Sea Lion is a very good Strategy for Germany if done Correct

[AlphaAeffchen]

Hi,

i play A&A over 10 years. The Global 40 second Edition is the best game of the series! I and my group (we are three people play mainly this game). We play the standard version without bids, but with low luck rules (its better for every A&A game because there is luck in every game but not too much). In the last 5 games i played the allies alone (which is good because the have to work perfectly together to defeat the imbalance).

Now on Topic: If Germany does a Sea Lion and captures London the allies have a big problem. Russia will never ever get Germany defeated alone! Germany has enough money to buy enough troops for defense. They also can defend London against the USA because they can block them with ships and produce ground units in London. It costs the USA too much resources to free the UK in the west!

The Problem is in my games Japan attacks the USA on turn 1 in hawai and the Phillipines! The USA has to react to this, they cant ignore it or Japan will have around 70 ipc after round 4 or 5 and conquer evereything and gets unstoppable.

An another Problem is that there is Italy which gets pretty annoying. A good player gets Italy always around to 15 or 20 IPC (and it doesnt matter if they loose ships in the med or not).

The only way to play the uk right is to not loose the UK or to make it really costly to Germany (and by the way if you play save the west UK wastes money for inf……)! You have to buy 6 inf and 1 fighter round one with the UK or Germany can do a Sealion and your dead!

Sea Lion is a very viable strategy if done correctly. If you loose the UK to Germany the game is nearly over! There is no way for a comeback because if you have a good japan Player who knows what to do  the USA wont have resources to rescue the UK (also it is to costly for them to do it). Germany can hold the UK for 2 or three rounds after they captured it and get enough troops for defense against the other allies.

Sealion done correct is a very viable strategy if done correctly!

Pls tell me what to do if Germany does a Sealion (i mean they plan to do it on turn 2 or 3) and Japan attacks the USA on turn 1)?

Believe me Russia is not the soulution they cant attack Germany so easy. Also dont tell me Kill Japan first. You know that the UK in the west is dead and that italy is around 30 IPC if you try to kill Japan First. Germany has around 70 IPC. Also a good Japan Player will make it really hard to get conquered…

Can anyone of the more expierenced players help me with this Problem?

[taamvan]

If you want a game without luck, I suggest chess.  Low luck sounds like watching paint dry.

If the UK builds a combination of fighters and infantry for 3 turns, Sea Lion will cost Germany almost all of its planes and men.  Without any more built up on the eastern front, it is fairly easy for Russia to try and take Romania and Finland.  In a no bid game, Germany can usually use the money won from UK to hold Russia back at the critical time, or vice versa and use the money won from taking Russia to turtle against the Western Allies.  Developing the invasion against Germany takes way too long (US 6) but that’s G40.

Like most people are saying;  the US is usually positioned to take the UK right back.  If they aren’t, you’ve shut off their buys and income for two turns and that’s usually a game winner.

So, if J1 DOW, this is pretty favorable for the Axis because America has to build from scratch.  The US cant send much over to the UK without an aircraft carrier, so that’s a suggestion.

The main part here is effective turtling.  Fighters can be bought to make SB ing London more dangerous.  With 4 fighters, they risk losing bombers.  With 20 men, they are going to have to marshall everything in West Germany for a few turns, this is how you know the attack is coming.  When they really do the attack, they may win with luck (making the low luck thing abs. perplexing and uninteresting) but they only win 8 IpCs and Russia can win as much IPC back by taking finland and Iraq.

Without the bid, the axis especially Germany has a pretty strong advantage in combination with the others so that is why they seem to be able to do it all (that and low luck amplifies their initial advantage)

[Tirano]

I agree very much with taaam and shadow. Sea Lion is my FAVORITE thing to see as an allied player, by far.  Russia is simply unconquerable if Germany spends all its money on UK, as well as existing pieces. America simply has to spend a full round of purchases to liberate UK, then Russia will stand and America can continue with its KJF.  The only players who do not like Sea Lion are the Axis (UK if selfish).

[taamvan]

true true tirano, but the forces must exist off the east coast of the US, then move to gib, then move to London–so you have to be ready to liberate 3 turns ahead of needing to.    Some players built only against Japan during a J1 and now you don’t have a single transport to work with in the east.

