Axis and Allies first turns - Germany

[Guest]

@newpaintbrush:

Why shouldn’t Germany be able to do a G4-G5 TRN purchase?

Why will the Med be a dead zone to Germany?

Why hsould any built TRNs immediately be sunk?

Why should Africa be lost early?

What are the Allied moves that result in those results?

If you don;t know, I’ll show you in a game sometime…  :evil:

HINT:  USA and UK to Algeria on Turn 2…

[Nix]

build an extra BB and US/UK can forget landing in algeria

[Guest]

@Nix:

build an extra BB and US/UK can forget landing in algeria

With an extra German BB, I won;t have to… Russia will be in Balkans/Eastern in R3 after Germany spends the equivalent of an entire Russian build on a single naval unit.

And 1 BB against what the US/UK can bring to SZ12 on T2 is NOT that much of a deterent…
2 loaded AC’s
2 DSTs
1 BB
4 TRN
1 SUB

And that is a CONSERVATIVE estimate.

[Nix]

You can´t get the BB, it´s falls short of SZ12.

But sure spend IPC to buy 2 Ac´s that you will lose allong with the Figs if you move there, fine by me, and Russia will only be in Ukraine in R2, will trade Balkans 1 round and then be forced back again, and must guard Cauccasus from the 2 trn, 2 BB med fleet.

Not to mention japan is Unrestrained.

[Jennifer]

I’ve already shown how Russia in the Balkans is not necessarily a bad thing for Germany.  Why you continue to use it as a basis for your arguement is incomprehensible.

Sure.  Russia has 40 IPC.  Whatever.  Germany has Africa, England and a wall big enough to stop America in her tracks.  Japan has everything up to Moscow, Australia, New Zealand, Madagascar and Hawaii.

Russia’s 40 IPC going to mean squat against the Axis making 100+?

[Guest]

Another matehmatical error there Jen.

If Russia has reached Balkans/Eastern…
Russia will be in the ballpark of 32-35, dependign on if they get one or both of Eastern/Balkans (assuming loss of SFE/Bury/Yakut in the east)
Germany will be up 5-7 in Africa as of R3 at most
Japan can’t take Australia and New Zealand by R3
But UK can grab Norway for the fun of it by then and still have a major fleet and forces in Algeria (using the above example).

So, after R3:
Russia is at $32 (going cosnervative and they only got one of Balkans/Eastern and Japan in Yakut/Sinkiang/India)
Germany at $34 (up $7 in Africa, down $13 in Europe)
UK at $23
Japan at $40
USA at $38

Now, getting beyond teh specifics of hte example I was posting…
If Russia is at $40, that means that Germany has LOST $16 IPC.  Even if they take all of Africa, that is still net negative income for Germany.  And that assumes Japan took nothing from USSR.  But since SFE/Bury/Yakut are likely to fall at a minimum, then Russia at $40 means Germany has lost $19 in europe to Russia… Russia would be in SOUTHERN, and Germany would be at $32 (or $29 if UK took Norway).
And even if Japan has pushed out all the way to Persia and has taken Australia/NZ/Hawaii (and even Alaska), Japan would be at $47.

That means that, with major Russian expansion as outlined above, the Axis would be at $76 or so, NOT $100.
You need to work on your math skills.

[newpaintbrush]

@ncscswitch:

@newpaintbrush:

Why shouldn’t Germany be able to do a G4-G5 TRN purchase?

Why will the Med be a dead zone to Germany?

Why hsould any built TRNs immediately be sunk?

Why should Africa be lost early?

What are the Allied moves that result in those results?

If you don;t know, I’ll show you in a game sometime…   :evil:

HINT:  USA and UK to Algeria on Turn 2…

Even if the Germans do NOT move the Med fleet west, I find it very difficult for the Allies to crack the Med, because of the heavy presence of German air.

Please elaborate.  What are you doing, building 5 x sub with the US, and carrier for UK?

[newpaintbrush]

@Jennifer:

Maybe, but how many resources have you forced the Allies to commit compared to how much of your own have you committed?  And if they screw up, you’re ready to pounce.

You commit 31 IPC.

You have not forced the Allies to commit anything.

Of course, if they screw up, you pounce, tho.

[Jennifer]

@ncscswitch:

Another matehmatical error there Jen.

If Russia has reached Balkans/Eastern…
Russia will be in the ballpark of 32-35, dependign on if they get one or both of Eastern/Balkans (assuming loss of SFE/Bury/Yakut in the east)
Germany will be up 5-7 in Africa as of R3 at most
Japan can’t take Australia and New Zealand by R3
But UK can grab Norway for the fun of it by then and still have a major fleet and forces in Algeria (using the above example).

