Changes still needed to the game, IMHO

Perhaps a good way to give Japan additional NO’s is to split the 5 of 7 NO they already have.  Change it to an ‘outer’ and ‘inner’ defense line.  Outer could be Palau, Carolines, marshal, and maybe Hainai, inner defense line could be Iwo, Oki, formosa…perhaps Philipines.

The pacific is so large, and was really an objective of the Japanese government.  Sure wish it was better represented in the game.

I have played a lot of games of Alpha 2 at this point and I am just not coming to the same conclusions.  Cmdr Jennifer you have put a lot of thought into this and I am not saying you don’t have valid points.  That said I believe LH put a ton of thought into Alpha +2 with the help of the gaming community.  I think people need to do some more play testing before concluding one side has the advantage over the other.

Yes the allies get more IPC’s to spend but there is a lot more to be considered than that.  First is the US must spend points in both sides of the board or the Axis will either get 6 victory cities in the Pacific or 8 in the European and then it is game over.  It doesn’t matter if the US goes over to Europe and stomps Italy and reels in Germany if Japan does an India Crush turn 3, repells China and then takes either Hawaii or Sydney.  At that point it is game over and the allies must surrender.  And those are very possible goals for Japan with the use of the starting Air Force, Navy, and added extra lands units in Alpha if US spends too much, too long in the Atlantic.

Now if the US goes into the Pacific early and stays there too long Germany can bring the pain to Russia if it has chosen operation Barbarossa.  Germany has a powerful starting unit advantage against Russia plus it has a larger income and can utilize the major factories in West Germany and Germany to out produce Russia.  As Germany pushes into Russia the communist will be forced to fall back further and further.  Germany can earn a +5 bonus for Leningrad, +5 for Stalingrad and the +5 for the Caucus if Russia decides to turtle.  As it pushes in it will also capture the minors in Ukraine and Leningrad.  At that point it can use the minors to help marginalize Russia and the Majors in Europe to Repel the Allies.

With the addition of so many national bonus Italy also has the potential to become a powerhouse in Global.  I will admit there is the UK1 on the Italian fleet that I don’t think is very fair but skillful use of Big Daddy Germany can help Italy make it through the early hit.  LH added the minor in Southern France so if Germany takes Southern France it has even more options to help Italy out.  Even if UK London sinks the Italian Battleship, Cruiser and 2 transports UK1, Italy can still get back up if the Axis is determined.

Also in the Pacific Japan has options.  The Air Force can be used to paste one major Allied target after another if a proper Infantry shield is utilized.  This is another area that shows straight up IPCs vs. IPCs is not always the best indicator of game balance in Global especially when you consider the victory city conditions.   I also disagree that Japan can not keep pace with US Naval builds.  If anything I have found that it is the US who can not keep pace with Japan naval builds especially if Japan decides to put some of its starting Air Force on carriers and mix that in with sub and destroyer builds.  The US would actually have to spend the points for 2 extra fighters in this scenario (Japan starts the game with theirs) if it wanted to match Japan in Capital Ships.  Also there is the issue of line of supply for the US.  If it wants to venture past Hawaii then Japan can out maneuver it with Naval Bases and it can hit it with both the Air Force and the Japanese Navy.  The US may have a lot of IPCs but it does not have enough IPCs to survive that.

As you know the US has been altered dramatically since OBB and it is possible to peel points away from them especially if they decide to hit Europe first.  I do not think it would be fair or game balancing at this point to restrict the US any further.

Also, I think people may be underestimating just how much the US has to accomplish against the Axis to stop them on both sides of the board.  They most likely need a very large naval fleet in the Pacific and the Atlantic Ocean.  If they don’t build enough fleet in the Atlantic and the Germans have been investing some points in subs and planes here and there they can lose all their transports when they get far away from home and try to do some damage.  And the US has to build transports to fight Germany while Germany does not have build transports to fight the US.  This is a huge factor.

