Re: Field Marshal Games Pieces Project Discussion thread

Note also that the Taiho and Shinano do look much alike; IL, are you sure you’re not confusing the Shokaku with the Taiho?  Shokaku looks nothing like the Shinano and nothing like oob!

If we insist that FMG shouldn’t do oob, I’d say the logical choice for US BB is still a new BB: Washington and South Dakota were battle-winners at Guadalcanal, but no old BB’s were brought into action until late in the war.  Note that: new-BB’s were decisive early war battle-winners, but old-BB’s only had a brief moment to shine 2 years later.  Ironic, perhaps, but true!

Oh, and take another look at the oob “Yamato” mast… it’s not just Kongo-high, it’s Fuso-high!  Two quick cuts of an exacto to remove the overhang on the stern and you have an old-style pagoda-BB.

@knp7765:

I find it funny that certain people are saying that FMG should make “early war” pieces because many of our games start in 1940.  However, the majority of people ALSO want the P-51 Mustang for the US fighter piece and it didn’t come out until 1944.  So all the US equipment should be the older, less reliable stuff EXCEPT for the fighter, which was not only “late war” but also the best fighter in the war.  Nonsense.

I agree with you Dr Larsen.  FMG pieces should be all of the best equipment that each nation had to offer, like Iowa and Yamato BBs, and not the older, less reliable models.  Let coachofmany include some of those models in his supplement sets.  OR, once all nations are finished, perhaps FMG could come out with new, early war sets.  For these first sets though, use the best models that were actually used in numbers during the war.  In other words, for example, the German fighter should be the Me109 or Fw190 and NOT the Me262.  Sure, the Me262 was probably the best fighter since it was a jet, but there were many more Me109s and Fw190s.

First P-51 Mustang aerial victory was in Aug. 1942 by an American flying for the RCAF. The first U.S. unit to fly the Mustang was the 154th observation squadron in Morocco in April,May 1943.

FMG stick with the iconic units that will sell best.  The early war pieces can always be made later or supplemented by coachofmany.  Do not be swayed to make exclusively early war models or you will not sell as many as you would like.

All this late war/early war model griping about the p51 seems to ignore something that should be obvious…  If one or the other (fmg or oob) is early or late war, it doesn’t matter if a P51 D is in with FMG early war naval units…

'Cause, duh, we already have an early war fighter!  The freaking P38 was in service in mid '41 and the only plane in production throughout the entirety of the war.

That said, all this early war/late war mumbo jumbo was moot with the German units.  At this point we don’t have an FW190 for late war, or a Scharnhorst for BB, etc etc etc.  Doubles are already in play.

I guess I’m the only one that’s WAY more concerned about the color of the US units.  The combat dice green is… well…  not MY favorite.  But I guess I’m alone.

@kcdzim:

I guess I’m the only one that’s WAY more concerned about the color of the US units.  The combat dice green is… well…  not MY favorite.  But I guess I’m alone.

I’m hoping that also FMG also produces a OOB green along with combat dice like they announced that they will do with the gray and OOB black German versions.

I for one would buy both.

I really want FMG to match OOB colors.

Otherwise, these might as well be xeno games pieces - I’ve never had a problem with the quality of the pieces, but the variety. I.e., give us more stuff!

@Imperious:

Do not be swayed to make exclusively early war models or you will not sell as many as you would like.

Nobody said this. What was actually said was to make the most common unit that fought most of the time and avoid models that look like OOB. The other side if you read their posts just wants late war units which is extreme point of view. My point of view is most flexible, as some units may be early, mid, or late war.

Because we are favoring the most common and unique look of the unit that saw the most actions in the war, this can be from any part of the war.

P-51 midwar
JU-87 early war
Tiger tank late war
Lexington early war
Liberty ship midwar
Kongo early war

Don’t pick on my quotes IL, I’m not trying to start anything with you.  I do not advocate the Pershing, or any other dumb unit choices, read my posts.  I was trying to let FMG know that some people are not upset with his unit choices.  That’s all.

@reloader-1:

I really want FMG to match OOB colors.

Otherwise, these might as well be xeno games pieces - I’ve never had a problem with the quality of the pieces, but the variety. I.e., give us more stuff!

Agreed.  I’m waiting for OOB colors or something close to it.  I hope the Germany black units come out soon because I’m not that interested in buying the Gray units.