So, after R3:
Russia is at $32 (going cosnervative and they only got one of Balkans/Eastern and Japan in Yakut/Sinkiang/India)
Germany at $34 (up $7 in Africa, down $13 in Europe)
UK at $23
Japan at $40
USA at $38

So basically, you are making my point stronger by saying Russia is even weaker then my off the top of my head guess?  That’s not a good way to make your arguement, dear.

So we have:

Russia: Up: Norway, W. Russia, Belorussia, E. Europe, Balkans (Down: SFE, Bury, Yak, Evenki, Novo, Kazakh)
Germany: Up: Egypt, Italian Africa, FEQ, FWA, Congo, Kenya, S. Africa (Down: Norway, W. Russia, Belorussia, E. Europe, Balkans)
England: Up: Nothing.  (Down: Egypt, Italian Africa, FEQ, FWA, India, Australia, Madagascar, New Zealand, Kenya, S. Africa)
Japan: Up: Australia, New Zealand, Madagascar, India, Evenki, Yakut, SFE, Buryatia, Novosibirsk, Kazakh, Sinkiang, China
America: Up: Nothing (Down Sinkiang, China)

Totals in 3 to 5 rounds:
Russia: 32 IPC
Germany: 33 IPC
England: 14 IPC
Japan: 49 IPC
America: 38 IPC

And that, of course, is assuming that England doesn’t fall to Germany which would give the Axis + 8 and the Allies - 8

[Mork Far]

Quote from: Mork Far on March 13, 2007, 08:07:00 AM
I’ve always enjoyed alot of tanks, with the occasional bomber to raid russias IC’s

as iv’e played (with fairly unproductive opponents in my opinion) germany will hold off russia for a few turns. and invade UK if opportunity presents itself( once had him attack with all of his planes, which he had been constantly purchasing, and a mass majority of them died in AA then the rest from r1 of combat ) meanwhile J1 attack hawaii and exapand in mainland, J2 attack and conquer East US and continue expansion in mainland. J3 invade russia with tanks and planes(get his 4 xtra units out of the way first) then blitz through russia slowly crippling. also slowly crippling US (not able to invade germany due to threat by me  ) so on and so forth.

I note that you mentioned that you believed you had fairly unproductive opponents.  Frankly, if the US player lost Eastern US on J2, they are not “unproductive”, unless by “unproductive”, you mean horribly bad.  The only reason for losing even Western US on J2 would be the destruction of at least three of Japan’s battleships and carriers, plus fighters and transports, plus retake from Central US or Western Canada or Mexico on the following turn.

yes they are horribly bad. so what would be a better way to take it if he actually reinforced it?wait till J3 with around 5trns and the remains of my fleet and navy.

[goldenbearflyer]

And that, of course, is assuming that England doesn’t fall to Germany which would give the Axis + 8 and the Allies - 8

IMHO, that’s a safe assumption.  It’s not really “costing” UK anything to build up ground units to protect its island, because normally it would build those anyway to plan for invasion.  Plus, the US is probably using the island as a staging ground.  The Allies can kill two birds with one stone, while Germany throws money in the water.  Meanwhile, for every tr or sub Germany builds, that’s 8IPCs of ground units Germany did not buy to use against Russia.  I agree with ncscsswitch that Russia at 32-40 IPCs will be too much for Germany to handle.  On the other hand, units parked in UK cannot also take Africa, so it must slow the Allies down at least a bit.

Nevertheless, you have played this game much more than I have, Jennifer, so I will try out the strategy you describe.  In my other thread, as you know, I am experimenting with the Kreigsmarine.

[newpaintbrush]

Argh, teh quotez, Mork!  Who said what?

–

If the US player is not careless, you CANNOT take and hold Western US with Japan.  Well, OK, actually, the US player might not be careless, but then the US player would have to be an idiot.

Basically - the Western US can produce 10 units a turn, right?  So you have to get around a block of at least 10 infantry.  If it’s early game, there will probably be 2 US fighters in range of Western US at E. Canada.  So you will have to get around a block of 10 inf 2 fighter, at least.  At LEAST.  And let’s not forget that unless your fighters and bomber are already considerably west, they cannot attack the Western US and land, unless you already control Alaska or W. Canada, both of which should make the US player think of being invaded anyways.