Finally this is only addressing what the Allies most accomplish to stop the Axis from winning the game.  It has not even begun to address bringing Rome, Berlin, and Tokyo under lasting Allie control which is what the Allies must do to win the game.

@Frank:

I have played a lot of games of Alpha 2 at this point and I am just not coming to the same conclusions.  Cmdr Jennifer you have put a lot of thought into this and I am not saying you don’t have valid points.  That said I believe LH put a ton of thought into Alpha +2 with the help of the gaming community.  I think people need to do some more play testing before concluding one side has the advantage over the other.

Yes the allies get more IPC’s to spend but there is a lot more to be considered than that.  First is the US must spend points in both sides of the board or the Axis will either get 6 victory cities in the Pacific or 8 in the European and then it is game over.  It doesn’t matter if the US goes over to Europe and stomps Italy and reels in Germany if Japan does an India Crush turn 3, repells China and then takes either Hawaii or Sydney.  At that point it is game over and the allies must surrender.  And those are very possible goals for Japan with the use of the starting Air Force, Navy, and added extra lands units in Alpha if US spends too much too long in the Atlantic.

Now if the US goes into the Pacific early and stays there too long Germany can bring he pain to Russia if it has chosen operation Barbarossa.  Germany has a powerful starting unit advantage against Russia plus it has a larger income and can utilize the major factories in West Germany and Germany to out produce Russia.  As Germany pushes into Russia the communist will be forced to fall back further and further.  Germany can earn a +5 bonus for Leningrad, +5 for Stalingrad and the +5 for the Caucus if Russia decides to turtle.  As it pushes in it will also capture the minors in Ukraine and Leningrad.  At that point it can use the minors to help marginalize Russia and the Majors in Europe to Repel the Allies.

With the addition of so many national bonus Italy also has the potential to become a powerhouse in Global.  I will admit there is the UK1 on the Italian fleet that I don’t think is very fair but skillful use of Big Daddy Germany can help Italy make it through the early hit.  LH added the minor in Southern France so if Germany takes Southern France it has even more options to help Italy out.  Even if UK London sinks the Italian Battleship, Cruiser and 2 transports UK1, Italy can still get back up if the Axis is determined.

Also in the Pacific Japan has options.  The Air Force can be used to paste one major Allied target after another if a proper Infantry shield is utilized.  This is another area that shows straight up IPCs vs. IPCs is not always the best indicator of game balance in Global especially when you consider the victory city conditions.   I also disagree that Japan can not keep pace with US Naval builds.  If anything I have found that it is the US who can not keep pace with Japan naval builds especially if Japan decides to put some of its starting Air Force on carriers and mix that in with sub and destroyer builds.  The US would actually have to spend the points for 2 extra fighters in this scenario (Japan starts the game with theirs) if it wanted to match Japan in Capital Ships.  Also there is the issue of line of supply for the US.  If it wants to venture past Hawaii then Japan can out maneuver it with Naval Bases and it can hit it with both the Air Force and the Japanese Navy.  The US may have a lot of IPCs but it does not have enough IPCs to survive that.

As you know the US has been altered dramatically since OBB and it is possible to peel points away from them especially if they decide to hit Europe first.  I do not think it would be fair or game balancing at this point to restrict the US any further.

Also, I think people may be underestimating just how much the US has to accomplish against the Axis to stop them on both sides of the board.  They most likely need a very large naval fleet in the Pacific and the Atlantic Ocean.  If they don’t build enough fleet in the Atlantic and the Germans have been investing some points in subs and planes here and there they can lose all their transports when they get far away from home and try to do some damage.  And the US has to build transports to fight Germany while Germany does not have build transports to fight the US.  This is a huge factor.

Finally this is only addressing what the Allies most accomplish to stop the Axis from winning the game.  It has not even begun to address bringing Rome, Berlin, and Tokyo under lasting Allie control which is what the Allies must do to win the game.

