I usually buy a carrier on G1 for Baltic fleet after seeing how effective it is and I occasionally buy a transport for Med depending on how my opening turns go because the extra Africa IPCs are a big help and if i can distract US there then it is good.
I could see a tran, maybe two in the med….to me the carrier in the baltic is cute, but not as good as, say, 2 infantry, 2 armor you could use against Russia.
Playing one now, looks like his entire fleet will be crushed under the heal of the British Empire with maybe a bit of mopping up with the US and he still won’t have the british fleet destroyed.
Keep in mind I do have more defense power then you have attacking power Jen :)
one bad roll for you in round 1, doubled up with a good defense roll. and thats a ouch.
I could see a tran, maybe two in the med….to me the carrier in the baltic is cute, but not as good as, say, 2 infantry, 2 armor you could use against Russia.
Playing one now, looks like his entire fleet will be crushed under the heal of the British Empire with maybe a bit of mopping up with the US and he still won’t have the british fleet destroyed.
If you don’t build a carrier in Baltic on G1 the British can destroy the Baltic fleet pretty easy on UK1 with just 2 fighters and a bomber which will destroy the transport which can be used against Russia in Karelia which would be a waste to just see destroyed. At least in my opinion :-)
Our group plays with Total Victory Conditions (12 Cities), in a match play format, so:
I usually go for either 2 task forces with 2 BB, AC, Destroyer, Sub and 4 transports per task force, or;
a task force of 3 BB, 2 AC, 2 Destroyers, Sub and 5 transports.
I try and add a naval piece every turn so I can make the push later in the game.
The very first game we played, I drew Germany and won taking out London and the USA.
I still have won more games/matches than lost, when playing Germany.
Keep in mind I do have more defense power then you have attacking power Jen :)
one bad roll for you in round 1, doubled up with a good defense roll. and thats a ouch.
I could see a tran, maybe two in the med….to me the carrier in the baltic is cute, but not as good as, say, 2 infantry, 2 armor you could use against Russia.
Playing one now, looks like his entire fleet will be crushed under the heal of the British Empire with maybe a bit of mopping up with the US and he still won’t have the british fleet destroyed.
If you don’t build a carrier in Baltic on G1 the British can destroy the Baltic fleet pretty easy on UK1 with just 2 fighters and a bomber which will destroy the transport which can be used against Russia in Karelia which would be a waste to just see destroyed. At least in my opinion :-)
A) Yes, but if I go around you then what do you have? In our current game you have 44 IPCs sitting in the water doing nothing for you. (I sutracted the fighters since they can be used on land still.)
B) You might get lucky against the Brits, but then you have the Americans and a Russian sub to deal with. Between the 3 of them, somethings going to burn. And remember, the Allies only need to knock out the wet forces, not the air forces.
C) I don’t usually bother with the Baltic fleet. As long as it stays in the Baltic, I don’t care. I can use those fighters and bomber elsewhere, like Africa or Gibraltar, etc. I have funny uses for my Royal Air Force, I always did. Drove a couple of old players on this board mad in AA 2nd Ed. Prolly drive even NCSC insane if he saw it in a normal game. Basically, in non-rated games (ie when competition isnt on the line, I only want to have fun) I pull some of the craziest stunts you’ll ever see!
For instance, I’ve purchased 2 fighters with Russia before. In AAR I’ve purchased 2 DDs with Russia for the Med. You wanna see Germany get nervous? Get two DDs on R1, 3 TRN on R2 and then go after S. Europe or W. Europe. You’ll loose, but not before Germany has a heart attack! And let me tell you, Germany will never again let you build a fleet in the Med with Russia! hehe.
Keep in mind I do have more defense power then you have attacking power Jen :)
one bad roll for you in round 1, doubled up with a good defense roll. and thats a ouch.
I could see a tran, maybe two in the med….to me the carrier in the baltic is cute, but not as good as, say, 2 infantry, 2 armor you could use against Russia.
Playing one now, looks like his entire fleet will be crushed under the heal of the British Empire with maybe a bit of mopping up with the US and he still won’t have the british fleet destroyed.
If you don’t build a carrier in Baltic on G1 the British can destroy the Baltic fleet pretty easy on UK1 with just 2 fighters and a bomber which will destroy the transport which can be used against Russia in Karelia which would be a waste to just see destroyed. At least in my opinion :-)
A) Yes, but if I go around you then what do you have? In our current game you have 44 IPCs sitting in the water doing nothing for you. (I sutracted the fighters since they can be used on land still.)
B) You might get lucky against the Brits, but then you have the Americans and a Russian sub to deal with. Between the 3 of them, somethings going to burn. And remember, the Allies only need to knock out the wet forces, not the air forces.
C) I don’t usually bother with the Baltic fleet. As long as it stays in the Baltic, I don’t care. I can use those fighters and bomber elsewhere, like Africa or Gibraltar, etc. I have funny uses for my Royal Air Force, I always did. Drove a couple of old players on this board mad in AA 2nd Ed. Prolly drive even NCSC insane if he saw it in a normal game. Basically, in non-rated games (ie when competition isnt on the line, I only want to have fun) I pull some of the craziest stunts you’ll ever see!
