How did playtesters miss J1 attack?

I found a much better discussion on this J1 attack business at Harris’ site, complete with pictures  :-)

http://www.harrisgamedesign.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=36&t=2155

There are actually some allied strats and justifications for waiting to attack as J on this thread…

Although the conclusions are still - J1 Jap advantage, J delay Allied advantage, which brings us full circle.  Why in the world would you wait as Japan??  Maybe I’ll try it when I play a newbie or something.

For those interested, I have some ideas as the allies I’d like to try out.  Let me know if you are interested.

P.S.
kaufschtick, my invitation to play you and your super/uber/unbeatable moves still stands, even if just so that I can see how exactly the whole thing plays out so I can try to think of how I would kick you in the pants if you used it a second time.

I’ll play you KFJ, but it won’t be Kauf’s tactics, as I prefer my own.  Let me know.

@gamerman01:

I found a much better discussion on this J1 attack business at Harris’ site, complete with pictures  :-)

http://www.harrisgamedesign.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=36&t=2155

There are actually some allied strats and justifications for waiting to attack as J on this thread…

Although the conclusions are still - J1 Jap advantage, J delay Allied advantage, which brings us full circle.  Why in the world would you wait as Japan??  Maybe I’ll try it when I play a newbie or something.

Well, I mean, if that thread just goes full circle, it’s more of the same as we have here.

If the best Japanese move is to attack J1, and Japan goes first in the game…

@kungfujew:

P.S.
kaufschtick, my invitation to play you and your super/uber/unbeatable moves still stands, even if just so that I can see how exactly the whole thing plays out so I can try to think of how I would kick you in the pants if you used it a second time.  :p

Look, I came on here to find strategies for the Allies in this game, and to see if others were seeing the same high ratio of Japanese wins in the game as we were. To reinforce or debunk our suspicion that the game was broken. If you want to see how this thing plays out, I hate to tell you that there is no script to what we’ve seen. I’ve laid out the basics of what the Japanese pursue already, you can go back and read them.

@jim010:

I’ll play you KFJ, but it won’t be Kauf’s tactics, as I prefer my own.  Let me know.

See, Jim is doing the same type of thing, different meathod.

As far as the moves I have described in my posts,  they are not my “super/uber/unbeatable” moves. They are moves that my friend and I (mostly my best friend) came to develope over many playings of the game. It’s not the moves that are so tough for the Allies to overcome, it’s the general situation and strategy.

You seem to be missing the point that I didn’t come here looking for an opponent, although I’m not opposed to the idea if friendly relations develope with folks on here.  :-)

When my friends and I play, we play to have fun, we drinks lots of beer, smoke a lot of cigars (usually), and have a blast. We aren’t worried about super/uber moves, or really who wins or looses. We do like to play the game well, don’t get me wrong, but mostly we’re looking for a good game and good company.

In answer to your “invitation”, I only play games amongst friends.

So if I don’t accept your invitation, you’ll know why.

I think you double posted.

… hmm … did the order of the posts change, or is it me?

He could be wrong!?!

Not again!!! :-o

You should just be happy that he’s still making it, and not freak out about every little issue.

@jim010:

… hmm … did the order of the posts change, or is it me?

I don’t know what you’re talking about…. :lol:

What are you smokin’ over there Jim?  :-D

Somebody cut Jim off, I think he’s had a little too much… :-D :-D :-D :wink:

I smoke the good stuff … I can hear colours now!!

@jim010:

I smoke the good stuff … I can hear colours now!!

Focus Jim, focus, we need you sober in this thread!  :-D :-D

In all seriousness, I now know of 3 Jap strategies that will win 3/4 against equal opponents, in my opinion.  One of them even decid3es the game in the first turn!  That’s 75%.  Pretty high.

For me, it is simple - bid.  Tounaments usually use a bid system anyway, and it is the best way to balance not just a game, but 2 opponents as well.  Also makes for much less scripted gameplay - at least until the optimal bid and placement is found.

That being said, my last couple of games on here have shown me a couple of things for the allies that worked out a bit may give better results (notice I didn’t say an equal chance of winning).  I haven’t played Allies in a while and would like to try these ideas out.  Takers?

For me, I’ve got vacation coming up next week, and my good drinking buddy out in Dayton is off from Monday night to Thursday night, so We’ll be playing the US immediate 40 a bunch more.

I’m with my good friend on the immediate 40 vs the bid right now. He brings up the good point that immediate 40 is only one simple change to the game, and it doesn’t force the game into scripted play.

We’ve only got 8 games in like this so far; but so far, so good. They’ve all been competitive and fun.