I agree

I think alpha +2 is a pretty well balanced game that is actually tilted slightly to the axis the way the victory conditions are set.  A good axis player will win on the other board if America goes all in on one.

I find it far less pressured to play the Allies, I’m also more likely to try and make an exchange of pieces with the Allies, so I think they have a small advantage, however, any solutions we propose should be grounded in what could be changed. For example, I do not think the economies for the US or UK are likely to be changed. I would think that if the UK economy wasn’t split they’d need a big nerf. If the UK started with a base economy of 45 it would be less about defending the home island and more about how fast can I crush Germany.

Jen your FIC NO sounds very awkwards- it just makes FIC a wasteland, like its not even on the board.  Let me suggest this:

Change the #4 NO for Japan in Alpha +2 to this:

4. Collect 5 IPCs per turn for each of the following major power centers controlled by an Axis power – Honolulu, Sydney, Calcutta, Hong Kong, Shanghai and/or the Western United States. Theme: Strategic national objectives.

My only worry is that it may or may not ignite more J1 Gambits because you would have to be at war to get these.

I’d rather see it along the lines of Greater East Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere, Japan collects 5 IPC when it controls Korea, Kiangsu, Kwangtung and French Indo China.

With the powerful Sealion, the Japanese turn 3 India Crush… the United States needs to be the big dog in both theaters.  USA needs that flexibility to dump all in Pacific or Atlantic.

Japan is an island nation.  You can see a USA loaded transport 5,478 miles away!!  (Tokyo to LA fyi.)  You can prep for any sort of attack the USA may try to use on you.  For the life of me, I honestly can’t see Japan getting invaded by any Pacific nation.  It’s why USA had to drop a freaking nuke!!  You can D the heck out of Japan while you destroy India, capture all of China, and dive into Russia.  The IPC is more than enough for USA and Anzac, you can even hold a 100% USA at bay.

Don’t see it.  Alpha +2 is balanced.

@Cmdr:

I would gladly throw away 4 infantry with the allies to kill 1 axis infantry because the allies earn that much more than the axis.  That alone unbalances the game, IMHO.

I just don’t believe IPCs vs. IPCs is the only thing that effects balance in Global.  The US forces are stuck behind two oceans they have to cross to stop the Axis from winning the game on each side of the map.  Also the Axis can win the game on the other side of the board if US goes too heavy in one or the other.

@Cmdr:

America should feel like a powerhouse???  Sure, on the condition that it has to spend in BOTH theaters and cannot dump it all DIRECTLY into one or the other. I believe that was the compromise I agreed too.  My original stance is that the American territories should be halved in value and half their NOs should be removed, since then, I’ve been talked into a much more conservative vantage.  My original point being that if it can act as a unified nation, it should earn what the other unified nations earn, and that’s 40-50 IPC per round, not 80-100 IPC a round…

I see no way the US could accomplish it’s job if it earned 40-50 IPCs a round.  The math is just not there for all the war ships they need to buy to protect their fleet and the amount of transports they need to buy.  Finally they generally need to do this in both theaters or the Allies will lose the victory city game.

@Cmdr:

Now people are saying that America shouldn’t have to split it’s income and the arguments they use are valid even more for England than they are for America!  But they don’t want to get rid of the split for England, which I find just absolutely hilarious. Sorry, but if it’s good for the goose, it’s good for the gander, so to say.

I think the UK spilt works for the game.  I don’t think you want the UK to be able to drop 45 in one side of the board for various tactical reasons.  I just don’t see it as necessary for game balance to spilt the US income.

