I’m not complaining that Sealion breaks the game; rather that it makes the UK very boring.
I’m not complaining that Sealion breaks the game; rather that it makes the UK very boring.
When was the UK’s job in any game NOT boring? It always gets hammered by the Luftwaffe in EVERY A+A game on G1, before it has a chance to consolidate its spread-out fleet. If A+A implemented a unit cap on how many units can potentially be in any given area/SZ, we’d have a much cooler game on our hands here (with a LOT more combat). At least you can say in this game that going after the Luftwaffe potentially means a LOT more casaulties in France.
Heh, Africa is still entertaining. Watching the Italians bumble around helplessly like they always do for the first few rounds is fun to watch.
I’m not complaining that Sealion breaks the game; rather that it makes the UK very boring.
When was the UK’s job in any game NOT boring? It always gets hammered by the Luftwaffe in EVERY A+A game on G1, before it has a chance to consolidate its spread-out fleet. If A+A implemented a unit cap on how many units can potentially be in any given area/SZ, we’d have a much cooler game on our hands here (with a LOT more combat). At least you can say in this game that going after the Luftwaffe potentially means a LOT more casaulties in France.
Heh, Africa is still entertaining. Watching the Italians bumble around helplessly like they always do for the first few rounds is fun to watch.
I don’t really like that, which is why I complain.
Problem with Africa is that UK doesn’t have enough troops there if it looses its capital. Unless it flies in Indian planes, every trading of Egypt whittles down its forces.
Hell, if the UK loses its capital and can’t liberate, its pretty much game over in Africa until the US gets there. Italy will be getting 30+ IPCs a round whereas Africa is getting zero. So the US better not have been sleeping at the switch for a US 4 takeback.
If Japan completely screws up in the Pacific there’s a chance the Commonwealth from India can have some fun taking it back, but this is usually not the case since India is usually Japan’s no. 1 target.
Arent the Italian subs ‘unofficial’? Our member put some *'s there to indicate he was suggesting the new subs. Larry did not siggest them.
The changes all seem great, with one or two exceptions:
**1) UK 2nd capital in ottawa - as explained in great detail by sgtBlitz, it nerfs the Sealion strategy completely. Taking euroUK’s only capital and stopping their war contribution is the only reason to Sealion, otherwise the UK isles hv little strategic value for axis. It really is just that simple. If the euroUK is taken out of the war, the UK player still has India to play. If that’s taken too, then they can try to cajole the USA player to liberate London to hv another player rejoin the allies’ ranks. Seems perfectly fair to me.
The major problem with the OOB global game seems to consistently be that for evenly matched (namely good/experienced) players, it is v v hard for the axis to win. Hence the axis really dont need to be nerfed too much. That’s not to say don’t touch them at all if the errata’s altering many things - maybe the axis need a bit of a change to aid the rebalancing of the allies, etc. But there’s little point altering the OOB setup if it doesn’t address this fundamental problem as it currently seems to stand (only 3-4 months after release, admittedly)
**2) The overall potential increase to USA NO’s. Basically, the +20 base alone still places USA at a sufficiently high level to waltz over in 4-6 turns and smash the euroAxis. The +10 for the collection of 7 islands is a great idea. +5 for the 3 pairs of islands may be ok, but could add too much to the USA. Maybe it’s better to only use a +10 base and maintain the other proposals. That way if the USA maintains the Pacific theatre, it could get +35 ipcs - 5 more than the OOB - and if it doesn’t, then its only getting +10 (or maybe a little more if Japan’s lazy).