Plus, the US player gets to decide what to spend the now added extra 40 IPCs on on the first turn, so In a way, it’s kinda like a 40 IPC bid to the US.

So far, we’ve been using the extra US1 income for a second US1 CV and three transports. The US1 buy is for 57 IPC, which we get 2 x CVs, 3 x Transports, and there is 4 left over for an arty.

That’s really not too much, and is the only change to the game we make. Everything else stays with the OOB rules.

Well, Harris’ answers were certainly interesting.

Larry, Japan is indeed overpowered in PAC1940.
A good Japanese player will win the vast majority of the time using OOB rules.

As observed in other threads on this site, a mediocre Japan can easily fritter away its advantage, giving the win to the allies. This is the source of doubt.

A tournament-level Japan player will CRUSH the allies after a J1 attack. The initial advantage is just too much to overcome.

Plain and simple, if you think that the Japanese turn one attack is to powerful then make a Japanese turn 2 or 3 attack.  If you beat a videogame on easy mode and keep playing it over and over again on easy mode you can’t really complain.  The option is already there to up the difficulty.  Our gaming group have never once used the same opening attack twice in a row so we don’t have that issue, and we’re not the biggest fans of the turn on attack anyways, cause we find it forces Japan to race forward before all it’s peives are in place

Also, you want more than vague assurances of pairity, give me a detailed script to follow and I’ll give you back what I would do to counter it.  You gave a basic 10 point 10 turn summary and we tried it out four times and the allies won three times.  I’m not offering to play you to just to beat you, but because you asked for help and I was interested it helping you figured out an allied plan to beat you Japanese moves.  That’s the only way I’ll be able to remotely convince you, 'cause no matter what anyone says you keep replying “the Japanese can counter that”.  So either have a game/strategy session or stop asking.

Jim, I’ll play you to try out new moves if you like, let me know when and how and we’ll do battle.

Well I played as Japan again. Pleaded with them to let me play USA, but one guy really wanted to try USA. So it was me vs 3 opponents, 2 had played before, the third an experienced A&A player.
Gave them the immediate 40 IPC boost to USA as game balance.

USA player was overconfident and brought out his initial fleet to Hawaii. Was building loaded CVs+ mixed DDs, SS and occasional CA each turn. I moved a third of my fleet to Truk to stare him down.

He attacked the third of my fleet at truk (plus 4 fighters scrambled on defense). Should have been a mutual wipe out but he rolled amazing dice (and I rolled miserably, 1 hit for 6 4’s, 3 3’s, 2 2’s)  and crushed my fleet. I had built 6 SS turn 1 so I was able to counter attack effectively.
He continued to offer up his US fleet piecemeal so there was never a chance for the allies.

UK used CV build turn 1. He decided to take out 4 Japanese TT’s UK2 but the net effect was DD, CA, CV, 2 fighters lost for 4 TT’s + 1 DD + 1 sub.
At that point UK was out of the game.

Final turn (I think J6) I captured the last China Territory with its final defensive stack, India with UK final defensive stack, Sydney(under-defended but with
ANZAC in a position to retake) and completely destroyed USN off Hawaii.
Never had 4 decisive attacks against all 4 allies on same turn before.

With the exception of a couple of China attacks, Japan had average or worse dice the entire game. It lasted about 3 hours.

@kungfujew:

Also, you want more than vague assurances of pairity, give me a detailed script to follow and I’ll give you back what I would do to counter it.  You gave a basic 10 point 10 turn summary and we tried it out four times and the allies won three times.

OK, I’ll post the opening Japanese move we’re using:

_J1 buy= 3 x transports & 1 x Arty, bank 1.

JPN BMR FROM SHANTUNG TO SZ 37, LANDS IN KWANGSI
1 JPN BMR FROM JAPAN TO SZ 37, LANDS KWANGSI
1 JPN BMR FROM JAPAN TO SZ 47, LANDS TRUK
JPN BMR FROM MANCHURIA TO SZ 37, LANDS KWANGSI

JPN FTR & DB FROM CV IN SZ 33 MOVES TO THE LAND BATTLE IN THE PI AND LANDS ON 1 CV MOVING TO SZ 35 FROM SZ 6. THE CV FROM SZ33 MOVES TO SZ 44 AND RECOVERS THE FTR & DB FROM THE CV THAT STARTED IN SZ 6 AND MOVED TO SZ 35. THESE TWO CVs EFFECTIVELY “SWAP” PLANES IN THE PROCESS.

JPN DD FROM SZ 33 MOVES TO SZ 47 TO ATTACK THE ANZAC SS THERE ALONG WITH THE BMR FROM JAPAN.

