National Advantages

[Wazzup]

If someone wants to make a bid for Axis, I’ll play with all NAs.  LHTR style though.  No lightening strike.

[newpaintbrush]

Actually, that avatar is of an old video game character.

It was the hero of “Karateka”, a Broderbund game.

That game was pretty funny.  You fight your way across a lot of levels, and at the end, if you walk towards the princess, she kicks you in the nuts and kills you.  (If you walk towards her, you’re in a fighting stance.  You have to run).

The character doesn’t bust a move though.  I bet someone decided to have fun with the character.

[rjclayton]

I thought djensen didn’t want animated avatars on here for some reason?

[Guest]

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[Jennifer]

Straw:

That might be accurate for out of the box rules. But I disagree that Joint Strike is a game breaker.

Odds are you are using Joint Strike to kill a massive German fleet in SZ 5 so you stop getting crippled by UBoats.  Yes, those things are VERY annoying!  Get 10 of them and you’re doing -10 to England, -10 to America and you’ve probably taken all of Africa and Japan has Australia, New Zealand, Madagascar, India, Persia and T-J.  That means England’s earning about, uhm, 1 IPC?  America’s earning about 28 IPC?

After Joint Strike, England’s at 11 IPC and America’s back to 38 IPC.  (Since odds are you can’t land troops AND sink the German fleet.)

Dug-in Defenders are stupid.  Though, they are useful in preventing an allied invasion of Japan itself.

Banzai has been pretty effective for me.

Dive-Bombers are just friggin awesome!  Attack at 5 or less?  Same with Super Battleships, means you almost always score a hit with your bombardments!

Then you add in Inf and Art defending at 3 or less for Germany and amphibious assaults become almost impossible.

In return most of England’s NA’s are worthless and ALL of Russia’s NAs are worthless in a traditional game.

[Wazzup]

yes, I agree somewhat.

I can play a pretty killer setup with Allied if you want to play I’ll show you :)

[General_D.Fox]

I agree with you there Jen about England’s and Russia’s.  I got the “Non-Aggression Pact” b/w Russia and Japan.  All I have to say to that one is, friggin’ bah humbug!  :x  My friend wasn’t even too worried about me sticking 4 extra guys in Novo.  He just brought along almost his entire airforce to eliminate what I had.  And England’s advanced radar?  Come on, it’s only good for ONE point in the game, and that’s it.  And honestly, who even knows when the best time to use it is anyway?  You could end up playing a 20 round game and never be sure, ‘oh, is this the time I use it, or is THIS the time I use it!!!’ Â

[newpaintbrush]

@Jennifer:

Straw:

That might be accurate for out of the box rules. But I disagree that Joint Strike is a game breaker.

Odds are you are using Joint Strike to kill a massive German fleet in SZ 5 so you stop getting crippled by UBoats.  Yes, those things are VERY annoying!  Get 10 of them and you’re doing -10 to England, -10 to America and you’ve probably taken all of Africa and Japan has Australia, New Zealand, Madagascar, India, Persia and T-J.  That means England’s earning about, uhm, 1 IPC?  America’s earning about 28 IPC?

After Joint Strike, England’s at 11 IPC and America’s back to 38 IPC.  (Since odds are you can’t land troops AND sink the German fleet.)

Dug-in Defenders are stupid.  Though, they are useful in preventing an allied invasion of Japan itself.

Banzai has been pretty effective for me.Â

Dive-Bombers are just friggin awesome!  Attack at 5 or less?  Same with Super Battleships, means you almost always score a hit with your bombardments!

Then you add in Inf and Art defending at 3 or less for Germany and amphibious assaults become almost impossible.

In return most of England’s NA’s are worthless and ALL of Russia’s NAs are worthless in a traditional game.Â

I think your estimates are optimistic on the side of the Axis.

If you have 10 U-boats, that’s 80 IPC.  Russia should be kicking a whole lot of ass.

