Fleet, Capture France, and move 15+ inf on the front line.

Second turn: If England builds 10 inf and does Taranto, i invade England with 3 tanks, 4 inf, and 1 art. I also send 3 fighters, 3 tact bombers, and 1 strat bomber. That’s a total combat value of 44. The English would have a combat value of (10 inf @ 2 + 4 3 fighters @ 4) 32. I also have naval bombardment. This means England MUST abandon Taranto and move to sz 112 to prevent a G2 Sea-lion. (etc)

If you buy 3 transports and a sub, and your dice don’t go perfectly well, you can expect the UK to come and wipe out your fleet and transports, and then the sealions can stay in the zoo ;)
(and yes, then there won’t be any Taranto, but if japan choses J1, the USA can take care of the italians)

(Also, UK can bring an INF + tank from Canada for additional defence)

@special:

If you buy 3 transports and a sub, and your dice don’t go perfectly well, you can expect the UK to come and wipe out your fleet and transports, and then the sealions can stay in the zoo ;)
(and yes, then there won’t be any Taranto, but if japan choses J1, the USA can take care of the italians)

(Also, UK can bring an INF + tank from Canada for additional defence)

Well, if my dice don’t go “perfectly well” I still will likely win. Even if i only have 1 unit left in England, that’s fine by me. And why would the Japanese chose to attack on J1…If the Germans have London, than I will wait as long as possible to keep the U.S. out of the war.

@KillOFzee:

@special:

If you buy 3 transports and a sub, and your dice don’t go perfectly well, you can expect the UK to come and wipe out your fleet and transports, and then the sealions can stay in the zoo ;)
(and yes, then there won’t be any Taranto, but if japan choses J1, the USA can take care of the italians)

(Also, UK can bring an INF + tank from Canada for additional defence)

Well, if my dice don’t go “perfectly well” I still will likely win. Even if i only have 1 unit left in England, that’s fine by me. And why would the Japanese chose to attack on J1…If the Germans have London, than I will wait as long as possible to keep the U.S. out of the war.

I meant the dice of the sea-battle, not the Sealion itself.
Don’t know your exact moves, but if for example the German battleship gets damaged and there is no extra bought defence (carrier filled with 2 planes) then UK’s remaining fleet can go after the German fleet (sacrificing their own). What will be your naval defence for those transport ships?
If they make it (usually possible but risky - and again depending on the outcome of the fights in G1) then those transports will get sunk and there won’t be any German unit in London because there won’t be any Sealion next turn. Just saying: don’t forget the UK gets to play as well and if they see a chance to neutralize the coming Sealion, they will grab it. I would.

About naval bombardment: yes, but only if they don’t block anything.

(also i think you forgot to count a few UK troops before, but i don’t have the set-up tables here so i can’t really check)

Edit: don’t know why i mentioned Japan there, thought you said soemthing about that, but seems you didn’t, my bad. In fact it’s not important.

And as for UK giving up Taranto, i do agree (only for slightly other reasons)

@KillOFzee:

This means England MUST abandon Taranto and move to sz 112 to prevent a G2 Sea-lion.

Hang on… where exactly is your German surface fleet if not in 112?

One more thing that just came to mind, you can expect the Russian player to move their battleship (R1) to SZ114, if you declare war, you can’t land in Vyborg or Leningrad that turn since your fleet has to stop to fight this ship.

Special Forces, I do not attack with my Battleship and cruiser. You’re right, the Russian Battleship can move to block my landing in G2, but that still doesn’t stop the British from abandoning Taranto. I still would be able to land in Leningrad on turn 3, which I would have to do anyway if the Russians built up in Leningrad. And If they don’t defend Leningrad in turn 2, It will it make it easier when I land in G3.

I am beginning to see the proper def for UK when faced with a sealion strategy.  Against a 2 trn 1 cv build you move all remaining assets to sz 92 with a blocker in sz93.  You move all starting units in london to scotland.  This means a G2 invasion of Scotland is suicide, 4 inf aa gun 2-3 ftrs.  London meanwhile can still be held with your 9 inf purchase and 1 ftr from the med.

If Germany builds more than 2 trns, then you leave Scotland invitingly open so that you can pounce on the Germ fleet when it moves off scotland.  Also UK2 you can move another surface ship into the English Channel to stop bombardment or alternately put your remaining naval assets in the English Channel so that Germany has to attack the ships and London if he wants a G3 invasion.

Stopping a G4 invasion seems much more difficult though.

@JimmyHat:

I am beginning to see the proper def for UK when faced with a sealion strategy.  Against a 2 trn 1 cv build you move all remaining assets to sz 92 with a blocker in sz93.  You move all starting units in london to scotland.  This means a G2 invasion of Scotland is suicide, 4 inf aa gun 2-3 ftrs.  London meanwhile can still be held with your 9 inf purchase and 1 ftr from the med.

If Germany builds more than 2 trns, then you leave Scotland invitingly open so that you can pounce on the Germ fleet when it moves off scotland.  Also UK2 you can move another surface ship into the English Channel to stop bombardment or alternately put your remaining naval assets in the English Channel so that Germany has to attack the ships and London if he wants a G3 invasion.

Stopping a G4 invasion seems much more difficult though.

Not necessarily, UK can keep building defence (depending on German purchases and the urgency of their threat that doesn’t have to be all INF anymore, defensive units that can be used ofdfensively later on: Artillery (since you got alot of inf there), an occasional fighter and/or even fleet if you gather your remaining ships and Germany has not enough naval/air force).

I think it gets harder for Germany when they wait longer (assuming UK doesn’t become reckless). For a G4 germany will like japan to hold off long enough and that is bad for them since India and Anzac would get the time to become strong, and if USA is in the war sooner, they can help London out (sending some troops and/or a few fighters for example)

@KillOFzee:

Special Forces, I do not attack with my Battleship and cruiser. You’re right, the Russian Battleship can move to block my landing in G2, but that still doesn’t stop the British from abandoning Taranto. I still would be able to land in Leningrad on turn 3, which I would have to do anyway if the Russians built up in Leningrad. And If they don’t defend Leningrad in turn 2, It will it make it easier when I land in G3.

Ah okay, have never seen that happen, so when you said you destroyed the UK navy i assumed you’d include these strong units and park everything in SZ113.