JPN SS IN SZ 6 MOVES TO SZ 26 AND KILLS THE US TRANSPORT THERE

2 X JPN TRANSPORTS IN SZ 6 MOVE TO THE PI AND TAKE 2 X MEN & 2 X ARTY. I LIKE TO TAKE A TANK INSTEAD OF TWO ARTY, BUT I DON’T THINK IT INCREASES THE ODDS ANY, AND I HAVE SWITCHED OVER TO TIMS (BB) MOVE OF TAKING TWO ARTY, AND SAVING THE TANK TO MOVE ON THE TRANSPORTS TO ATTACK SINGAPORE ON J3.

JPN TRANSPORT IN SZ 33 MOVES TO SZ 44WITH THE TROOP ON TRUK & GRABS THE TROOP ON PAULAU AND TAKES CELEBES.

JPN BB IN SZ 33 MOVES TO SZ 44

ALL THE REST OF THE JPN FLEET MOVES TO SZ 35, WITH THE EXCEPTION OF THE DD IN SZ 19, WHICH MOVES TO SZ 6, AND THE JPN SS IN SZ 19, WHICH SOMETIMES MOVES TO SZ 6, SOMETIMES TO SZ35. FIELDERS CHOICE.

THE JPN FTR & DB FROM THE 2ND CARRIER IN SZ 6 JOIN THE NAVAL BATTLE IN SZ 35.

3 MEN & ARTY FROM KWANGSI MOVE TO ATTACK YUNNAN WITH THE FTR & DB FROM SHANTUNG, WHICH LAND IN KWANGSI

JPN FTR FROM TAIWAN TO SZ 37, LANDS IN KWANGSI SIAM IF IT SURVIVES.

2 INF & ARTY FROM JEHOL MOVE TO CHARHAR

THIS IS ANOTHER AREA OF CHOICE. I USED TO LIKE TO MOVE 1 X INF FROM KAINGSI TO HUNAN, THE OTHER 2 INF & ARTY TO HONG KONG. BB (TIM) LIKES TO MOVE 2 INF FROM KAINGSI TO HUNAN, AND 1 INF & ARTY TO HONG KONG. I’M LIKING TIMS MOVE BETTER AND BETTER, AS IT SETS UP MORE TROOPS TO ATTACK YUNNAN ON J2.

SHANTUNG INF TO ANHWE

KIANGSU INF TO ANHWE

ALL MANCHURI LAND UNITS TO JEHOL (INCLUDING THE AA GUN), MECH INF TO ANHWE.

KOREA INF TO MANCHURIA

SIAM INF TO VIETNAM. BB LIKES TO TAKE JUST 1 INF, I LIKE TAKING THEM BOTH TO HAVE AVAILABLE TO COUNTERATTCK YUNNAN IF NEEDED ON J2.

1 FTR & 1 DB FROM MANCHURIA TO HUNAN, LAND KWANGSI

FTR OKINAWA TO HONG KONG, LAND KWANGSI

2 X FTR & 1 DB  FROM MANCHURIA TO HONG KONG, LAND KWANGSI

2 X FTR & 2 X DB FROM JAPAN TO TRUK

3 X FTR & 2 X DB STAY AT JAPAN

6 X INF & 1 ARMOR REMAIN ON JAPAN, GAINING THE J1 ARTY

THE 3 X TRANSPORTS COME ON AT JAPAN, OBVIOUSLY

JAPAN GOES TO 41~~/42~~ DEPENDING ON WHETHER THEY TAKE HUNAN._

@kungfujew:

Also, you want more than vague assurances of pairity, give me a detailed script to follow and I’ll give you back what I would do to counter it.

Start typing.

And don’t get the idea that I’m at all interested in playing you here. As I said before, I only play amongst friends, and I don’t do the online games at all. If I can’t sit down and drink a beer with you, then I have absolutely no interest at all in playing a game with you.

Beyond this point in the game, it is all speculation as to what the die rolls will be.

@calvinhobbesliker:

The ftr from Formosa must land on Siam. It’s 3 moves to Z37, and there’s no airbase

Nice catch! :-)

Damn, I thought I had the whole move memorized! Not quite! I haven’t even had a beer yet, so I can’t blame it on that! :lol:

Oh well, I’m on vacation as of 4 hours ago, might as well go grab a cold one now! :-P

Formosa is Taiwan, right? Or is Taiwan Hainan? I get those mixed up. I thought the fighter started on Hainan, and thought that was Taiwan, but you’re right, that ftr starts on Formosa, which may wind up being Taiwan after all! :-o :-D

Formosa = Taiwan

@gamerman01:

Formosa = Taiwan

Thanks, correction noted.