[Guest]

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[Wazzup]

@General_D.Fox:

I agree with you there Jen about England’s and Russia’s.  I got the “Non-Aggression Pact” b/w Russia and Japan.  All I have to say to that one is, friggin’ bah humbug!  :x  My friend wasn’t even too worried about me sticking 4 extra guys in Novo.  He just brought along almost his entire airforce to eliminate what I had.  And England’s advanced radar?  Come on, it’s only good for ONE point in the game, and that’s it.  And honestly, who even knows when the best time to use it is anyway?  You could end up playing a 20 round game and never be sure, ‘oh, is this the time I use it, or is THIS the time I use it!!!’ Â

Well, I will say that if you are saving that Enigma, you’ve lost your advantage.  Non-Agression Pact is not about stopping Japan, it’s about delaying them.

[Weekend Gamer]

Jen, I wouldn’t exactly call Britain’s NAs useless, especially if you combine Enigma with the Colonial Garrison in India the way you did in our game.  England having an extra round of builds in India AND the Egypt fighter AND the Egypt armor in freaking India was a HUGE pain up my a** as Japan.  Again, not exactly useless.

[OutsideLime]

Britain’s NAs aren’t useless, but 3 of the 6 are one-time-use.  Once you trigger 'em, they’re gone.  That puts a little tension on the UK player to make the correct choice about when to use them, and also means that have relatively fewer advantages once they do.  In general, Britain’s NAs are meh.

Mideast Oil - I like this one, because it allows surprise defensive appearances by Fighters halfway across the world.  Bombers get unbelievable reach.  You can take off from London, bomb Moscow, refuel in Persia, and land in Australia all in one turn.

Colonial Garrison.  A double-edged sword.  You can put down a complex, but it could get gobbled up and used against you if you don’t devote a lot of resources to protect it.  I would prefer this NA if it were a free Complex one time during the game, not necessarily at game start.

Radar.  Useful, if there were any British territories with an AA that regularly got attacked by Axis air.

French Resistance.  Three lousy infantry.  Egh.  That should slightly slow down the German retake.

Joint Strike.  I have yet to plan and execute a proper D-day using this.  I’m sure it will be a fantastic moment when I do.

Enigma Decoded.  My favourite of UK’s NAs.  I love setting traps for poor sucker Germany.  Once you’ve used it to devastating effect, it takes on a good psychological value in future games, too.  A flotilla of undefended transports won’t get attacked by German air, because I have a few combat-ships next door and Enigma Decoded in my pocket.

Germany, on the other hand, is all action all the time, and becomes a combat beast when all 6 are turned on.  Fortress Europe and Atlantic Wall together mean that _every single German unit defending against amphibious assaults in grey territories defends at 3 or better._  Not too shabby.  Luftwaffe Divebombers and Panzerblitz together means that first-cycle massacres are the norm, and that expensive German equipment doesn’t remain in range of a counterattack.  U-Boat Interdiction and Wolfpacks are not ideal, since subs are not such a mainstream purchase for Germany, but when they’re active, you’ll find the Allied player quite concerned with their effects.

[Jennifer]

@Gamer:

Jen, I wouldn’t exactly call Britain’s NAs useless, especially if you combine Enigma with the Colonial Garrison in India the way you did in our game.  England having an extra round of builds in India AND the Egypt fighter AND the Egypt armor in freaking India was a HUGE pain up my a** as Japan.  Again, not exactly useless.

Yes, those two work well together.

French Resistance seems to be a good way of stacking W. Europe for a round without risking any real assets and still forcing Germany to commit at least 10 IPC to retaking it. (2 inf, art with fgt support)

Radar is all but pointless, except in games where your opponent is a fan of SBRs.  Maybe against the OOB dive bombers where you just have fighters that do IPC dmg to ICs, but even then, pretty limited.

Mid-East Oil I have yet to find a use for.  I guess in conjunction with Colonial Garrison and/or Enigma Decoded you could use it to bolster India with English Fighters and bombers, but what about afterwards?

As for Enigma Decoded, I love to use it to save the British Fighter and Tank in Egypt.  You can then use them against Egypt in a counter attack or move them against Japan.

For Russia, my biggest beef is the Russo-Japanese Non-Aggression Pact.  This is more of a NA for both Japan and Russia.  Better would be Russian conscripts where Russia gets 1 free infantry in any Red Territory of the Russian’s choice until that territory is captured. (Does not come back after liberation.)  Just to signify the massive russian army if nothing else.