[Arthur Bomber Harris]

I personally find Sea Lion to be sub-optimal unless the UK largely ignores fortifying the capitol on the first round.  J1 + Sea Lion is usually a bad combination because it frees up the United States to fight back against Germany a couple rounds earlier than a standard J3.  UK will make the attack painful by building a few infantry + 1 fighter in London on UK1, followed by as many infantry as possible on UK2.  Germany still can defeat that force, but hopefully will lose some planes in the process.

With Japan going heavily against Hawaii on J1, that should free up ANZAC and India to counteract.  With support from China and a critical couple units from Russia, Japan should be struggling to make much progress.  The US doesn’t need to recapture London, they just need to force Germany to spend heavily to defend it.  That gives Russia enough income to be a major pain for the Axis.

You are playing with a bid, right?  If not then the Axis have many options that all result in a high probability of victory.

[simon33]

@ShadowHAwk:

Lets not get into the Low luck, dice holy war over here. Holy wars are for the middle east they are much better at it.

Well put.

I personally think you’re asking the wrong question. The better question is how to stop a J1 attack. If you want to know what is better to oppose Sea Lion than a UK1 buy of 6inf 1ftr, that is a 9inf buy - and bring across troops from Canada if you can. Even against a G3 Sea Lion this is possible.

If they are going J1 and hitting Hawaii, are they landing on it and virtually ignoring DEI? Presumably they have enough to stop a US1 counter attack, which is not easy to stop. US can pull all its fighters in unless their landing succeeds and its SZ10 force is not exactly weak.

[Tirano]

@taamvan:

true true tirano, but the forces must exist off the east coast of the US, then move to gib, then move to London–so you have to be ready to liberate 3 turns ahead of needing to.    Some players built only against Japan during a J1 and now you don’t have a single transport to work with in the east.

Good points Jon, all very dependent on when/if Japan has done a DOW, might be inconsequential as America has its hands tied in the Atlantic anyway.

[WILD BILL]

AlphaAeffchen, interesting strat combining a J1 with Sea Lion.

We have also been seeing J1 attacks that include hitting the US hard. They typically loose the Phil (mini fleet and island), plus sink the Hawaiian fleet. When Japan attacks J1 a couple things happen. First you’re kind of pissed and would like to get back at the Japanese. Then you think well I’m free to move on the Euro side now so a DC build would be nice (plus the German build left Sea Lion on the table). Losing that rag tag Hawaiian fleet leaves you in a bit of a pickle. You can’t really afford to send the San Fran fleet over to Europe to add to that US1 round buy to get it all to Gibraltar on US2, because Japan could then take Hawaii and really expand everywhere w/o much resistance (like you said).

If US keeps most of the home fleet in the Pac to stabilize things, Sea Lion could happen and your not in position to retake London any time soon.

[AlphaAeffchen]

Wild Bill, thx for your answer. You see the Problem.

Japan conquers Hawai and the phillipines on turn 1. The USA cant attack the Japan Forces at hawai (i mean in the sea Zone and so on there are two carriers and so on). The Fleet is to strong. Its not possible for the USA to retake London. They have to fight the pacific war.

Germany and italy defend russia easy if sealion is done correctly. They have enough ipc. To defend both. I know that the united Kingdom can buy much inf and defend selion perhaps or make it very costly. Do you know what happens then? The UK is out of the game for at least 3-4 rounds because their purchase was inefficient and italy gets very strong. Also if the German player see`s that UK is well defended they switch their plan and go after russia.

An another Problem is that our German Player always builds an Airport in the normandy on turn 2. This means any ship that comes near the uk gets destroyed because Germany purchases some planes every round.

My question is do i have to respond to a j1 in turn 1 or can i build one full round in the atlantic to counter this?

[simon33]

Are you suggesting all 3 CVs attack SZ26 then, with 3DDs, BB and a Cruiser + sub IIRC. Perhaps IJN dents the BB and loses a sub.

Only one TT is within range and no supporting planes for the amphibious assault. If the USA doesn’t scramble how could they take down the land forces? Even if they do, it’s still under 50% to take the territory. There is no bombardment.

Am I missing something? I’m going to assume you didn’t mean an amphibious assault on Hawaii, otherwise it makes no sense.

Presumably the other cruiser is sunk attacking the BB in SZ37. BB, DD and Sub attack Philippines.

