Isnt the game just broken if USA builds a major factory in Norway?

@hobo:

I’ve only played one game and it became very apparent that the game is seriously broken.  In aa50, it was still possible to win with either side even if the allies concentrated entirely on one axis.  In aag40 however, some of the rules are seriously broken and need to be adjusted for the “global” game.

1. ports are fine in the pacific, but in europe, it’s a disaster for the axis.  There is no way the axis can prevent a large US naval stack with 5 or more transports sitting on the atlantic side of gibraltar.  With air on carriers and bombers in uk, the US could strike anywhere in france, norway, or either german or italian capitals with a stack that could be as large as 20 units very early.

2. japan can’t do enough against north america to prevent the US from going all out kgf by moving all their naval units to europe.  They can be annoying but the US income is too large and the building base too high on continental US to seriously threaten taking w. US.  It would also mean giving up china and the rest of asia to put in a serious enough of an attempt on w. US which means japan’s income is just too small.

3. as discussed here, once the US takes norway, it’s over.  Germany would have to spend too much just to defend their homeland which doesn’t leave enough to do anything against ussr if that player is half way competent.  10 ground units with a stack of air every turn means germany gets picked apart pretty fast.  With the US strike force starting off at gibraltar, it’s impossible for the axis to defend everything with both their homelands are at risk.  Building a major complex in norway first doesn’t help since germany isn’t exactly rolling in dough.  The only way to even make any attempt of holding norway is by giving up any assault on ussr but people can see what would happen there eventually.

4. unlike aa50 where japan can eventually get strong enough and advance quickly enough to actually help germany, aag40 board is too large for japan to do anything to help against kgf.  Anyone looking at the unit counts can see it starts to go downhill for the axis very quickly.  There’s too big of a gap in incomes.

The only thing I can see possibly offsetting these factors are victory cities.  I haven’t lookated at it closely enough, but I guess if victory cities for the axis were set low enough, it might be possible for them to win that way if japan can take out all of asia before germany gets crushed.

I don’t want to believe this is true but every game I’ve played so far has reinforced these points.  Yes, if the Japan is extremely efficient and well played and makes a beeline for VC’s in the Pacific/Africa/Russia its possible to grab them just in time, however that seems to be the only reliable way the Axis can pull off a win.  I use the term reliable very loosely as each game I play the allies figure out new tricks to slow down the Axis, whereas the Axis are always one bad dice roll or miscalculation away from their plans being stalled for crucial turns they can’t afford to lose.  The Allies have a huge economic head-start that’s tough to chip away at beyond a certain point, and the ability to use the US to dictate the course of the game.

On the Victory Cities idea, I’ve come up with this suggestion.  I’ve probably overlooked something, but the basic idea is to spread the action out more evenly, and give the Axis a reasonable chance.

The Axis starts with 4 capitals, including Shanghai (which should really be Nanking*). The Allies must capture 3 of these to win.

The Allies have 18 VCs, split into three regions:

Western Region/Atlantic: Washington, London, Paris, Tunis, Cairo, Cape Town

Soviet Region: Moscow, Leningrad, Stalingrad, Kiev (WUkr), Chelyabinsk (Novos), Vladivostok (Amur)

Eastern/Pacific Region: Chungking (Szech), New Delhi, Singapore (Malaya), Manilla, Sydney, LA or Honolulu

The Axis have to capture 3 VCs in each region and hold 3 of their own caps simultaneously to win; you may consider NO bonuses for holding 3-in-a-group at any other time.

*Former Chinese capital.  Q: should China be considered to have liberated it’s original capital if it takes this tt, and gain/regain the abilities of a major power thereby?

@Imperious:

I find it hard to believe, but i read that they only play-tested E40 THREE TIMES AND G40 THREE TIMES.

Thats insane to produce a game with such paltry sessions behind it. I hope thats not correct, but i read this from a playtester.

Considering that we’re up to 55 pages of posts on a PBF game of G40, three times for playtesting is not surprising.  GAME IS TOO DAMN LONG.  WHEN WILL TRIPLEA COME OUT WITH A MAP FOR SAVE GAMES???

