J1 Two IC Build

[U-505]

@Jennifer:

Actually, America is perfectly capable of killing of Japan almost unilaterally in MOST cases.

As I’ve said.  With average or better dice, you can lock Japan up with England and Russian units that normally do not move to the German front ANYWAY.  And, assuming Japan went heavily to Hawaii, you can drop their capital fleet shipping to almost 50% right off the bat. (assuming again, you got at least 2 or even 3 hits in SZ 52 with 2 fighters, 1 AC, 1 Submarine, that’s not too much to hope for.  13 punch on R1, 8-11 punch on R2.  vs Destroyer, submarine, battleship, AC, 2 fighters, more is usually not wise since you want SOME aircraft for Asia - normally, or to sink the British fleet scattered around the Pacific.)

So with Japan down 1 BB, 1 AC and 2+ Fighters on USA 1 and with America building a nice fleet in response, you can actually, land lock Japan.  That’s why they need to have ICs in a KJF.  Fleet is nice, but they’re going to be needing submarines, not transports.

Your first point is completely false. Japan can easily hold off the US without Allied help in Asia. Japan needs only to strafe the TP’s out from under the US and the US can’t hurt them.

Your second point is equally false. I just can’t see how the Allies can handcuff the japanese in Asia with just the units already there. With a 3 or 4 TP build on round 1, Japan can get the 4 inf from Oki, Wake, and Phil to the mainland and probably even the 3 from Bor and E Ind without exposing them to the enemy. Couple that with the 6 units already in japan and a 4-6 inf, 2 SS/1 CV build every turn and the Japanese will have ground superiority by J2. That doesn’t even include the airforce. Japan  can base their fighters on their CV’s in sz60 and the bomber along the coast and they can be used for dual duty in the Pacific and Asia. And against a sz52 fleet with the UK fighter added, why isn’t Japan bringing the bomber and the 3rd fighter? Who cares about having extra aircraft in Asia. Japan never has to make huge gains in the first round anyway. Their only objectives need to be take China, secure what they already own and destroy the units in sz52. 3 fighters to take China and help take out what’s left of the UK fleet is more than enough. Under threat of massive landings, the Allies in Asia will retreat without the Japanese having to roll a die.

And good luck landlocking the Japanese when they still have 1 BB, 1 CV, 1 bmb, 5 TP’s, and at least 3 fig with the US starting from scratch. Unless they do something crazy like building an IC on J1. Then maybe you can do it.

[Jennifer]

Japan can’t afford to strafe the Transports.  (Assuming America buys any.)  And why should America buy them until the Jap fleets are completely destroyed?  10 Submarines, 1 Battleship, 2 Destroyers is more then enough to take out a few pesky warships Japan has.  2 Aircraft Carriers, 4 Fighters, 1 Battleship, 2 Destroyers, 5 Submarines works just as well too, only with much better defense.  Notice neither of those fleets have transports for you to “strafe” out.

The transports come in around USA 3 or 4 and then just pick off islands or mass troops in SFE.  By this point, if you had chosen a good game to do KJF (and there are some pre-reqs) the Japanese fleet should be destroyed and Japan should be limited to producing ground units in Asian ICs and maybe some naval units or fighter units in Japan herself.  None of which have the range to stop you from collecing islands.

[newpaintbrush]

@Jennifer:

Japan can’t afford to strafe the Transports.  (Assuming America buys any.)  And why should America buy them until the Jap fleets are completely destroyed?

Because it is a lot easier to go KJF if you have at least one transport to secure fighter bases.

[Guest]

KJF w/o TRN’s and 6 Japan starting FIGs that are able to attack at will due to island bases all over the place is a beotch for the US, thus you need TRN’s, AND troops for them.

[Jennifer]

Well, Japan’s going to be down to 4 Fighters, most likely, in any KJF scenario.

Japan after USA 1, in a situation where America should go KJF:

Battleship
Aircraft Carrier
4 Transports
4 Fighters
1 Bomber

USA:

2 Aircraft Carriers, 2 Destroyers, 2 Transports, 4 Fighters

From here out it’s a race to see who can produce the most warships, in which case Japan looses.  America has 38 IPC, Japan has 34 IPC minus islands lost.

You don’t need to buy a single transport for this.  Well, not until round 6 or 7.  Why?  Because your transports are in the rear, well out of range of enemy fighters until you have submarines to support them and destroyers to defend them.

Everyone always discounts the destroyer…I’ve won many a game on KJF through the power of destroyers.

[U-505]

@Jennifer:

Well, Japan’s going to be down to 4 Fighters, most likely, in any KJF scenario.

Japan after USA 1, in a situation where America should go KJF:

Battleship
Aircraft Carrier
4 Transports
4 Fighters
1 Bomber

USA:

2 Aircraft Carriers, 2 Destroyers, 2 Transports, 4 Fighters

From here out it’s a race to see who can produce the most warships, in which case Japan looses.  America has 38 IPC, Japan has 34 IPC minus islands lost.

You don’t need to buy a single transport for this.  Well, not until round 6 or 7.  Why?  Because your transports are in the rear, well out of range of enemy fighters until you have submarines to support them and destroyers to defend them.

Everyone always discounts the destroyer…I’ve won many a game on KJF through the power of destroyers.