If they only have 2 CVs in SZ26, I think you should hit it. It’s a coin toss on paper but they have to keep their carriers undamaged to avoid splashing their planes. You can build some subs and/or planes US1 and place them in the east if you win, west if you lose. Actually, if they strip off the tacs for fighters it’s only 41% to you with the sub alive but I would still hit it. http://calc.axisandallies.org/?mustland=0&abortratio=0&saveunits=0&strafeunits=0&aInf=&aArt=&aArm=&aFig=5&aBom=&aTra=&aSub=&aDes=1&aCru=1&aCar=&aBat=3&adBat=&dInf=&dArt=&dArm=&dFig=3&dBom=&dTra=&dSub=1&dDes=5&dCru=1&dCar=&dBat=1&ddBat=1&ool_att=Bat-Inf-Art-AArt-Arm-Sub-SSub-Des-Fig-JFig-Cru-Bom-HBom-Car-dBat-Tra&ool_def=Bat-Inf-Art-AArt-Arm-Bom-HBom-Sub-SSub-Des-Car-Cru-Fig-JFig-dBat-Tra&battle=Run&rounds=&reps=10000&luck=pure&ruleset=AA1942&territory=&round=1&pbem=

If you don’t hit such a force then it can support an assault on Hawaii turn 2 and then you need to defend Queensland.

[AlphaAeffchen]

Simon33 sorry you are right they take hawai turn 2. There are two carriers fully loaded. A battleship. And more small ships. Its not possible for the USA to attack the Japan fleet at hawai on their turn 1 its suicide.

If Japan invests only in navy (and a few transports) the USA cant attack Japan alone ist not possible you need to much time if Japna attacks on round 1 because you cant counterattack (the USA lost too much). The USA hast to invest in the pacific and europe gets out of control because UK falls or is not able to do anything because they have to build inf against sealion.

How can the USA respond to this on turn 1?

[AlphaAeffchen]

Sorry i was wrong. There are not 2 carriers at hawai. There are three and a battleship and many small ships.

The other fleet wit one batlleship and cruiser and Transport take the Phillipines.

Sometimes they attack the english battleship only with bombers but not always.

My point is if Japan does a round 1 attack on the USA you cant counter it at your first round with the USA. You have to build troops and play defensive.

The Problem is if Germany plans a Sea Lion you have to help europe with the USA but you cant because of the round 1 attack from Japan!

Again my question is can the USA ignore the Japan atttack for one round?

[simon33]

Hmm, the UK BB in SZ37 can be hit with 1ftr, 1Cru and 2SBs. To just attack it with bombers is pretty dicey.

Thanks for clarifying.

You have to position so they can’t attack the fleet in SZ10. Otherwise, I think yes you can build mostly Atlantic turn one against this play. Depending on how many TTs are within range you can consider flying some more planes into Hawaii to defend it.

You’ve got to be thinking how you’re going to hit the SZ35 fleet with this sort of play. Max 4 ships just isn’t enough to fight and survive and you should be punishing this. If the UK BB is alive, you can gather a multinational fleet around Java, with planes for attack. If not, I guess it’s somewhat harder.

US1 I’d be inclined to move 1 ftr 1Cru 1TT 1inf 1art to Iceland/SZ123 and the bomber to London. Depends a lot on what fleet is around though. Watch out for subs which can hit that force and ignore fighters. This generally has to be reinforced by the UK so you have to decide if you can fly planes out of London UK1. Given they can return UK2 for a G3 Sea Lion, it should be OK. The problem is if there’s a sub living in SZ106. If there is, you need the UK DD to protect the TT, perhaps aided by the US Cruiser so you can’t do the Iceland gambit and then you also can’t fly US planes to London via Iceland - you have to go via Gibraltar or Morocco which are exposed to Italian amphibious assaults. SZ110 is a problem too if they control Normandy.

There’s a few other things to consider of course with the above - but you can work them out.

I’m curious about what would be so wrong about moving the UK CV from Egypt to India in this scenario? UK3 it can reach SZ36 IIRC.

[AlphaAeffchen]

Hi simon33,

thx for your reply. Why should i land fighters in hawai. If Japan crushes them anyway with coastel bombardment and so on in turn ? I mean yes the us has more money at the beginning but this would be a waste of resources… (Japan has enough planes).

Your other ideas are good.

UK in the West: I dont do the taranto raid with UK. I always put my ships to Gibraltar and i only destroy the destroyer and the Transport from italy so my fleet can move through. I have a problem to move the fighters out of UK in turn 2 because Germany can also do a Sealion on turn 2 (Germany purchases 2 Bombers and a submarine in  turn 1).

But i think its important that the USA has to place their first build in turn 1 complete in the Atlantic. Thx for the advise.