I always wanted to use the Russian tank stealing NA.  But the odds of Germany risking a tank to a Russian offensive is pretty slim, so that’s almost not worth getting.

Lend-Lease, even nerfed, seems to be pretty good.  +2 Infantry a round doesn’t sound like much, until round 10 when you realize the Russians have gotten 20 free infantry this game. =)

Mobile Industry has been pretty effective for me in the past as well.  Especially when in KJF cause you can move it to Novo and pull out of Kaz without seriously compromising your output.  Good way to keep Germany from taking it so America and England can focus on Japan.

[Wazzup]

French Resistance is not just on UKs turn, it could be USA capturing West Europe and the UK still get inf there on USAs turn.  LHTR state that allied just needs to take it.
Radar could be used in India too, to make the Zeros think a bit more before flying into/over India.
Mideast oil offers flexibility in Uk early on.  It allows for your RAF to get in better position for those early rounds.
Russian Winter can make the Germans stop in their tracks.

Nonagression/Russian Winter combined with Enigma/Colonial Garrison with Chinese Divisions and Mechanized Inf can make a big headache for Japan.

[Jennifer]

Actually, British AA Guns only get the bonus from Radar on territories that start brown.  So if you capture W. Europe and put a British AA Gun there, you don’t get the bonus.  That’s why I discount the tech.

If I could use any British AA gun anywhere and get the bonus, it would be rather nice.  Then again, Moscow would have a British AA Gun on it!

[newpaintbrush]

@OutsideLime:

Britain’s NAs aren’t useless, but 3 of the 6 are one-time-use.  Once you trigger 'em, they’re gone.  That puts a little tension on the UK player to make the correct choice about when to use them, and also means that have relatively fewer advantages once they do.  In general, Britain’s NAs are meh.

WAT?

Mideast Oil - I like this one, because it allows surprise defensive appearances by Fighters halfway across the world.  Bombers get unbelievable reach.  You can take off from London, bomb Moscow, refuel in Persia, and land in Australia all in one turn.

You’re going to use UK bombers to bomb Moscow?  HERETIC!

Colonial Garrison.  A double-edged sword.  You can put down a complex, but it could get gobbled up and used against you if you don’t devote a lot of resources to protect it.  I would prefer this NA if it were a free Complex one time during the game, not necessarily at game start.

If you start popping stuff out in India on UK1, it is FAR more difficult for Japan to take.  Three more infantry makes a big big difference.

Radar.  Useful, if there were any British territories with an AA that regularly got attacked by Axis air.

What, like London and Calcutta?  German fighters provide the big added kick against London, Japanese fighters provide the big added kick against Calcutta.  Radar is actually a g****** pain in the a** for the Axis.

French Resistance.  Three lousy infantry.  Egh.  That should slightly slow down the German retake.

True, it’s not a BIG difference.  But if it can make a VITAL difference.  Capture, add in infantry fodder, add in US fighters.

Joint Strike.  I have yet to plan and execute a proper D-day using this.  I’m sure it will be a fantastic moment when I do.

Joint Strike is pretty broken.  It’s like Voltron. (edit) “broken” - that is, game breakingly good.  Like, um, Voltron! (/edit)

Enigma Decoded.  My favourite of UK’s NAs.  I love setting traps for poor sucker Germany.  Once you’ve used it to devastating effect, it takes on a good psychological value in future games, too.  A flotilla of undefended transports won’t get attacked by German air, because I have a few combat-ships next door and Enigma Decoded in my pocket.

Germany, on the other hand, is all action all the time, and becomes a combat beast when all 6 are turned on.  Fortress Europe and Atlantic Wall together mean that _every single German unit defending against amphibious assaults in grey territories defends at 3 or better._  Not too shabby.  Luftwaffe Divebombers and Panzerblitz together means that first-cycle massacres are the norm, and that expensive German equipment doesn’t remain in range of a counterattack.  U-Boat Interdiction and Wolfpacks are not ideal, since subs are not such a mainstream purchase for Germany, but when they’re active, you’ll find the Allied player quite concerned with their effects.

