Does Germany ever build ICs?

[frood]

Just curious - sometimes it’s frustrating to have German units built so far from the main lines, an it takes a while to get them into combat. Ever build an IC in Western Europe, or further East somewhere?

[Guest]

The short answer is NO.

However, a while back I floated a concept of an early German IC in Western (turn 1 actually) combined with a fleet link move of existing units.

It plays havoc with the Russian Front, but can allow Germany to hold of the Allied fleets a LONG time… POSSIBLY long enough to let Japan create a threat for Russia that Russian cannot counter when combined with an early mid-game (turn 3-4) resumption of German aggression in central Europe.

Germany’s third IC is nearly always Caucuses…

[Axis4life]

An IC is a waste of money unless you do Switches WE IC naval blockade.  Japan is really the only country that should build an IC.

[frood]

I guess it’s expensive and dangerous, but having an IC in Ukraine could be nice - 3 Inf reinforcements arriving instantly, instead of 2 or 3 rounds later… But if Russia gets it - very unpleasant. If you could hold it though it might make things a lot harder for the Russians.

[Guest]

It would have to be an early build to be viable, and doing it too early invites a US North African Dominace Strat that would be VERY nasty if the US got hold of that Ukraine IC.

[frood]

Oh yeah, those Americans do like to come across the top of North Africa. So Germany would need to control Africa as well - which would divert as many units as you’d gain on the russian front. Still, maybe I’ll try it once, just to learn from the experience.

[Guest]

And therein lies the problem.

Germany cannot build an IC, support naval interdiction, maintain a presence and expansion in Africa AND keep Russia held at bay.  They don’t have the income to do all 3.

[frood]

So Germany’s game basically is this: keep the allies from landing by building coastal defences and throwing any navy you have in the way as a speedbump, and do your darndest to pound the snot out of the Russians. Do you usually evac Africa then?

[Guest]

As I said, Germany can’t do all 3.

So call me a 2 1/2 player.
I reinforce the Baltic to make the Allies spend a turn killing the Baltic Fleet. (as opposed to a full scale German Atlantic power move)
I fight like hell for Africa income early to boost Germany’s income before I give up on Africa due to strong Allied landings (about 4 turns)
I trade with Russia so that Russia loses her major forces against German INF and gradually increase the force load to lurch forward at about 1 territory every other or every 3rd round. (Goal being Caucuses Turn 5-6)

Add in Japan, and it usually works :-)

[mojo]

yea thats about it. i’ve tried to go all out with germany to moscow it has worked, but most of the time your stretched out to far. so now i play to hold on and stall the allies so japan can take moscow. nothing always works but i believe it’s my best chance of winning.

[Guest]

Short answer: It doesn’t make sense to build an IC for ground troops if the IC is less than three spaces away.

Policy Paper #07 at Caspian Sub goes over this.  Here’s the appendix that goes through the scenarios.  Enjoy.

Appendix A: The Donut Shop and the Paczki Shop*
Let’s start with the Donut Shop, a.k.a. an IC built in the Ukraine.
For starters, you won’t be building tanks at that IC.  If you did want tanks there, you wouldn’t bother building a complex because it’s cheaper to build them in Berlin.  Here’s why: R1 you build the complex.  R2 you build 3tnk.  Alternately, R1 you build three tanks in Berlin/Rome.  R2 they move to Ukraine.  So they get there at the same time, but you have sunk 15IPCs in an IC you don’t need.  The no-IC route is more flexible, less risky, and just as fast for tanks.

Now let’s look at infantry built there.  Here’s the chart:

Now let’s look at infantry built there.  Here’s the chart:

                       In Berlin        In E. Europe     In Ukraine      IPCs Spent    
R1        no IC        6inf                                              18   
R2        no IC        3inf             6inf                             27
R3        no IC        3inf             3inf             6inf            36
R4        no IC        3inf             3inf             9inf            45

R1        With IC                                        1IC             15   
R2        With IC                                        1IC 3inf        24   
R3        With IC                                        1IC 6inf        33
R4        With IC                                        1IC 9inf        42  Â

Without the IC, by the end of R3 you have as much defensive gear in Ukraine as you would with the IC, and you have bought enough gear for 5rounds.  It cost you 3IPCs more, but you have more defense in Berlin and Eastern Europe, and you are more flexible in Central Europe.  And if the tide turns against you, it costs you nothing to abandon Ukraine.

