Best way to sneak up on UK

[Squash]

I don’t think any build up in the Mediteranean is a good idea, while yes, you can theoretically strike any target, you’ll be putting your ships directly in the path of the US fleet, and that’s a quick way to lose a fleet. 90% of the time the US fleet goes for the Med, so I’d consider staging out of the Baltic fleet instead. With your already established subs and destroyer, you can just build a carrier or two and land fighters on it/them for a great defense, and the fighters can be used for your attack. Then in the next turn, build a ton of transports, it’ll be too late for a UK counter attack, odds are everything but US planes will be out of range, and the UK will only have one shot of outproducing your ground forces, and if you devote all of your airforce, I doubt he can hold on.

[frimmel]

@newpaintbrush:

My advice is to buy your opponent free drinks.  Get 'em good and drunk.  Actually, that is generally sound advice for dealing with people.

“The trouble with the world is everyone is a few drinks behind.”-Bogart in Sabrina I think.

Never tried Sea Lion myself but salting away some IPCs here and there for a sudden big 'ol navy purchase doesn’t sound like a bad idea.

[Jennifer]

I wouldn’t say more then like 5 a round though. (5 rounds = 3 transports +1)

[jsp4563]

Trying to take UK before Russia falls will cost you the game.  Germany can’t spend all that money on transports without allowing Russia to become a threat, and the US/UK will see the German naval build up and easily counter it.

[Cobert]

But it doesnt HAVE to go to the UK, we all said that you could rob IPCs from numerous other territories.

[newpaintbrush]

@Cobert:

But it doesnt HAVE to go to the UK, we all said that you could rob IPCs from numerous other territories.

Like where?

What territories are going to justify a weak early start against Russia and the need to keep sinking IPCs into a German navy?

And I never said you could rob IPCs from numerous other territories, or that Sea Lion in the scenario you describe is a good idea.  I believe my exact words were:

F**K sea lion

I also described Sea Lion in that scenario as reckless.

If you MUST do Sea Lion (because let’s face it, bold and reckless moves are what impresses the ladies

If you’re going to say things like “we all said that you could rob IPCs from numerous other territories.” indicating that you are trying to take a REASONED approach to Sea Lion, I must dispute that.  Sea Lion is some wild and reckless stuff.  It is not something that you do because your command staff agrees with you.  It is what you do when your six-year old kid wanders into your war room, and rewrites all your battle plans.  (Assume the six-year-old in question has just had a lot of sugared cereal and is watching athletic shoe commercials and Hollywood movies).

Now, if someone wants to make the point that often in war, the reckless and daring succeed, I will not debate that; the pre-emptive strike is often a good move.  But Sea Lion is REALLY audacious stuff.

[Cobert]

Im not doubting its reckless, I was just trying to figure out a way to make the least reckless possible.  In the game I tried in in that mightve been an allied win, the mediterranean distraction helped Japan get to Moscow. Still, it seems very situational, not something you try every game.  I needed something new to change the bland ‘try for africa / attack russia’ approach.

[frimmel]

Well you can always try an experimental strat as long as you are aware that it is experimental. Playing games is supposed to be fun, it is of course more fun to win but sometimes playing just to play is fun too.

[newpaintbrush]

@Cobert:

Im not doubting its reckless, I was just trying to figure out a way to make the least reckless possible.  In the game I tried in in that mightve been an allied win, the mediterranean distraction helped Japan get to Moscow. Still, it seems very situational, not something you try every game.  I needed something new to change the bland ‘try for africa / attack russia’ approach.

The viability of different lines of play depend on what ruleset you play.

Since I play OOB/FAQ, I sometimes run

1)  Rockets

2. Long Range Aircraft Sea Lion variation

I usaully try to take Russia and Africa anyways with those lines of play, but those lines of play really mess with the game.

If you join the Caspian Sub Yahoo group, you can read the paper on building 2-3 Baltic transports on G1.  I use that as 3), sometimes.

