Napoleon and alexander

[Imperious Leader]

Yes but thats exactly what we are being asked to do. Decide who is the best across all time. I just believe that military conquest has to mean something once the battle is over. The way the battle is fought and prepared both before and after has everything to do with the quality of a substantive military victory.

add Jermo: the Zulus had plenty of rifles in the battle. They got them off the 1,000 dead soldiers they butchered only a few days before Rorkes Drift. And remember those guns had to be loaded quite often as the magazines were small.

[cyan]

@Imperious:

Yes but thats exactly what we are being asked to do. Decide who is the best across all time. I just believe that military conquest has to mean something once the battle is over. The way the battle is fought and prepared both before and after has everything to do with the quality of a substantive military victory.

what about the battle of autzerlitz; austria went to war with france agian. it is said to be napoleon’s greatest victory. i tink yourright but the only battles but that would mean anything were waterloo and teh bombing of hiroshama. i don’t think it’s alexander fault for his empire not being sustained i think if he had a son it would have.  and alexanders goal was t conqure asia not to frm a unvirsal govertment withen his final two years of life. geting rifles off dead bodies is like reusing arrows beacuse your out. most of them will be junk.

[Mr Ghoul]

I don’t know how you can argue that Alexander was a poor general. The guy never lost a battle and he fought at the front getting his hands dirty or should I say bloody. The fact that his empire fragmented after he died or he didn’t completely change the style of warfare takes nothing away from his ability to general. The guy new how to command, period.

He had a small army and also fought small armies. They were nothing compared to say for example Cannae or Battle of Alesia

The battle at Gaugamela was large. There was 40 000 plus Macedonians against 100 000 or more Persians. As far as I know, anyhow. As well, the battle against Porus? Poris? in Indian was just as big. There could be others, I don’t know for sure, I’m not a historian.

Alexander won a battle and had sex with other men while his enemies planned how they would overthrow his yoke once he left. What kind of terrible plan is that?

C,mon, really. No, that’s all Alexander the Great did. He won one battle and had sex… that its…shakes head

What about Caesar? Et tu Brutus and all that… no plotting or backstabbing or overthrowing going on in Imperial Rome.Â

[Imperious Leader]

I really am not saying hes a poor general only that compared to others who conquered more with much larger armies, and conquered with such a methodology that they in most cases build a lasting control on the vanquished that they would by comparison have an even greater influence on the idea of “greatest general” I dont buy into this concept that “a general is only good for winning a battle” I look into his leadership as a whole not only how he sends his troops or fights himself with a sword.

If Ceaser or Napoleon met Alexander in battle and both brought the evolutionary military concepts that they were credited with either of the first two would have beaten Alexander rather easily. The romans were too disciplined and methodical, while Napoleon would have cut Alexanders supply lines and outflanked him with better use of mobile warfare.

I think alexander could not have coped with 1.3 million men under arms. His army was quite small by modern standards. Against Rome they too were featuring much larger formations in combat. Alexander might have been a good Marshall commanding one of many armies  but not “the army”

[Guest]

IL that is an invalid comparison.

Alexander CREATED many methods of warfare that worked well with the implements he had in the time he had them.

You can;t then go and say (give Alexander guns and field artillery" and have him go head to head with another 3000 years of military tactics advances.

Hell, Alexander would lose to your average SEARGEANT under those standards.

[Imperious Leader]

I never said anything about either general having to be limited to their own technology. The analogy was drawn to remove this possibility. What i meant was if Ceaser or napoleon just “puff” entered Alexanders time and used the same materials but brought their own ideas to how war should be fought they would have succeeded much better than Alexander because they “invented” new military ideas to the world that were never used or considered. So they use the old materials but take the ideas and apply them. What Alexander did in the time of Rome or France was so fully refuted it would have looked like “an old trick”

In this manner we can extrapolate the best Chess player because the ideas from the past in how the Chess game was won or lost ( e.g. the tactics) was very poorly constructed and could have been easily refuted with modern chess theory’s. That is a major reason why Alexander is not the best … because he didn’t stand on the shoulders of history to learn from its experience. This important advantage of reflection would not be possible in Alexanders time because of the limited knowledge before his own time.

This is the only honest way to compare one general from another in different times.

To bring the Chess analogy back for perspective Players like Paul Morphy, or Philidor or even Alekhine would rate as low rated grandmasters by todays standards.

History is replete with examples of using the ideas of the past and learning from them.

Its like comparing a doctor from different centuries but they can only use the same tools to heal. The Modern doctor would have saved many more lives because he studied and came from a greater backround or foundation of knowledge. The first doctor would have drilled holes in the guys head, and the modern doctor would have made a redumentary cast so the skull could heal.

[SSG Rock]

I think it really depends on your views of what makes a great general.  Is it the strategy, tactics, methodology, diplomacy, or combinations of these?  I think Kahn is overlooked by many, because he was considered more of a raider than a general.  If he had the same army and technology, I believe he could hold his own with any of the generals mentioned.  Just my opinion, of course.  :wink:

[Guest]

IL you missed my point.