Next up, the Paczki Shop, a.k.a. the Eastern Europe complex.
Quick note: without the IC, take the 15 IPCs you would have spent on the IC and build 5inf.  R2 move them to Eastern Europe.  You are now 6IPCs of gear ahead of the IC production.

Don’t build the Donut Shop or the Paczki Shop.  Unless the IC is at least 3 spaces away, you’re better off building the gear in your starting complex and marching east.

*Kudos to V-Disc for the naming conventions.

More CSub: http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/Caspian_Sub/

[Jennifer]

Well, I, for one, have used the Western Europe Industrial Complex manuever quite well.  It forces England to Turtle instead of trying to counter your Atlantic Fleet leaving the allies at the mercy of Germany. (this is especially good with the NA giving Germany a free submarine per round.)

The bummer is that you have to pull out of Eastern Europe to consolidate your forces before pushing back in.  That gives Russia a lot of starting capital to operate with.  So don’t do this unless you know you are superior to your opponent.

BTW, this is about the only case I will actually blow the 16 IPCs for a carrier in the Baltic Sea.  I really see this as a waste of cash.  It gives you almost no offensive abilities and only protects ships you don’t really NEED to win the game.  Besides, 16 IPC is 4 Artillery Pieces or 3X the offensive punch against Russia in units. (+4 on your infantry and +8 for the units themselves, that’s 12 attack (roughly 2 hits) vs 4 attack (maybe a hit))

[rjclayton]

Actually Jen, it’s 4X the offensive punch (or 3X more punch).  4 art @ 2 + 4 inf @ 2 = 16 vs. 4 inf @ 1 = 4  16 vs. 4 = 4X.

[frood]

Once the IC is present though, it does give you the option to deliver units instantly, which might be critical in some circumstances.

I don’t know, I just hate those Inf. taking so long to get to the front. I guess TRNs are another option.

[rjclayton]

Crazy Straw’s analysis shows that it doesn’t really take that long for the inf to get to the front.  Yes on the second turn you would have 3 inf in UKR with the IC and none without the IC, but on the third turn you would have 6 inf in UKR either way.

[Jennifer]

@rjclayton:

Actually Jen, it’s 4X the offensive punch (or 3X more punch).  4 art @ 2 + 4 inf @ 2 = 16 vs. 4 inf @ 1 = 4  16 vs. 4 = 4X.

That’s what I was trying to say.  My words just got garbled in my mind, sorry.  Hey, I’m a math major, not an English major!!!

[Jennifer]

Okay, but you are all assuming Germany has Ukraine on R1 for some reason.  (Can’t build an IC in newly captured territory.)

Also, why wouldn’t the 5 infantry be better?  Eh?

At least with transports you have the option of hitting England if she’s lightly defended for a quick buck.

[cyan]

how about if the uk/us captures france. beacuse it takes one turn to buld a factory you should be able to hold france for the rest of the game.

[newpaintbrush]

@cyan:

how about if the uk/us captures france. beacuse it takes one turn to buld a factory you should be able to hold france for the rest of the game.

Moving off topic there; the question is about a GERMAN built IC.

[Guest]

Western… MAYBE… IF you are doing a Naval Dominance strat with Germany and think you can pull it off (high enough bid in Africa that you can get the 10-11 IPC’s transfered from UK to Germany to have Germany only at a 10 IPC disadvantage to the UK/USA combo, and that Japan can move fast enough to tie up Russia completely.

Otherwise, no way; except perhaps late game if you want to just “rub it in” and you build a German IC in Eastern Canada :-D