I have a little rule question which is not clearly descriped in the manual (as so often…):

Can you tell me if the USA gets the extra money when they are attacked imidiatley on turn 1 from Japan at the start of their us turn to buy extra Units or do you get it in your collect income Phase (i mean when you can buy units on turn 1 or do they get the extra Money in their income Phase on turn 1)?

[Kreuzfeld]

Dont know if anyone else has said this, but in a J1, there is no sealion.

I haven’t planned sealion in a long time, so correct me if i am wrong here.

There is never a sealion in G2, so, lets look at G3

Assume:
Germany has 1 TT
G1, build 3TT
G2 build 9 TT

This means that germany has 13 TT
in them, they put 13 inf, 6 tanks and 7 art
their maximum strngth is have 5 tacs, 5 ftrs and 1 bomber
lets say they lost 1 ftr and 1 tac
so they have 4 ftrs, 4 tacs and 2 bomber

I assume they send 1 sub to 106 and it wins, while the rest are used as casualties against the british atlantic  fleet. (which is viped out, all except the CR in 91)

UK sees the first turn TT buy and thinks…. SHAIT…

they have 2 inf, 1 mech, 4 aa, in london and 2 inf 1 ftr in scotland. the scot fighter scrambles . They drop taronto and buy 9 infs (and saves 1). Since they know it is a J1 game they send one ftr from gib  to london, they send the maltafighter to gib and (if they can) they transport inf + tank from ontario to uk.  If uk can,they also send their CR to ontario.

So
buy 9 inf
scotland -> London 2 inf
91 -> 106 CR
98-> gib 1 tac
malta -> gib 1 ftr

US looks at this, they think, how can i  Help?

US buy: all pacific, perhaps 2-4 bombers (if  Germany killed both UK TTs and/or lost 2 planes or less)

They move their 1 fighters and tac from 10 us and their TT and DD to join up with the british CR in SZ 10 to Ontario, they use their ftr in W US and their fighters  in E us , their DD and their bomber to kill the german sub in 106 and land them all in ontario.

After this their ontarioforce should be
3 ftr, 1 tac, 1 bomber, 1 inf, 1 tank, 1 dd and 1 TT.

France: Screen the uk fighter in gib
UK2
They have 1 IPC saved, 2 ipc from taking perisa in UK1 and 5 IPC for NO giving them a total of 36 IPC
buy 7 inf, one Airbase for Ontario
Move UK ftr from gib to UK

Now they have
4 ftrs
1 bomber
4 + 9 + 7 inf
1 mech
5 AA
and a 50% chance of having the 1 inf and 1 tank from ontario in uk (if 106 survived UK1)

US2
Buy: All pacific
Move all of 5 planes, 1 inf and 1 tank from ontario to London.

The forces will then be on G3
13 inf, 6 tanks and 7 art + 4 ftr, 4 tac and 2 bombers from Germany = total of 36 units.
vs
5 AA, 1 mech, 21 inf, 1 tank, 7 ftrs, 1 tac, 2 bombers = 38 units

this is a 96 % win for the defenders.
If germany used G2 to stratbomb UK with 2 bombers and 4 tacs, I can assume they lost 1 tac, and did 20 IPC in damage.

UK2 would then build 1 Airbase and 1 inf and 1 tank, fly the tac from Gib to UK, while US flies in the bombers from W US to UK.
This will give at least a 63 % chance for the defence.

I this scenario, I have been very helpfull to the germans, I assumed they only lost 1 plane in G1, that nothing went to help protect the italian fleet in taronto, that they dont need any planed in the channel to prevent a scramble  (which would destory their invasion), that they didn’t need to protect their fleet and that they viped out everything in the atlantic in G1. And still, they have trouble winning. Because the US can get landtroops and FTRs to UK in A J1, there is no Sealion. In a J2, the US can still get 4 bombers to UK when they fear a sealion.

[WILD BILL]

That’s a little different attack then I have seen against the US. Generally the 3rd Japanese carrier is used to get planes into the Phil ground battle to insure a win there. You don’t get to use bombardment because of the sea battle, and just 2 loaded transports could fail to take out the 2 US inf and ftr on the Phil.

By using the 3rd carrier at Phil we generally take out the Hawaiian fleet with a sub 2dd and 4 planes, then NCM the 2 carriers, cruiser and BB to Wake (which is also taken) to pick up the planes leaving a dd alive in sz26 to block out the US home fleet from being used in a counter attack (so there is no counter attack).