So how can you overwhelm 10 inf 2 fighter?  Why, bring 6-7 transports and fighters and battleship support shots.  But that is such a GIGANTIC force, and requires such unusual distribution of forces (i.e. you will have to transport stuff to Japan, or at least Burytia, and the Allied player should see any invasion coming a MILE away), the US will probably have TWO rounds to prepare, so that’s TWENTY infantry.

But by the time you build a force that can invade and take down TWENTY infantry, you ought to be facing at least THIRTY infantry.

See what I mean?  It’s nearly impossible.

Even if you go Operation Hollywood (it’s a game plan for attacking western US), that’s really in response to a very underdefended US that committed to very particular moves.  It is useless to just say that you’re going to go ahead and capture Western US with Japan, just because it’s so easy to prevent.

The one way in which you CAN take Western US against non-moronic opponents involves long range aircraft.  But even then, you can’t be playing with Larry Harris Tournament Rules.

This is getting off topic tho.

[goldenbearflyer]

meanwhile J1 attack hawaii and exapand in mainland, J2 attack and conquer East US and continue expansion in mainland. J3 invade russia with tanks and planes(get his 4 xtra units out of the way first) then blitz  through russia slowly crippling.

Mork, first I think you meant “West US” not “East US”, unless you have Teleport as a Nat’l Advantage. :-D  But let’s say you take Hawaii J1, doesn’t the US player place ground units in West US?  Your opponent would have to be pretty lame, but I guess we covered that…

Serious question though, if you have devoted enough units to attacking US mainland, where did the IPCs come from to “continue expansion” in Asia?  Presumably your transports moved east toward US, so you would have had to buy either (a) IC, or (b) more transports, but then you have little left for ground units.  I don’t think Japan has enough resources to conquer US and blitz Russia simultaneously.

I agree if you did go after US, that would suck resources away from attacks on Germany.  I just think if pressed, the US has a big enough economy to defend its mainland yet still provide some support against Germany.

[newpaintbrush]

@newpaintbrush:

@ncscswitch:

@newpaintbrush:

Why shouldn’t Germany be able to do a G4-G5 TRN purchase?

Why will the Med be a dead zone to Germany?

Why hsould any built TRNs immediately be sunk?

Why should Africa be lost early?

What are the Allied moves that result in those results?

If you don;t know, I’ll show you in a game sometime…   :evil:

HINT:  USA and UK to Algeria on Turn 2…

Even if the Germans do NOT move the Med fleet west, I find it very difficult for the Allies to crack the Med, because of the heavy presence of German air.

Please elaborate.  What are you doing, building 5 x sub with the US, and carrier for UK?

Where aaaarrree you ncsswitch?

I want to know how you crack the Med.

[Jennifer]

goldenbearflyer:

I wouldn’t assume it’s a safe assumption.  I’ve seen seasoned veterans forget that Germany can hit England and protect it too lightly.  I’ve seen rookies you expect to make that mistake not make it.

Anyway, any good German player is going to stage her fighters and fleet in a way she can invade England on G1, just in case.

[goldenbearflyer]

Anyway, any good German player is going to stage her fighters and fleet in a way she can invade England on G1, just in case.

On G1?  Or do you mean G2?  You could only bring 2 ground units on G1…

[Nix]

you possition the Figs at the end (non-combat phase) of G1 in western mainly.

[goldenbearflyer]

you position the Figs at the end (non-combat phase) of G1 in western mainly.

Oh, I see, she meant G1 non-combat phase stage forces threatening invasion G2 or thereafter.  I misinterpreted her meaning…  Right, in my current game I have 3-4 ftr in W.Eur, but unfortunately I played G1 buy 1AC 12inf.  If I had bought 2trn instead, then I would have created the threat.  Forgive me, I’m still getting used to A&A Revised; I’m not used to having significant German naval units to work with in SZ5!  So many possibilities…

[Jennifer]

2 Inf, 6 Fig, 1 Bomb is all you need sometimes. (Assuming you don’t lose a fig to Russian aggression.)

However, you can also invade Gibraltar and put your Trn/BB there giving you 4 ground units, 6 or 7 air units and a battleship for the invasion.

[goldenbearflyer]

2 Inf, 6 Fig, 1 Bomb is all you need sometimes. (Assuming you don’t lose a fig to Russian aggression.)

So you DID mean G1 I guess. :|  Don’t know the “consensus” on R1 moves, but sub to SZ6 makes G1 SeaLion slightly more risky.  Seems like many folks advocate sub to SZ2 as protection for UK naval buildup.  Like you said in another post, without knowing results of R1 it is difficult to project.  I just think with only 2inf a G1 invasion seems too risky.

btw, not sure it’s legal to bring Balkans ftr into G1 SeaLion.