WRT my earlier point abt it already being tough for the axis, its mainly because the USA comes over to europe and takes berlin. And w relative ease - even if the first wave dies, the second or third does the job shortly afterwards. 70 ipcs is still enuff to do this . This is especially so because those 70 ipcs is almost impossible to reduce. Sure the other powers can accrue high incomes, but all of them are somewhat vulnerable to being shaved down. Not so the USA. That’s why i think Larry’s general proposals are awesome to rebalance things; i’d just go a bit further. Maybe the new victory conditions will address this issue effectively and so his NO’s are fine. Time will tell. I’d suspect tho, that it will take Japan many turns to take India, then Sydney, then Honolulu. I’d guess J7 optimistically; so US5 should make a dent on europe, then 1-2 turns to drop a fleet in hawaii… etc
That said, v v happy w almost all of the other changes. Esp the victory conditions and the new NO’s (esp esp in the pacific). The extras suggested by oztea et al - namely the 2 subs in sz95 would be well worthwhile.
Two other possible additions:
The changes all seem great, with one or two exceptions:
**1) UK 2nd capital in ottawa - as explained in great detail by sgtBlitz, it nerfs the Sealion strategy completely. Taking euroUK’s only capital and stopping their war contribution is the only reason to Sealion, otherwise the UK isles hv little strategic value for axis. It really is just that simple. If the euroUK is taken out of the war, the UK player still has India to play. If that’s taken too, then they can try to cajole the USA player to liberate London to hv another player rejoin the allies’ ranks. Seems perfectly fair to me.
Well, what if UK in exile would only receive IPC’s from Canadian territory? That way they get 6 IPC.
They’re not really in the game anymore (still attractive enough for Sealion), but Canada isn’t completely defenseless as well.
Hypotetical case:
New USA’s NO: the Enterprise. If, being at war, USA holds Hawaii, Alaska, Midway and the Aleutians, USA gets the Enterprise for free! (one time NO). But wait, it’s 24th century’s USS Enterprise, with Jean L. Picard, Data, orbital bombardments, phasers, fancy high-tech weapons and even a DVD of the series! . In game terms, 24th century’s Enterprise is a 5/5 unit that repeat rolls, has 10 hits, is inmune to aa gun fire (and all other units must roll at 1s and repeat the succesfull rolls) and counts as land, sea and air unit, all in the same basket (it’s even a submarine, a trannie and a mayor IC)! You can deploy the Enterprise at any place in Pacific board, even in enemy, neutral or impassable territories. If any turn USA doesn’t buy any boats at the Pacific board, remove the Enterprise from the game forever
Sad fact:
Even with that imaginary NO, many would still say that there is not much incentive to fight for the Pacific
Techno, how is 70 ipcs enough to kill the Euro Axis? Germany will have about that amount of money, and it only needs to spend 6 ipcs for every 14 ipcs the US spends(2 inf vs inf, art, Transport), leaving it with plenty to fight Russia. Seriously, what in the world are Japan and Germany doing
Techno, how is 70 ipcs enough to kill the Euro Axis? Germany will have about that amount of money, and it only needs to spend 6 ipcs for every 14 ipcs the US spends(2 inf vs inf, art, Transport), leaving it with plenty to fight Russia. Seriously, what in the world are Japan and Germany doing
I was asking myself the same thing…
@SalothSar:
When are these changes coming out?
Define “coming out.”
Thank you oztea for listing the changes that were introduced by Larry Harris. One thing that was not listed though was Larry’s proposal for minor industrial complexes in the US:
Larry Harris - “Another important concept under consideration is to change both US Industrial Complexes to minors. The US player can, without expense, up grade them during the first Mobilize New Units phase following the event of war. They can only be used as majors on the following turn.”
Do people think that this will not be one of the changes? If this will be implemented, then what does Larry mean by both US Industrial Complexes since US has three Major Complexes? I am assuming he meant EUS and WUS.