Yes, I know that we are assuming equal weapons.

But Alexander was a pioneer of battle techniques, and his army mastered those new skill sets.

But in the several thousand years after Alexander, there were improvements, not just weapons, but in tactics.  And Ceaser had the benefit of about 100 years of thsoe advances, Napoleon about 3000 years of those advances.

You would ahve to not only make up for the weapons differences, but also provide a means for Alexander to have access to that 3000 year period of general tactical advances before you could compare him to Napoleon, or somehow remove 3000 years of accumulated global knowledge that Napoleon had access to before he went back in tim to face Alexander.

[Imperious Leader]

No thats not true. They were a product of their times. The only equal playing field is materials to wage war… the knowledge of military strategy  is an acute quality of taking the knowledge and applying it in a new way. If you want to educate alexander in modern military strategy thats the same thing as giving him tanks and V-2 rockets to fight the persain empire. Knowledge ( of the development of thought of strategy)  and material ( technology really) are both a resource that must be kept out of the equation to decide who is a better general.

[Guest]

Like I said, its only fair to compare generals from the same time.  For example, lets try……

                                                       George S. Patton vs Erwin Rommel

Both were pioneers in armored warfare and both were very good at it.  So who was the better general?  Post now!!

[Imperious Leader]

Well if both had to switch sides. Id say Rommel would have won with much fewer loses and probably got the objective sooner because he understood the idea of mobile warfare better. If Patton had to deal with the italians as his "allies’  he would have shot them or told them to go home and make pizzas for his troops. He hardly understood the idea of making the best of a bad situation, while Rommel allways understood the reality of what he had to work with and could improvise allmost anything on the battlefield from scratch…. However Von Manstein was a greater general than Rommel without question.We never had to face him in battle as he spent all his time in russia.

[Guest]

Wasnt Von Manstein the guy whom did a brilliant regrouping of his forces to retake Kharkov?  Ive read about that before and it was a well executed operation that is sometimes overlooked.

[Imperious Leader]

Yes he did this. He was in command of Army group south  from 1941-1943. many of his ideas were held back by hitler, but when he was allowed to do his own thing he suceeded well. Nearly every mistake hitler made was argued against before he made it by manstein but to no avail. Rommel was in a far away area where Hitler hardly understood desert warfare or was comfortable with it. Thats why he was able to do and get away with alot more things that hitler would have frown upon.

Mainstein was in charge of the stalingrad relief force and also commanding at kursk…but in those efforts he hated the method the battle was conducted. He wanted to russians to advance and then cut them off rather than attack a prepared defense.

Manstein was a great at defense. The germans faced incredable odds in 1943 and he was able to hold much of the territory and in some cases retook some back.

[Guest]

Never forget the much vaunted statement by Patton in Africa…

“Rommel you magnificent bastard I READ YOUR BOOK!”

Which means Patton LEARNED from Rommel.  So I would have to place Rommel ahead of Patton.

Kind of like BGEN William “Billy” Mitchel is probably one of the greatest air commanders in history, eventhough he was “between the wars”.  He is the one who say what was possible with Airforce, and pushed the War Department to work with AF.  Without General Mitchel in the 1920’s, the US would have entered WWII as ill prepared as the Polish did…

[Imperious Leader]

“Rommel you magnificent bastard I READ YOUR BOOK!”

Which means Patton LEARNED from Rommel.

I dont base my opinions on a movie script. You have to look at the historical record of how he performed under different situations. Patton allways led his forces when he had the advantage and was invaribly assigned excellent logistical supply. He never had to fight a desperate battle when he was outnumbered 3 to 1 and still managed to come out on top. He was a great general when he had overwhelming numbers.

The germans were usually on the short end of the stick in combat except in very early campaigns and about 1-2 short periods in a single battle.

PS dont use wikpedia to support that movie quote… any bloke can just stick any type of jiberish imaginable on that site. Alot of that movie is accurate but many of his lines were embellished to add more effect. Of course he said many improper things and got himself in alot of trouble but in my books i have of him that was not one of his ‘real moments’.

[Guest]

And what of Mitchel then?

Never fought a battle, but without him we would have had bi-plane observers to counter the Luftwaffe and Imperial Air Force.

[Imperious Leader]

He amoung others supported the idea that made large capital warships like battleships an idea of the past. But as you know the Japanese also knew about the importance of airplanes.

The bombing campaign over germany was not as productive as men as like him and gen. Spaatz would have hoped.

I dont think they are in the same catagory as a proper land general.

[Guest]

“Proper land general”???

OK.  I have had enough.  Otherwise this former USAF Cadet will have to get medevil on your ass :-P

[balungaloaf]

just go with the “bomb them back to the stone age” quote, should beat every land general there is.

[Guest]

“It is probable that future war will be conducted by a special class, the Air Force, as it was by the armored knights of the middle ages.”
Brigadier General William “Billy” Mitchell, Winged Defense, 1924

“In the development of air power, one has to look ahead and not backward and figure out what is going to happen, not too much of what has happened”
Ibid.

Both quotes courtsey of Contrails Volume 33, 1987-1988 edition