If I have a LOT of stuff defending in grey territories, that just makes it so I lose slower.  Same thing for building mass subs; you can slow down the Allied Atlantic fleet, but then Russia presses very hard.  Panzerblitz frees up your fighters, so it’s pretty sweet.

Generally, the Allied NAs help the Allies to ATTACK, or are significantly powerful on defense.  That is, Allied NAs help the Allies WIN.  Generally, the Axis NAs just make it so it takes longer for the Allies to kill them.  That is, Axis NAs do NOT help the Axis win; they just make it take longer for the Axis to LOSE.  IMHO of course.

[Jennifer]

I disagree on a few points.

Joint Strike is awesome!  What other NA allows you to hit the Axis across the globe simultaniously chosing the weaker of the two powers to take the brunt of the impact resulting in massively inflating one power?  You have to set it up right though.  Set up at least 2 major engagements, and I like 3 minor engagements as well, but the more the merrier!

Also, UBoat INterdiction has multiple facets to it.  1)  Submarines are an offensive threat against the Allies.  2)  Submarines make good fodder to sink Allied ships when coupled with aircraft.  3)  They EACH take $1 from both USA and UK each round until sunk.  3)  $40 IPC income - $16 IPC for subs = $24 IPC that’s teh same as Russia’s income.  You already start iwth a bigger army and airforce, so you really only need to replace infantry losses for a couple of rounds.  After 2 rounds you’ll have 6-7 submarines (depending on the status of Submarine SZ 8.)  That’s 12-14 IPC a round the allies lose.  Or roughly, the equivalent of losing Africa (which they should not have at this point either.)  What is that, like 27 IPC give or take that England is down?  Out of 30?  Do you seriously consider them a threat at this point?

[newpaintbrush]

@Jennifer:

I disagree on a few points.

Joint Strike is awesome!  What other NA allows you to hit the Axis across the globe simultaniously chosing the weaker of the two powers to take the brunt of the impact resulting in massively inflating one power?  You have to set it up right though.  Set up at least 2 major engagements, and I like 3 minor engagements as well, but the more the merrier!

Also, UBoat INterdiction has multiple facets to it.  1)  Submarines are an offensive threat against the Allies.  2)  Submarines make good fodder to sink Allied ships when coupled with aircraft.  3)  They EACH take $1 from both USA and UK each round until sunk.  3)  $40 IPC income - $16 IPC for subs = $24 IPC that’s teh same as Russia’s income.  You already start iwth a bigger army and airforce, so you really only need to replace infantry losses for a couple of rounds.  After 2 rounds you’ll have 6-7 submarines (depending on the status of Submarine SZ 8.)  That’s 12-14 IPC a round the allies lose.  Or roughly, the equivalent of losing Africa (which they should not have at this point either.)  What is that, like 27 IPC give or take that England is down?  Out of 30?  Do you seriously consider them a threat at this point?

1.  By “broken”, I didn’t mean “broke down”, but like “game breakingly good”.

2.  Subs do not invade territories.  The Allies can fly around and blow up subs.  So basically, the subs cruise around getting blown up.  If you mass subs at Baltic, the destroyer/transport does not protect against heavy air.  If you mass subs at Mediterranean, the battleship/transport is not optimal against heavy air.  If you just move the subs around, the Allies have many places to land fighters, from where they can attack the subs.  Either way, you have to spend more IPCs on a carrier, or you have to unite the fleets.

3.  Out of the box NAs have the Allies lose 1 IPC per sub.

[Wazzup]

don’t forget if there is that Joint Strike, UB inderdiction gets creamated.

[Jennifer]

Ok, misunderstood ya then.  Thought you were saying Joint Strike sucked.  It has very useful applications, as Wazzup says, it works splendidly against Uboat interdiction.

And the submarines in SZ 5 are safe from allied aircraft.  You want to suicide a fighter for a submarine?  Okay, so not only do I get my 2 IPC out of the allies in the loss of the fighter, but the allies also have to live without a fighter or spend 10 more IPC to get another one.  No skin off my nose. :)

But if you worry about it, why not build your submarines in SZ 14?  Now you have a Battleship, Transport to protect them.  Or, if you MUST, get a carrier in Round 1, then 2 submarines in round 2 and 1 in round 3, 1 in round 4?