I can see that 3 loaded carriers, BB cruiser and a couple dd sitting in sz26 off Hawaii as very intimidating. The US could hit you though, and have the Anz try to finish you off. US has 1dd, 1 cruiser, 1 bb, 1 carrier, 4 ftrs, 1 tac, 1 bmr all in range. Yea it is a suicide mission, but they could roll for 2 rounds to a point that if you take hits on your carriers they retreat and you lose planes. Then the Anz takes a run at you with cruiser and 3 ftrs to knock out your capital ships.

I realize this does nothing to help the English, but Japan would be neutered if things went well. Your US1 purchase could be ships for the East coast to get things going over there.

An after though is that UK does a def buy UK1 (6 inf and 1 ftr). Instead of starting a liberation fleet on the East coast you buy 4 bmrs US1 and place them on the East US. If the Germans build a bunch of transports then fly those 4 bmrs to London. I think it would tip the scales to a UK win, but not sure about in a low luck game?

BTW, no you don’t get the US NO bonus to spend on the first turn if Japan attacks J1. NO’s are paid out in the collect income phase that is at the end of your turn. Your starting income remains at 52 IPCs to spend US1.

[AlphaAeffchen]

@ Kreuzfeld. You are totally right but the problem is if i do this buys for UK they can do nothing for many rounds in Europe. Italy gets very strong in the med. The USA have to fight Japan. The allies in Europe  are getting a problem because UK is isolatet because of only inf buy and USA has to Focus on Japan (but you are right i have to do this buy for UK).

@ Wild Bill

Wel in the last game they didnt atack the battleship from UK (i know this is worth 20 IPC but thats another question for the later turns). They used the japanese bombers to help at the phillipines.

Japans only strategy is to get the USA in a full pacific war.

Meanwhile in Europe: The UK is conqured (if they dont buy defensive) or issolatet because of two turn inf buys. Nearly no us troops to help in Europe (because of heavy J1 attack from Japan)! Italy is getting very strong in the med because UK cant support the med (again inf buys)!

Ahh and buy the way if Germany sees that the UK buys only inf on turn 1. Germany will Focus on other things but they buy ships and more aircraft to isolate UK from Europe (remember in turn 2 they build an airport in the normandy…). Also they sink the ships at Gibraltar with their fleeet…

My question is can i focus in turn 1 only on the atlantic with the USA and what should i purchase and does the USA get the extra income to spend on turn 1 in the unit purchase phase or at the end in their income phase if they are attacked in turn 1?

[AlphaAeffchen]

Sorry i did a mistake.

They dont use the bombers for the phillipines. I will look at the full board what their turn was. But there are 3 carriers definetly at hawai.

[AlphaAeffchen]

Ok i looked at the board.

• Japan has three 3 transports at the beginning right?

• So they can take phillipines easy without any air Support. They buy 1or 2 transports in turn 1 so they can invade hawai on turn 2.

• ahh yes and the Bombers and one small battleship attack the UK battleship……

[Arthur Bomber Harris]

Japan has 3 transports to start with, but usually you want to take out Borneo with a J1 attack.  Otherwise UK gets too much money.  Even with two transports, it is a risky battle to go after the Philippines without a carrier to lend air support.  Hence you have at most two carriers and one transport for the raids towards Hawaii.  I think that standard J1 + Pearl Harbor plan calls for capturing Wake Island plus sub/2DD/4 plane raid against the US Pacific fleet.  Unless dice are ridiculous, the Japanese have no chance of capturing Hawaii on turn 2.

You end up trading a sub + 2DD for a US sub+DD+Cruiser+transport.  That isn’t too bad of an exchange but you are out of position, allowing the ANZAC/UK Pacific to gain extra income for the first few rounds.  Also you seriously risk allowing the UK/China/Russia to fortify Yunnan.  Once they are dug in there for a few rounds, there is no way of getting them out.  You can’t be trading Japanese infantry for Chinese infantry.  Attrition is not a game you can play as the Axis.  Hence I tend not to bother with J1 + Pearl Harbor.  Instead I prefer to gamble with a Japanese DD going to SZ 62.  If you win you mess up ANZAC for the first few rounds.

Play more TripleA games and you will rapidly see the weaknesses of that J1/Sea Lion plan.  People here have played 100+ G40 games and, with the aid of the Battle Calculator, can easily spot the flaws of many opening strategies.  Make one mistake and the game could be over.  Spotting minor mistakes is harder to do in a live board game.