@Cmdr:

All in all, I do agree with Geist, there is no pressure to play the allies what-so-ever.  Daring and unheard of strategies can be employed because, after all, you have a two nation income lead on the Axis!  Okay, so your Artillery only strategy failed, so what?  In two rounds I can out build them and have equal numbers in ANY other strategy of my choice!  You can’t do that with the Axis.  If you try a gambit to have even a chance of winning the game, and that gambit fails, your (to continue a theme) goose is cooked…

I am just not coming to the same conclusion.  The Allies must react to what the Axis does in certain situations with spot on timing or they will lose due to victory cities.  For instance if an Axis player does Sea Lion successfully G3 and on J3 crushes India the US will have to balance itself very carefully, as 2 Allied countries just went down.  On one hand the Axis are now probably 1 victory city away from allied surrender in the Pacific.  Then on the other UK got their capital captured so they are not going to be able to stop the growth of Italy or put any pressure on Germany.  The US can’t leave London just sitting in German hands but it will take a very large US force to stop Germany from just trading London with US and looting the treasury again.  On the other hand if the US does not fortify Hawaii or chase Japan down to Australia then it is going to be game over.  I don’t see how US could accomplish these goals if it reduced to a 40 point country.  Going that far I believe unbalances the game big time in the Axis favor.  Also I believe operation Barbarossa is another viable option for the Axis.  If Germany goes hard at Russia with all it’s extra starting units and larger economy Russia with have to choose it’s war strategy very carefully.

I’m not sold on alpha 2. I’ve only played 3 games of global the last 2 being Japan with 1 game being alpha/OOB rules the other being alpha 2. In both Japan is extremely hard pressed to extend on the mainland, take and maintain control of the money islands and deal with the US fleet. In my current game US has been going big in the Pacific and I’ve managed to rope a dope until Turn 8 but it looks like the jig is up.  Perhaps the scramble rule has to be tweaked when home islands are under attack as I’ll have some idle ftrs in Japan just watching the battle in z6.

Personally, I think A2 is pretty well balanced, but I have found Japan a little soft, mostly on the mainland v. China and Russia.  I don’t believe the Euroaxis needs any help, but two or three more Japanese starting on the mainland wouldn’t hurt, I don’t think.

One thing that I have noticed in just about every Axis won game of G40 is that the Allies lose when the US tries to change tactics.  Often what happens is when the US first starts out, they are getting mostly warships and planes for the Pacific with little put out on the Atlantic.  Then, after 2 or 3 rounds, they start buying a lot of equipment and transports for the Atlantic to try and help out their UK buddies in Europe with a sharp decrease in spending in the Pacific.  Problem is that they can’t seem to build enough to overcome the Germans/Italians, especially if Sealion was successful.  Meanwhile, the US Pacific forces are kind of left on a limb while Japan starts really asserting itself.  Plus, with the US presence in the Pacific getting gradually weaker, Japan is able to better concentrate on China, India and ANZAC, gaining more territories and IPCs while gradually whittling the US forces down.  Then if the US decides to reinforce the Pacific, that gives German/Italy more time to build even more defense.

It just seems to me that it is really hard for the Allies to win as it is if the US doesn’t have the option to go 90-100% in one theater.  Unless the UK can prevent a Sealion, in which case they can prevent Italy from gobbling up all of Africa and harass the Germans enough to take some pressure off of Russia.

I just do not feel pressured as the Allies. The greatest pressure seems to be on the US to make good purchases and get their forces into combat quickly. Obviously I’m not saying the Axis cannot win, but, I don’t believe the game is as well balanced as it could be. Changes I’d like to see include:

1. A 5 IPC NO for Japan based on Land conquests.

2. A minor buff to Japans starting forces, possibly adding one more tranport to SZ 6.

3. Italy neutral until it declares war at the start of its turn.

4. A small increase of German units on the Russian border, possibly a destroyer in SZ 113 as well.

@eudemonist:

Personally, I think A2 is pretty well balanced, but I have found Japan a little soft, mostly on the mainland v. China and Russia.  I don’t believe the Euroaxis needs any help, but two or three more Japanese starting on the mainland wouldn’t hurt, I don’t think.