I agree though, I tried this strat out with the US, had no luck in holding Norway, but got a hell of a response out of the Germans when they took it back.  It is OP.

@LHoffman:

@Koningstiger:

@calvinhobbesliker:

Build a sub to kill Russia’s NO

Then I’d add a Russian destroyer to the sea zone off of Archangelsk. Possibly the Russian sub is still there. If not, at the very least the Russian player can use his planes to take out the sub(s). I wouldn’t consider one sub on its own (or even multiples without escorting surface ships) a serious problem for the Russians.

I don’t think that a German sub there is a big problem either. But have the rules changed or something? I thought planes on their own were not allowed to attack subs?

I’m afraid you misread my post. No, the rule didn’t change. I started out by saying: “Then I’d add a Russian DESTROYER…”

@hobo:

Probably can add

5. tanks costing 6 now kills germany.  It was bad enough taking moscow in aa50 with only 3 territories between germany and moscow, but look at how many more territories there are now.  Only an idiot would lose ussr in this game.

LOL

Disclaimer: I have not played Global beyond round two in a sample game.
Just thought I would propose solutions rather than rule changes.

I can offer three options for dealing with a Norway Factory strategy. Its up to you to try them out and see if they work, my focus is Europe for now. (Notice: I have not tried this, this is just 23 years of axis experience and theory)

Option 1: Germany builds 1 air unit a turn on average, keeps most of their air force in tact and waits for the U.S. to land, If they go there fast, their fleet will be small. Attack and sink their fleet. Next round attack and capture your free factory. Build 2 transports sometime before America lands. Use this small fleet’s 6 land units and your air force to recapture the factory at Norway. Play a defensive Germany and let Japan win it for you. Maybe take the neutrals (Sweden,Spain,Portugal,Turkey-Japan can take south American ones) and give all others territories to Germany instead of Italy and Germany will produce 65 or more without Russian territories I believe.

Option 2: Pull a Patton: Redirect your 2 Movement point units to Norway. Your stack should be 30 or more units, fall back with slow movers. Retake Norway with your stack and air, should be able to capture Norway 2 turns after it falls. (U.S. gets 1 build). Once secure, rendezvous with the slow movers and focus on defensive Germany moves if you can not restore your progress into Russia.

Option 3: Build a transport fleet of 10-11 transports, pay for it by securing London, park fleet in German waters where they are safe as long as Denmark is yours, trade Norway as needed with your fleet capacity of 22 land units. Again, may combine this with defensive Germany or a combined Japan Germany Kill America first move on round 4. (UK falls round 3, Jap Airforce of 28 units on Alaska turn 3, Germany takes Quebec round 4.)

Would I recommend these moves as standard? Maybe not, but its a counter to a chosen Allied plan. I’m sure others will come up with more conventional less aggressive counters given time. This was put together with a few moments of thought, given more time better counters may present themselves.

Has anyone considered a primarily naval Germany?

The idea struck me when I was considering what to do once Germany takes London. In a game I played, I attempted to hold it with land units. I turtled up and it ended up costing me. Russia was able to take my border territories and gain their +6 bonuses, getting +26 for three territories on one turn. Even with huge stacks of infantry, the game was a slow defeat for the axis.

I began to reconsider my turn 4 options. What if instead of buying tons of infantry, I had used UK’s cash to build about 11 submarines and 2 destroyers? Navy is capable of defending multiple territories at once, so I would have been able to pull all remaining land (including turn three purchases) to the Russian front, ideally taking Leningrad for the IPC bonus and to eliminate the Russian national objective. In the Atlantic, the Americans would have to have a sizable navy to hold off my new fleet. The idea is that you send out destroyers as blockers so they can never attack your submarines, then counterattack whatever they send at the destroyers with an appropriate number of subs and air units. You keep building 1 or 2 destroyers per turn, and the rest submarines. Because the Americans need to invest some money in transports and ground units, and because subs provide the best deal on offense for your money, the naval race will be even or at least you’ll be able to hold them off for quite a few turns.