Wait a minute. I’ll give you the US battleship. Assuming the 2nd Japanese CV is out of range and the Japanese player doesn’t want to sacrifice a couple TP’s to sink it using the bomber. But, in most cases, even the US bomber goes down against 1 BB and a fully loaded CV in the sz52 counterattack. So your list should look more like this:

Japan: BB, CV, 4 fig, 1 bmb, 4 TP( should be 5. I build 4 TP+1 existing on J1 but we’ll go with 3+1 existing)

US: BB, 2 DD, fig, 2 TP +$42 to spend. And the DD, 2 TP in sz10 don’t even make it there until US 2. Unless the Allies gave a 20 bid to the US, you can’t build 2 CV, 3 fig in US 1.

And by J2, Japan’s income should most likely include Bury, SFE, Chi, Sink, Ind and sometimes even Yak and Per. That adds up to $39-$41 vs. the US $38.

Finally, I never discount the destroyer. They still cost 12 IPC’s.  :-D

[Guest]

In a Pearl Ultra-Light, Japan willl have 2 BB, 2 AC, 4-5 FIGs, 1 BOM, 3 TRN on the board after J1, all of which will be out of range of the US forces except the BB, TRN  (and 1 FIG if the US builds an AC in SZ55 on US1) that could reach a loaded AC in SZ51.  And since SZ51 could also have a BB and TRN present…  not good odds for the US.

[cyan]

@ncscswitch:

In a Pearl Ultra-Light

if you want to go ultra, ultra light you can send 1 fig and 1 sub and let the fig die first.(only the American fig is left usually .)  this only works in classic though. never tried it in revised to go ultra, ultra light.

[Guest]

SUB, DST, FIGs and BOM.

Stage an AC to recover FIGs off Wake, reinforce with BB at Wake.
Nothing for the US to counter…

[frood]

Back on Japan ICs - I just built a 2nd (well, 3rd I guess) IC in India on J3 - the first was in Manchuria on J1.

The India IC is defended by 6 Inf 6 Ftr, so it’s safe (except from SBRs - doh!) Some more Art and Inf are just behind in FIC and Armor built in India can strike Caucasus next round. I did this because I was able to build 5 Arm in addition anyway, and any more units would have been on Japan start of J4, which would only reach Russia J6 at the earliest. The new IC will produce units that will have effect defensively already after J4 and will be able to attack in J5.

I think I should have built the first one in FIC, given that on UK1 the UK retreated from India. Oh well.

[Jennifer]

Once you break 50 IPC a round, you can have 3 ICs and not have a big problem.  9 Tanks is enough to crush Russia, usually.  (Excpet when you’re on round 19/20 I think.)  Meanwhile, your fleet is now free for other exploits.

[ezto]

Going for russia japan ultimately needs 3 IC in the mainland. and yes I can supply all of them and Japan.

[frood]

I’m liking the East Indies IC - it is protected by water, and can supply 4 units instead of 3. Also, since they’ll be shipped with TRNs, they can be going to Africa, Persia, Australia - all next round. But probably an FIC IC first.

[Jennifer]

As I mentioned before, KJF isn’t really an option if Japan doesn’t go heavy to Pearl.  You need to be able to take out a Jap BB and Carrier on USA 1 in order to gain the advantage, preferably a couple of fighters as well.  Likewise, if Japan goes heavy and does extremely well, it’s also not wise to do a KJF.

However, if Japan is left with a BB, AC, 2 Fig at Pearl and you hit it with 3 Fig, Bomber, Battleship and Transport you can do some serious damage while building a couple of carriers to even the Capital Ship count (maybe exceed it if your BB lives) and press the battle, maintaining the advantage or forcing Japan to yield Asia to teh Russians to build a fleet just barely strong enough to defend against you.

[Guest]

I would argue that you are wrong Jen…

JSP did a pretty nice job on Japan my last game, and I did Pearl Ultra-Light.

So Japan going Pearl Heavy is NOT a requirement for a KJF strat.

[Jennifer]

There’s going to be exceptions.  However, those are what my standards are for KJF vs KGF with America.

[Deaths Head 420]

As America it’s got to be KJF with minimal support through lendlease and Afrika
Japan would get on it’s first buy 2 trrny and tank and arty 2nd turn factory and bomber. After that depends on what happens. The whole time picking into russia and china, India can wait unless collonial garrison is there
We don’t bid so the extra cash would be nice.
Question can you bid a IC ?

[Guest]

You have some strange thoughts on builds there 420.  Japan will be starved for land units if they build as you state.

[frimmel]

I second the “them’s some strange builds,” 420. Since when can Japan afford a BOM?  :? Frankly, when before say turn 6 can anyone afford a BOM?  :?

The US can afford BOMs.

IN PACIFIC.  :-)

IC and BOM that’s a new one. Really. Did that work? What is your opponent’s first two turns in those cases? I’m all for a Just-play-gosh-darnit.-It’s-a-game-for-Pete’s-sake attitude but that is pretty out there even for me (and I’ve been drinking this evening.)  :-)

[Jennifer]

The really scarey part is the first turn build is only 25 IPC unless I’m adding wrong.

2 Transports = 16
1 Armor = 5
1 Artillery = 4

16+5+4 = 25 still, right?

But if he want’s bombers what’s wrong with that?  Not like anyone ever goes after Japan anyway, well, other then DM, JSP and I. :P

And for the record, I’ve done 2 Bomber purchases with USA on Round 1 and Round 2 (22 IPC left usually for other builds on Round 2) to give me 5 bombers SBRing Germany every round.

But that REALLY depends on the status of Africa!!  England had BETTER have strong forces in Africa to counter Germany!