In fact, I think that the CUSA IC should be deleted. Any thing that speeds up the invasion of America in case of a ignore Japan strat is good
Hypotetical case:
New USA’s NO: the Enterprise. If, being at war, USA holds Hawaii, Alaska, Midway and the Aleutians, USA gets the Enterprise for free! (one time NO). But wait, it’s 24th century’s USS Enterprise, with Jean L. Picard, Data, orbital bombardments, phasers, fancy high-tech weapons and even a DVD of the series! . In game terms, 24th century’s Enterprise is a 5/5 unit that repeat rolls, has 10 hits, is inmune to aa gun fire (and all other units must roll at 1s and repeat the succesfull rolls) and counts as land, sea and air unit, all in the same basket (it’s even a submarine, a trannie and a mayor IC)! You can deploy the Enterprise at any place in Pacific board, even in enemy, neutral or impassable territories. If any turn USA doesn’t buy any boats at the Pacific board, remove the Enterprise from the game forever
Sad fact:
Even with that imaginary NO, many would still say that there is not much incentive to fight for the Pacific
With the game ending if Japan claim their victory cities, I think that would be incentive enough.:)
Some people are saying that is enough with holding Hawaii and ignoring the rest (with a goal of 7 VCs)… go figure how strong is the KGF dogma
Some people are saying that is enough with holding Hawaii and ignoring the rest (with a goal of 7 VCs)… go figure how strong is the KGF dogma
6 victory city… 7 it’s too hard for Japan.
did Larry’s iq just sunk to rock bottom?
germany already has it so tough!
in last game, UK (no sealion) and USSR with soem french help and few americans were enough to halt germany, sending over 60 IPC of US aid to japan
and japan is key in this game: they are in reach of money
italy is banging on egypt wall, especially with IC
germany is banging on russian wall
The victory cities in the Pacific mattering rule should lessen the load on europe. America might have to do like real life. Retake……Wake was it? to make Japanese advancements slower then go europe first for awhile and finally come kick japans butt.
@Frontovik:
did Larry’s iq just sunk to rock bottom?
germany already has it so tough!
in last game, UK (no sealion) and USSR with soem french help and few americans were enough to halt germany, sending over 60 IPC of US aid to japan
and japan is key in this game: they are in reach of moneyitaly is banging on egypt wall, especially with IC
germany is banging on russian wall
Did you read Larry’s actual post? A lot of the proposals he is currently thinking through will put A LOT more money into the pacific. And give Germany a little better of position at the start. If the victory conditions change to where Japan can win it all for the axis and the US chooses to minimally go after Japan then Japan should be able to over come their opponents and get thoses 6 cities farily quickly. Then have a harder go for the 7th.
Techno, how is 70 ipcs enough to kill the Euro Axis? Germany will have about that amount of money, and it only needs to spend 6 ipcs for every 14 ipcs the US spends(2 inf vs inf, art, Transport), leaving it with plenty to fight Russia. Seriously, what in the world are Japan and Germany doing
From what i’ve seen, Germany’s hard pressed devoting all it’s resources to hitting USSR. USA can strike by US4 and Germany’s unlikely to take moscow before G5 - and that’s assuming no Sealion. Without Sealion, the euroUK is still active, tho not a major threat by itself. Combined w USA, the UK becomes v useful to punch holes in German defences. With a Sealion, Germany should be abt halfway to Moscow by the time USA arrives.
I’d repeat, its the extreme lack of pressure USA currently has on it that facilitates the 70ipcs being quite powerful. Yes it has to waste cash on trannies, but it can also use trannies to land wherever it wants etc, so its not all just cash down the toilet.
It seems like once the USA arrives in force, euroAxis are screwed. I’ll happily admit that maybe my games havent balanced particularly well or something, but the basic issue of attrition always looked to eventually crush Germany at that point. Ideally Germany should have some ability to hold off the USA even if they land in europe. Maybe a better group of players than mine can reach that equilibrium where tactics come into play once more. And i’m hoping the proposed changes go a v long way to achieve that also.
Hell, it’s probably best to test the proposed changes as an official errata and see what happens; so there’s small steps of change occurring rather than being more drastic. However i suspect the KGF strategy may still be prevelant with that +20 bonus.
I’d keep in mind that its plausible that with the proposed changes that the USA could actually be 5 ipcs higher than it currently is; and that doesn’t necessarily involve going hard at japan, just taking a few islands in the Pacific.
Tho i’m desperately hoping Japan will be greedy and want the islands too, hence the Pacific battles are ON, baby!!