Meanwhile, the Russians are pounding away at you, and this is the biggest problem with this strategy. You only have a few turns of few to no land purchases before they take Berlin. For this reason, the strategy can only work with concerted aid from Japan and Italy. Italy needs to climb quickly in production and start pumping infantry, and Japan needs to climb in production and start hurling tanks at Moscow.

If the Americans put 100% of their money into the Atlantic from turn 1 and pull their Pacific units as well, I doubt this strategy should be attempted, but depending on the setup on turn 4 after a Sealion, I think this strategy should at least be on the table.

@larrymarx:

Has anyone considered a primarily naval Germany?

The idea struck me when I was considering what to do once Germany takes London. In a game I played, I attempted to hold it with land units. I turtled up and it ended up costing me. Russia was able to take my border territories and gain their +6 bonuses, getting +26 for three territories on one turn. Even with huge stacks of infantry, the game was a slow defeat for the axis.

I began to reconsider my turn 4 options. What if instead of buying tons of infantry, I had used UK’s cash to build about 11 submarines and 2 destroyers? Navy is capable of defending multiple territories at once, so I would have been able to pull all remaining land (including turn three purchases) to the Russian front, ideally taking Leningrad for the IPC bonus and to eliminate the Russian national objective. In the Atlantic, the Americans would have to have a sizable navy to hold off my new fleet. The idea is that you send out destroyers as blockers so they can never attack your submarines, then counterattack whatever they send at the destroyers with an appropriate number of subs and air units. You keep building 1 or 2 destroyers per turn, and the rest submarines. Because the Americans need to invest some money in transports and ground units, and because subs provide the best deal on offense for your money, the naval race will be even or at least you’ll be able to hold them off for quite a few turns.

Meanwhile, the Russians are pounding away at you, and this is the biggest problem with this strategy. You only have a few turns of few to no land purchases before they take Berlin. For this reason, the strategy can only work with concerted aid from Japan and Italy. Italy needs to climb quickly in production and start pumping infantry, and Japan needs to climb in production and start hurling tanks at Moscow.

If the Americans put 100% of their money into the Atlantic from turn 1 and pull their Pacific units as well, I doubt this strategy should be attempted, but depending on the setup on turn 4 after a Sealion, I think this strategy should at least be on the table.

I think this is an excellent post Sealion strategy.   I think building all subs on turn 3 (assuming you are very sure that you will take London on turn 3) is the best move that Germany can make.  On turn 4, you can move all those subs, along with your surface fleet, to the seazone just west of UK and build 10 more subs in that same seazone.  This plan will work best if Japan waits till turn 3 to go to war since it severely limits how much navy USA can build by turn 3.  And the best thing is that the USA might be building some transports and land units on turns 1 and 2, limiting their navy even more.

Edit: I forgot that the major factory turns into a minor factory after Germany takes it.  Building all subs and moving them west might only work if Italy combines it fleet with Germany’s.

I think building all subs on turn 3 (assuming you are very sure that you will take London on turn 3) is the best move that Germany can make.

Building all subs and moving them west might only work if Italy combines it fleet with Germany’s.

Well, I just finished a game where I employed my submarine strategy and it failed miserably. I violated my own rule of not using it if America puts 100% into the Atlantic from turn 1. I arrogantly believed I could hold them off because they began producing straight ground units and transports to follow up their initial fleet. My problem was that he flew four bombers against my surface navy, crushing it and eliminating any chance of blocking him with my destroyers. It swung the naval standoff in his favor. Meanwhile, the Luftwaffe continued to dwindle. He was able to make a landing with 22 land units in France after liberating the UK. I might have been able to salvage the naval war, but then I wouldn’t have been doing anything against his invading force. I ended up hurling 19 submarines and a bomber against the US navy in a last ditch effort. I rolled down, and the game was over.

However, I realized something. If the Italians had had an air force, or if the Japanese had flown a bunch of planes to Europe, I could have salvaged the game. Because my subs could only damage naval units, he ended up damaging all five of his carriers and landing his planes in France. His navy was reduced to only about 20 pips defending 11 transports. If the Italians or Japs had had a followup attack, they could have finished the job for the Germans. I still would have had to deal with the French and the American liberators, but at least their reinforcements would have been stalled.