Join Caspian Sub.  It’s a good gig.

[Cobert]

Ehh, we dont play with Tech rolls, those are out.

I get that its just for fun, but I was wondering If I could make it an effective strategy.

[newpaintbrush]

@Cobert:

Ehh, we dont play with Tech rolls, those are out.

I get that its just for fun, but I was wondering If I could make it an effective strategy.

Next time, post the constraints that you are operating under.

I don’t like to waste time.

–

Trying to take London without tech is not an effective strategy unless you have a transport bid in the Baltic, or unless your opponent does not respond properly to your G1 move.  There are lines of play that use Baltic transports to maintain a threat on London while accomplishing other objectives, but those are not strictly Sea Lion plays.

[Guest]

Hey Cobert.

Couple thoughts for you:

1. The sneaky way to hit London is the Land Bridge.  It’s part of what newpaintbrush mentioned on the Caspian Sub website.  Here’s the quick version of the move:

R1: Buy 2tra in the Baltic (3tra depending on some factors).  This is stronger than it looks - it shouldn’t be attacked.  Also invade Gibraltar.  Now you are set for a united fleet in S07 on R2.
R2: If the UK goes KJF or otherwise leaves itself exposed, now buy 5tra.  That gives you a minimum of 8tra and a max of 10tra.

It’s a great sucker punch.

If the cirucmstances are wrong for buying the 5tra on R2, you still have a great suicide fleet.

That’s the short version.  The long version is in the Baltic papers on Caspian Sub.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Caspian_Sub/

One more thought: I have seen MANY games where folks were fighting over India and WEU/UK were relatively empty (KJF).  In a lot of those instances, the Germans could have dropped 5tra in the Baltic and overwhelmed London immediately.  It’s a sucker punch people just don’t look for much.

Peace

[jsp4563]

I don’t think any decent allied player would allow germany to unite their fleet in sz7.  It’s easy to spot, and easily countered.

[Cobert]

@newpaintbrush:

Next time, post the constraints that you are operating under.

I don’t like to waste time.

–

Trying to take London without tech is not an effective strategy unless you have a transport bid in the Baltic, or unless your opponent does not respond properly to your G1 move.  There are lines of play that use Baltic transports to maintain a threat on London while accomplishing other objectives, but those are not strictly Sea Lion plays.

Well sorry about that then.

Just got into caspian sub.

[newpaintbrush]

@jsp4563:

I don’t think any decent allied player would allow germany to unite their fleet in sz7.  It’s easy to spot, and easily countered.

OK, I build a German carrier and land one fighter and the bomber at Libya, one fighter at Germany to go on the Baltic carrier, and rest at W. Europe.  I sent the Med fleet west and united with the German sub from the Atlantic at Gibraltar, taking no casaulties (reasonably likely with fighters attacking as well).  Also, I have Anglo-Egypt because of a German opening bid.

Counter that easily.

[Guest]

@jsp4563:

I don’t think any decent allied player would allow germany to unite their fleet in sz7.  It’s easy to spot, and easily countered.

Show me how it’s done.  Start with the simple example I gave.  Germans build 3tra in the Baltic, send 1sub 1tra 1btl 2ftr to Gibraltar.  Germans land 4ftr in WEU, 1ftr 1bmr in LIB.

What is your easy counter to that move to prevent the fleets from uniting?

Thanks in advance.

[newpaintbrush]

Well sorry about that then.

it’s coo.  (abbrev. “cool”)

What is your easy counter to that move to prevent the fleets from uniting?

Me (points):  OMG, HEATHER LOCKLEAR!

(CrazyStraw spins around “where?!”)

(sudden crashing noise)

Me:  OOPS, my cat knocked over the board!  OH WELLZ, I guess your German fleets can’t unite, WHAT A SHAME

CrazyStraw:  You don’t have a cat.

–

The closest thing to an “easy” counter that I can think of is US and UK consolidate fleet off UK, and UK builds 3 fighters, followed by US flies its W US and Hawaii fighters to E. Canada and its fighter and bomber to London, while also moving its E. US forces of 2 inf 1 art 1 tank to London.