Isn’t the  P38 an early war fighter for the United States? So Fmg would be filling in the gap between early and late if they were to produce Mustangs. So I still push for P51 Mustang. i find it kind of funny how FMG hasn’t replied about the Americans in a while, i wonder if its already to late to make these changes =/

If we followed what Larson wants the standard German fighter should be the Horton flying wing or He-162, and the standard German tank should be the Maus. Yea good move.  Just inflate the units like Pershing tank of which a whole 20 or so saw service in the last month of the war. Lets just ignore all the units that fought in 1939-1943 and keep making games based on 1940 using units that didn’t exist till 1944 or 1945 like the Pershing tank. because we must ignore old units with distinguished service records and hype stupid drawing board uber late war units that “could have seen action”

Dude, IL, you’re simply misrepresenting my points entirely.  I’ve already conceded that maybe the Pershing would be best as a “tech” unit, and offered the Late-War Sherman and M36 as reasonable compromises, both of which say plenty of action, and both of which were produced in greater numbers than EITHER Tiger variation.  But note that the Pershing was far from being a “stupid drawing board” unit.  It was not at all a technological stretch for the US automotive industry and was only delayed by poor Ordnance Dept decision-making.  Here’s a quote from Wikipedia on the events that prevented the Pershing’s fielding in time for Normandy:

Gen. Lesley J. McNair was head of Army Ground Forces. McNair, an artilleryman, championed the tank destroyer doctrine within the U.S. Armored Forces. Tanks were to support the infantry, exploit breakthroughs, and avoid tank-to-tank battles. Enemy tanks were to be engaged by the tank destroyer force, composed of a mix of towed and self-propelled tank destroyers. Towed “tank destroyers” were towed antitank guns. Self-propelled tank destroyers, called “gun motor carriages”, were similar to tanks but were lightly armored with open topped turrets. The tank destroyers were supposed to be faster and carry a more powerful anti-tank gun than tanks; armor was sacrificed for speed. The tank destroyer doctrine played a large role in the lack of urgency in improving the firepower of the M4 Sherman, as the emphasis was on its role as infantry support.[37]

McNair approved the 76 mm upgrade to the M4 Sherman and production of the 90 mm M36 tank destroyer, but he staunchly opposed development of the T26 and other proposed heavy tanks during the crucial period of 1943 because he saw no “battle need” for them.

In mid-1943, Lt. General Devers, commander of U.S. forces in the European Theater of Operations (ETO), asked for 250 T26s for use in the invasion of France. McNair refused. Devers appealed to General George Marshall, the Army Chief of Staff. Marshall summarily ordered the tanks to be provided to the ETO as soon as they could be produced. Soon after the Normandy invasion, General Dwight D. Eisenhower urgently requested heavy tanks (now designated M26 Pershing), but McNair’s continued opposition delayed production. General Marshall intervened again and the tanks were eventually brought into production. However, only a few saw combat on February 25, 1945, too late to have any effect on the battlefield.[38]

This was no “pipe-dream” flying wing prototype here!  This was actually technology that was ready and available for production, but was held up by the stubbornness of a few bureaucratic big-wigs.  Since the Germans did take the step to field a very comparable tank, I’m prepared to say, yes, give the Germans a heavy tank tech for free as a national advantage and make the US invest in it, but I’d also like to see the A&A armchair generals out there not be forced to make the same decisions as old head-full-of-air General McNair.  But since FMG is only doing two tanks, I’ll concede, OK, let’s compromise on the Late-War Sherman and the M36, both of which saw plenty of action and both of which gives FMG some differentiation beyond oob, which in nearly every other category seems to be your over-riding concern!  An early-war Sherman give FMG yet more oob clones…

At the scale of these ships having any japanese carrier that looks like a British carrier is not good enough. It must have the classic small superstructure and pylons under the front and rear flight deck.  If you had to draw a typical japanese carrier it might be the Akagi or Shoho. IDK as long as the Carrier has that classic Japanese “look” to it, easily identifiable….

Yes, I conceded that Taiho looks much like Shinano, but Shokaku looks very different than either and has those typically “Japanese” characteristics, like an open hanger and a small superstructure, without being a mishapen-looking ship like Kaga or Akagi, and is an all-around more-impressive ship than the small, mediocre Hiryu/Soryu/Unryu sisters.  It’s the logical choice for a ship that Typifies the best that Japan produced… and both of them had long and distinguished careers, almost rivalling the Enterprise and Saratoga on the US side… unlike Hiryu, Soryu, Kaga, and Agaki, whose main role was to all get sunk together at Midway…

Now, on the US side, the fact that the New BB’s look much alike is simply an argument for using the oob as North Carolina class/ South Dakota class treaty-BB stand-in’s, whereas FMG doing an Iowa then gives us a true upgrade option.  I just can’t see using the “garbage” oob units (as you describe them) as “upgrades” over FMG’s excellent pieces.  FMG’s pieces should BE the upgrades.  Which is also why I can’t see using the “garbage” oob Yamato as an upgrade over what I expect to be an impressive FMG Japanese BB piece.