One thing I did well in this game, however, was eliminate the Russian threat with minimal use of force. I used the flanking maneuver discussed elsewhere on these forums, landing north of Moscow. I took Leningrad with 2 units (it was defended by 1 infantry) and put 20 units in Nenetsia. Russia shrank like a frightened turtle. A combined German and Italian offensive shortly cleared the eastern front of all remaining Russians, killing most of their offensive units. Italy and Germany then had respectable economies, especially since Italy had captured all of Africa. The game rested entirely in the hands of the Americans, whose punches were unfortunately just too strong to block.

With better strategic planning, I might have been able to pull off a naval Germany this game. I am considering alternatives to the submarines, such as destroyers and loaded carriers. It could be that this strategy may never work against a pure KGF strategy, but I’m still keeping the possibility open.

A final thought that ties this post back into the forum’s topic: if I had kept my subs in the Baltic, they would have been a fairly effective deterrent to building naval units out of a Norway factory, assuming I could also hold Denmark. It would take a lot of American IPCs to put something in the water that could stand up to 19 submarines. Thoughts?

@larrymarx:

Well, I just finished a game where I employed my submarine strategy and it failed miserably. I violated my own rule of not using it if America puts 100% into the Atlantic from turn 1. I arrogantly believed I could hold them off because they began producing straight ground units and transports to follow up their initial fleet. My problem was that he flew four bombers against my surface navy, crushing it and eliminating any chance of blocking him with my destroyers. It swung the naval standoff in his favor. Meanwhile, the Luftwaffe continued to dwindle. He was able to make a landing with 22 land units in France after liberating the UK. I might have been able to salvage the naval war, but then I wouldn’t have been doing anything against his invading force. I ended up hurling 19 submarines and a bomber against the US navy in a last ditch effort. I rolled down, and the game was over.

However, I realized something. If the Italians had had an air force, or if the Japanese had flown a bunch of planes to Europe, I could have salvaged the game. Because my subs could only damage naval units, he ended up damaging all five of his carriers and landing his planes in France. His navy was reduced to only about 20 pips defending 11 transports. If the Italians or Japs had had a followup attack, they could have finished the job for the Germans. I still would have had to deal with the French and the American liberators, but at least their reinforcements would have been stalled.

One thing I did well in this game, however, was eliminate the Russian threat with minimal use of force. I used the flanking maneuver discussed elsewhere on these forums, landing north of Moscow. I took Leningrad with 2 units (it was defended by 1 infantry) and put 20 units in Nenetsia. Russia shrank like a frightened turtle. A combined German and Italian offensive shortly cleared the eastern front of all remaining Russians, killing most of their offensive units. Italy and Germany then had respectable economies, especially since Italy had captured all of Africa. The game rested entirely in the hands of the Americans, whose punches were unfortunately just too strong to block.

With better strategic planning, I might have been able to pull off a naval Germany this game. I am considering alternatives to the submarines, such as destroyers and loaded carriers. It could be that this strategy may never work against a pure KGF strategy, but I’m still keeping the possibility open.

A final thought that ties this post back into the forum’s topic: if I had kept my subs in the Baltic, they would have been a fairly effective deterrent to building naval units out of a Norway factory, assuming I could also hold Denmark. It would take a lot of American IPCs to put something in the water that could stand up to 19 submarines. Thoughts?

Do you think building all subs would have worked better had you not gotten within range of those USA bombers?  If you take out London and Scotland, then your fleet is safe from bombers in SZ 109.  I suppose the USA could then try to lure you out by sending some of its fleet out towards you but then you should respond by only sending enough to have slightly better odds.  Of course, Italy and Japan have to be doing their part too to harass the USA.

NO,

Norway major IC for US plus a naval yard in Iceland is a great allied strategy.
Absolutely doesn’t break the game.
Do you really think Larry would put out something that simple?
You can always bomb factories, get super subs, build uboats, or just not let them land there anymore in the first place.

All this about subs and factory bombing is way easier said than done.