This is where I am at right now.  I know for sure the Alpha+2 is in favor of the Allies slightly.  Therefore I just want to see a tweeked NO to give Japan a little more cash.  Europe side is fine IMO.

Change Japan’s #4 NO by adding 5IPCs for owning Shanghai or Hong Kong.

I really think that is all that is needed.

Its difficult for Japan to take India and then come back to get Sydney/Honolulu or vice versa OR charge towards Russia (long route).  I do think they need a little more cash in the Pacific.  US seems to overwhelm in the later rounds once they get going.

As US I have always had to split the income in Alpha+2.  I think you really get burned if you don’t.  Usually its 60-40 or 70-30 Pacific side.

@questioneer:

This is where I am at right now.  I know for sure the Alpha+2 is in favor of the Allies slightly.  Therefore I just want to see a tweeked NO to give Japan a little more cash.  Europe side is fine IMO.

Change Japan’s #4 NO by adding 5IPCs for owning Shanghai or Hong Kong.

I really think that is all that is needed.

Yeah, that would probably work as well.  I was just kinda shooting for simplicity with a few extra infantry.

@mantlefan:

Maybe it’s child’s play if you are litarally playing axis opponents who are children, but it is infathomable hopw much the axis players must suck inthe games you are describing.

Idi Amin-like typing detected…

@eudemonist:

@questioneer:

This is where I am at right now.  I know for sure the Alpha+2 is in favor of the Allies slightly.  Therefore I just want to see a tweeked NO to give Japan a little more cash.  Europe side is fine IMO.

Change Japan’s #4 NO by adding 5IPCs for owning Shanghai or Hong Kong.

I really think that is all that is needed.

Yeah, that would probably work as well.  I was just kinda shooting for simplicity with a few extra infantry.

@mantlefan:

Maybe it’s child’s play if you are litarally playing axis opponents who are children, but it is infathomable hopw much the axis players must suck inthe games you are describing.

Idi Amin-like typing detected…

I know right… I can’t even figure out what post he is addressing, it must be an automated troll response.

LOL, apprantly when people disagree or finds the case unrealistic, they are trolls.  He does have a legit argument, are the axis rooks or not?

For russia to be out producing germ, it would require bad roles for germ, or a rook germ.  In any real game, the most russia can do is to tie down german units, and hardly make serious offensives.  Germany would have to be spending a buttload on non land units in order for russia to out produce him, or the allies be landing in France in a serious way Turn 3/4.

How can Japan be at war with the allies and be making only 40 IPCs, and not be late in the game?  Most good Japans can get their incoem into the 60’s and hold it there for a while.

What makes it troll like is he comes out and says a bunch of people sucks, even though he has no idea who those people are. Then he refutes a bunch of arguements no one is even making. Who said Russia out produces Germany? Who gave specific examples of Japan not being able to take the DEI or the UK’s circumstances? What was said is that some of us feel the game is tilted towards the Allies (as well as some debate towards what degree people think it is). Too bad Mantlefan doesn’t play online, I bet we could all learn from him…

@Geist:

Who gave specific examples of Japan not being able to take the DEI or the UK’s circumstances?

@Cmdr:

I would love to GET the DEI for a change!  But I think you are missing how easy it is to sack Tokyo now….  Getting DEI is pretty impossible now due to how fast America can move and get ships to bear…

Obviously from the OP Geist…

@Geist:

Too bad Mantlefan doesn’t play online, I bet we could all learn from him…

Yeah.  You probably could.

@Geist:

Who said Russia out produces Germany?

@Cmdr:

This is due, probably, to the fact that Russia can easily out produce Germany and thus stop the incursion without assistance.

Again, the OP made this statement…

Mantlefan is right.  Japan has the tools to survive, and also to win.  Honestly if USA is 100% pacific, your Germany/Italy brothers are morons if they don’t win.  Japan can’t be captured in less than 10 turns anyway, even that’s pushing it.