London has defender 1 AA gun 2 bomber 4 inf 2 art 3 tank 6 fighter.  The Russian sub that joined the UK battleship and transport on Russia 1 moves west of Algeria to block the German Mediterranean fleet on Russia2.  (The Caspian Sub paper does mention that if Russian fighters are in range of London, that possibly 3 transports should not be built.  So I assume that Russia has played a Russian-fighters-at-Caucasus variation.)

The Russian sub does NOT prevent German fleet unification.  What it does is 1) prevent the German Med transport from being used in a G2 attack on London (although the Germans CAN reinforce London if it was taken), and 2) force the Germans to EITHER use a fighter to take out the sub or force submerge, OR forces the Germans to use navy to attack the Russian sub (bad idea, German naval units used to attack will be stranded west of Algeria), OR forces the Germans NOT to unite the fleet.  In the last case, the Germans have attacking force 4 inf 4 tank 6 fighters 1 bomber, which I think is pretty risky for the Germans, although I haven’t actually cracked the numbers recently.

Now, if Germany DOES decide to take one of the options that results in fleet unification, that PROBABLY means that London was not invaded.  There are a few permutations, but the fact is that the Russian sub must be blown up by German navy (preventing a deal of unification), or that the Russian sub must be blown up or forced to submerge by German air (which weakens any German attack on London to the point that it is very risky).

So the German fleet of 5 trns 3 sub 1 destroyer 1 battleship unites off France, with dhit 18 count 11, while the UK has 1 battleship, 2 transports, 5 fighters, and 1 bomber for ohit 23 count 10.  Which is not bad for the Germans, but the US can follow with 2 trns 1 destroyer 3 fighter 1 bomber, which will wipe out the remnants of the German fleet.

The UK/US counters are entirely dependent on the UK and US first turn builds, and first and second turn moves.  UK and US still have the option of using their second turn builds to respond to the German second turn build.

–

But even if that DOES prevent German fleet unification, it forces the Allies into a KGF, and it does NOT kill the Baltic fleet, which means that the later Allied turns are going to have to deal with that considerably sized Baltic fleet, which is by no means simple.

That is - there is a counter to the stop the German fleets from uniting, but I do not believe it is a SIMPLE counter, because the Germans have a lot of counterplay possibilities.

[Guest]

JSP, was that the counter you had in mind?

[Jennifer]

Sea Zone 12:

Russia: 1 Submarine
England: 1 Battleship, 2 Transports
America: 1 Destroyer, 2 Transports

Germany:  1 Battleship, 1 Transport, 5 Fighters, 1 Bomber (tops)

Would recommend an American AA Gun in Algeria as well, force at least 1 fighter to be subject to AA Fire.  That means Algeria would have:

England: 2 Infantry, 1 Artillery, 1 Armor
America: 2 Infantry, 1 Armor, 1 AA Gun (or 1 Artillery)

Germany survives with 2 fighters, bomber and a battleship, fleet is NOT unified (SZ 5 cannot get to SZ 12 in one round.)  England hits German Battleship with 2 Fighters, 1 Bomber on England’s next turn.

German unification lies below the waves.

[Guest]

@Jennifer:

Germany:  1 Battleship, 1 Transport, 5 Fighters, 1 Bomber (tops)

Nope.

A) You left out the German sub from Z08.  That would survive at Gibraltar.
B) You are likely to have 6ftr available.  It depends on the Russian opening, of course, but Russia attacking BEL/WRU is not an unusual combination.

So that would demolish the Z12 fleet.  It is true that prevents the unification, but no “decent” player would trade all that Allied navy just to kill the German Med fleet (calculated outcome is that no planes die).

This only becomes a reasonable move when there are 4 or fewer German fighters.  That won’t happen much.

With the corrected unit count, this is not a good way to prevent the fleets from uniting.

Peace