First of all, subs are no deterrant to an American air force. Air units cannot be hit by a sub, so if the US takes 4-5 bombers and a destroyer in against your fleet of subs, they are going to get smashed in 1 or 2 turns. Plus, subs are offensive weapons. They roll like crap on defense. Their ideal operation would have them be as out of range of the enemy as possible but be able to attack on your own turn. Or like Larry said, have them as a blockade force in the Baltic area.

However, the Americans don’t need to build ships in the Baltic to screw Germany over. In fact, they typically don’t build ships there in my experience. A major factory in Norway can pump out as many infantry and tanks as they want and ferry them straight into Soviet territories for a sweep into Poland and then Germany. A fleet of subs might dissuade direct building of American ships in the Baltic, but it won’t solve the problem.

I would say that all of these alternatives that have been proposed are wishful thinking. Germany cannot build tons of subs and win the war. Germany cannot fortify France, reinforce Norway, build a navy and even play standoff with Russia, let alone attack them… It is totally impossible.

I don’t know yet what an ideal German strategy would be. But a High Seas fleet cannot be the answer. Germany must really pick and choose where to send thier forces. This may include Italy supporting Germany’s objectives and Japan coming to save the day… Germany will not win the war alone. But because GErmany is the most dangerous, the Allies will naturally gang up on her.

Do you think building all subs would have worked better had you not gotten within range of those USA bombers?  If you take out London and Scotland, then your fleet is safe from bombers in SZ 109.  I suppose the USA could then try to lure you out by sending some of its fleet out towards you but then you should respond by only sending enough to have slightly better odds.  Of course, Italy and Japan have to be doing their part too to harass the USA.

The bomber strike actually happened after America had reclaimed Britain, and the bombers took off from Gibraltar. My first submarine build was on turn four, and by that time the Americans were already knocking with a huge fleet that I couldn’t have taken on without a few more turns of builds. When I was planning the strategy, I knew I was going to give up Britain, but I failed to realize how easily he could hit my surface fleet, thus preventing any naval blocks. I’m not sure what else I could have done besides invest more into my surface fleet, or devote turn 3 to submarine buys as well as turns 4 and 5.

Ultimately I think the strategy should not have been employed under the set of circumstances I faced this game. America completely ignored Japan and poured everything into Europe. Also, rather than trying to defend Britain, the UK threw 3 fighters, 1 tac, a destroyer and an aircraft carrier at my German Navy of 1 CV, 1 BB (damaged), 1CA, 1SS and 2FIG. I actually set that battle up to tempt him with odds that were only slightly in my favor, and he took the bait, losing everything but killing all my units except the BB. The lack of aircraft made Sealion that much easier, but I should have realized that with virtually no navy, I wasn’t really set up for a naval defense strategy anymore. I should have simply started pumping infantry and artillery from turn 3 onwards. The flanking maneuver against Russia worked, the Italian conquest of Africa worked, and Japan was up to 72 ipc/turn by the time we threw in the towel. If I had done what I should have, I think we could have pulled a win, Norway IC or not.

Russia was about to be reduced to 8 IPC/turn, but they had stacks and stacks in Moscow. Rather than going all in for Moscow, I think Japan could have started cranking out an invasion force, forcing the US to spend IPCs in North America, which was undefended. That would be the natural consequence of ignoring the Pacific theater, and it would also prevent them from getting overly aggressive with the units they pumped from any Norway factory. The idea would have been to force their hand in North America right around the time they were about to have enough land units in Europe to break down the German and Italian stacks. A combined Panama seizure / polar express might have worked for that purpose.

The way to win the game, assuming I still held at least Paris, Berlin, Rome, Warsaw and Leningrad, would have been for Japan to just take care of business and knock out the remaining VCs. They are in position to retake Cairo and Stalingrad if the Axis lose them. The only question is whether Germany or Italy will implode before they do it.

I don’t know yet what an ideal German strategy would be. But a High Seas fleet cannot be the answer.

I think it still could be the answer, but only when the right circumstances present themselves.

@hobo:

I’ve only played one game and it became very apparent that the game is seriously broken.  In aa50, it was still possible to win with either side even if the allies concentrated entirely on one axis.  In aag40 however, some of the rules are seriously broken and need to be adjusted for the “global” game.