Of course, I wish he was doing 2 BB’s for both the US and Japan, one old & one new, but it looks as though that isn’t to be… but then that’s where hopefully Coach will come in to do the old-BB’s.

BOTTOM LINE: I’m not arguing for FMG doing anything rare or not built (you’ll note that even the Pershing was my 3rd option).  I’m arguing for him doing the best units done in quantity:

M36: more made than Tiger I’s, 3x as many as Tiger II’s

Late-War Shermans: more made than all German tanks combined

Iowa: 4 made, as many as any class since WW1, iconic ship, Halsey’s flagship, ship upon which Japan’s very surrender ceremony was performed…

Baltimore: 14 made, as many as Japan had heavy cruisers at the war’s beginning, not including the very similar Wichita and Fargo classes…

Sumner: 58 made

Essex: 24 made, pivotal ship in winning the war

P51: 'nuff said

bomber: B-29 (3,970 made, pivotal in the Pacific War, offers a “heavy bomber” or “long-range bomber” tech upgrade option) or B-24 (18,482 made, pivotal in both theaters)

The M36 is a poor choice in my opinion, the M10 and M18 saw more action.  Id prefer either of those models to an M36.

That would be the Akagi and kaga. These carriers had the best pilots and trained crews. Poor strategy is not taking anything away from them.

Japans only real naval victory came from them.  If you want to compare the service record of the Taiho to the Akagi, you got an uphill argument.

Taiho:

Dude, I’m not arguing for the Taiho.  I’m arguing for the Shokaku, which has all the features you’re looking for, including 2 ships with long and distinguished records.  What “victory” are you talking about for the 4 sunk at Midway?  Pearl Harbor?  Both Shokaku’s were there!  They were there through every important phase from Pearl Harbor to Leyte except Midway.  There is no measure you can choose based on the Kaga or Akagi’s war record, quality, experience, etc., that the 2 Shokaku’s can’t do you one better!  And they were better ships on top of it all!

On cruisers, the oob Portland looks just like the larger Northampton class and almost like your recomendation, the New Orleans class.  One of the newer flush-deck designs… Wichita/Baltimore/Oregon City CA’s or Brooklyn/St. Louis/Cleveland/Fargo CL’s would be far more distinctive from oob.

Note on the distinctitive US WW2 ship “style”: All post-'36 US designs, BB, CB, CA, CL, DD… all of them, had that classic flush-deck look and all of those flush-deckers just simply “look right” next to each other.  These are the “Flush-deck” classes, in order, by category, with not-builts and too-late-for-actions noted in parens and my pics for FMG bolded, FYI:

BB: NC/SD/Iowa/Montana (last not built)

CB: Alaska

CA: Wichita/Baltimore/Oregon City/Des Moines (last too late for action)

CL: Brooklyn/St. Louis/Cleveland/Fargo/Worcester (last too late for action)

CLAA: Atlanta/Oakland/Juneau

DD: Fletcher/Sumner/ Gearing

I think FMG should do all “flush deck” US ships designs, as they would look like a set, like they “belong” together and aren’t just a hodge-podge collection.  Not that he has to do the last one in the line if it was an “almost built” or a “too late for action” model… And I don’t think he’s interested in the “tweener” CB or CLAA categories.  But there are 2-3 choices in every other category that saw plenty of action. Then he or someone can then later do a set of early-war and/or rare/ tech units.  But my bolded recomendations all were built in #'s and saw decisive action.  Yes, they’re all “late war” but the US didn’t even get into the fight until the “mid-to-late” war period had started.  Remember, Pearl Harbor was at the end of 1941, not its beginning… the end of 1942 saw the US and the end of its first of 4 years at war.  Ships coming out in 1943 aren’t that “late” from a US perspective.

Obviously the Sherman must be the tank. no other iconic tank would look right.

Yes, but WHICH Sherman.  I argue for a later model 76mm longer barreled model.  At in a welded rather than a cast hull and the “Easy 8” suspension, and you’ve set it apart from oob without going to something rare in the least.

Similarly, the M36 is much like the M10, but with a better-looking turret, which FMG might be the only one to do justice to it!  Basically, it’s the same thing with a turret swap, which is why they were able to adapt so fast upon meeting so many Panthers and get so many in the field so fast.  (Remember, more made than Tiger I’s and 3x as many as Tiger II’s…)