1. ports are fine in the pacific, but in europe, it’s a disaster for the axis.  There is no way the axis can prevent a large US naval stack with 5 or more transports sitting on the atlantic side of gibraltar.  With air on carriers and bombers in uk, the US could strike anywhere in france, norway, or either german or italian capitals with a stack that could be as large as 20 units very early.

2. japan can’t do enough against north america to prevent the US from going all out kgf by moving all their naval units to europe.  They can be annoying but the US income is too large and the building base too high on continental US to seriously threaten taking w. US.  It would also mean giving up china and the rest of asia to put in a serious enough of an attempt on w. US which means japan’s income is just too small.

3. as discussed here, once the US takes norway, it’s over.  Germany would have to spend too much just to defend their homeland which doesn’t leave enough to do anything against ussr if that player is half way competent.  10 ground units with a stack of air every turn means germany gets picked apart pretty fast.  With the US strike force starting off at gibraltar, it’s impossible for the axis to defend everything with both their homelands are at risk.  Building a major complex in norway first doesn’t help since germany isn’t exactly rolling in dough.  The only way to even make any attempt of holding norway is by giving up any assault on ussr but people can see what would happen there eventually.

4. unlike aa50 where japan can eventually get strong enough and advance quickly enough to actually help germany, aag40 board is too large for japan to do anything to help against kgf.  Anyone looking at the unit counts can see it starts to go downhill for the axis very quickly.  There’s too big of a gap in incomes.

The only thing I can see possibly offsetting these factors are victory cities.  I haven’t lookated at it closely enough, but I guess if victory cities for the axis were set low enough, it might be possible for them to win that way if japan can take out all of asia before germany gets crushed.

This is ridiculous, you played one game bro.

In Europe, it appears that Germany can take Moscow and 8 cities before the U.S. gets involved. Its no guarantee, but its a game.  I realize Russia gets 9 extra IPCs in Global, which is 18 extra infantry in Moscow by turn 6. But in reality its only 1 more infantry than the 2 free ones they would normally get. Germany may still seize Moscow if its only 6 extra units.

Can the Japanese air force fly to Europe by turn 8 to sweep the sea of ships? 28 planes can hit a 10 stack in Norway and clear it in 1 combat round while only losing 3-4 planes. Eventually you will run out of air units, but how many rounds will that buy you? If the U.S. is focused on Europe, seems like you won’t need them in the Pacific.

Just a thought.

@JamesAleman:

In Europe, it appears that Germany can take Moscow and 8 cities before the U.S. gets involved. Its no guarantee, but its a game.  I realize Russia gets 9 extra IPCs in Global, which is 18 extra infantry in Moscow by turn 6. But in reality its only 1 more infantry than the 2 free ones they would normally get. Germany may still seize Moscow if its only 6 extra units.

Can the Japanese air force fly to Europe by turn 8 to sweep the sea of ships? 28 planes can hit a 10 stack in Norway and clear it in 1 combat round while only losing 3-4 planes. Eventually you will run out of air units, but how many rounds will that buy you? If the U.S. is focused on Europe, seems like you won’t need them in the Pacific.

Just a thought.

1. I love how 28 planes survive until J6 and their absence in the pacific isn’t taken advantage of
2. Larry’s latest setup changes remove 9 of those planes

We played a game of Global this weekend.  We made it a rule that new factories could only be built on originally controlled territories.  Captured major factories become minor.  Captured minor factories were removed.  US has enough IPC’s that it should have to transport.  Besides, Sherman Tanks rolling out of Oslo?  How realistic is that?

Otherwise, I agree with IL.  US factory in Norway is high probability lights out.

@BlueIguana:

We played a game of Global this weekend.  We made it a rule that new factories could only be built on originally controlled territories.  Captured major factories become minor.  Captured minor factories were removed.  US has enough IPC’s that it should have to transport.  Besides, Sherman Tanks rolling out of Oslo?  How realistic is that?

Otherwise, I agree with IL.  US factory in Norway is high probability lights out.

DId you also apply it to the Chinese territories that have Chinese roundels printed on them but start under Japanese rule?

Do you think that if Japan moves fast and crushes India it can beat the allies to Moscow or will they be too late?