For instance, I’ve purchased 2 fighters with Russia before. In AAR I’ve purchased 2 DDs with Russia for the Med. You wanna see Germany get nervous? Get two DDs on R1, 3 TRN on R2 and then go after S. Europe or W. Europe. You’ll loose, but not before Germany has a heart attack! And let me tell you, Germany will never again let you build a fleet in the Med with Russia! hehe.
Just for kicks, I always wanted to see an AC/Trans buy USSR1. Land 2 fighters on it. Would be interesting to see the result.
BTW, the German fleet was utterly destroyed. I didn’t even need American ships to destroy the German fleet. Yes, the British boats were destroyed as well, and it’s a shame that I got horrbile dice rolls, but even in a worst case scenario, the German Aircraft Carrier only delays the destruction of the Northern Fleet, it doesn’t save it. (BTW, it also cost the Germans a fighter, another asset they really couldnt afford.)
Europe’s future was delayed 1 round at the cost of 26 IPCs it would not have otherwise lost, almost a full turn’s production. (CV, FIG that were destroyed.)
As for Russia, didn’t think of an AC…though, I was more looking for offensive units. Something to force Germany to use Luftwaffe and Kriegsmarine against to pull some pressure off England. Gives them a choice to hit Russia or England, meanwhile the team they don’t hit take out the rest of their fleet (if any exist) and establish dominance of the Med for a round or three. That means America only needs to deploy starting forces in Africa (or England, either way) and clean up the Continent.
If you are willing to commit the money you can buy perhaps some more ships for the Baltic Fleet and maybe even attack the British Fleet if you are ballsy enough and doing well against Russia. Of course if US is doing its job then you probably cant wipe out the fleet anyway
If the US is going Pac strat, then yea, you could take out the British fleet.
G1: BB/TRN to Gibraltar. (Take it with 1 inf, so British planes can’t land there.) , Either attack TRN in E. Canada or move Sub with BB/TRN. Buy AC, maybe AC + SS or two.
G2: Join fleets in SZ7. You now should have: 1 AC, 2 FIG, 1 DD, 1BB, 2 TRN and 2-5 SS (depending if you bought two and/or used one in E. Canada)
That’s a huge fleet and more then enough to stop USA/UK from landing troops in the Atlantic for a LONG time (assuming the US went Pac instead and UK couldn’t take out or block your fleet merger somehow.)
You’ll of course experience a significant set back in Europe for a round or two. But you’ll own Africa no problem and be able to push on to Russia since the Allies will be unable to land troops for a good number of rounds from that point on.
Still, I don’t recommend it. There are too many “IFs” in that plan for me to be happy with. Though, it is a tactic I’d use in a “fun” game.
You forget 1 thing in that anlysis Jen…
Now the UK needs to build more capital ships to defend their TRN’s. unguarded TRNs and German air force… nice combiunation for Germany :-)
So it is a 2-4 round delay, depending on the strngth and position of the Luftwaffe, and whether or not the US wants to dedicate their fleet to protecting UK TRN’s (meanign both UK and USA are basically stuck landing hte same places, with no real wiggle room to go back to Africa, as an example…)
@ncscswitch:
You forget 1 thing in that anlysis Jen…
Now the UK needs to build more capital ships to defend their TRN’s. unguarded TRNs and German air force… nice combiunation for Germany :-)
So it is a 2-4 round delay, depending on the strngth and position of the Luftwaffe, and whether or not the US wants to dedicate their fleet to protecting UK TRN’s (meanign both UK and USA are basically stuck landing hte same places, with no real wiggle room to go back to Africa, as an example…)
UK doesn’t need to build more ships to defend trans. They have 1 BB, 1 CV usually, on UK2, what more do they need??? That’s already a decent escort for 3 transports.
What I was getting at is that germany would have to combine their fleets because they absolutely MUST have that BB with their fleet to support it. Otherwise, you’re going to loose it all and England/USA will just come in a round later. (Remember, the US has 1 BB and probably a CV too if they built it on R1. That’s plenty to defend against 4-6 fighters and a bomber.)
The AC buy for teh Baltic is to give Germany time to get INF to the Russian front.
It is designed to biuy you 3 turns, and to force UK to be slower on their attacks (often disuading them from Norway on UK1 to prevent fleet exposure to those SUBs) and to make UK spend money on Capital ships instead of loaded TRNs.
You get 3 free turns of unmolested INF builds going east (without being strafed by annoyance UK landings), and you slow UK down. Even if it is OEN capital ship… even if it is 1 DST, then Germany’s net cost is actually only 4 IPC (since UK had to spend 12 on fleet because of hte AC), as well as the round that the Royal AF is killign navy instead of land forces…
It is a VERY good long term investement for Germany. 16 IPC’s to make an otherwise worthless fleet into an actual threat/consideration, making UK spend money on ships instead of invasion forces, tying up UK AF, German forces reaching the Russian front without any losses to UK landings along the way (or beign diverted to protect against UK landings…)
It didn’t slow anything down in the last game. Yea, UK got delayed one turn, but the US took Fin/Nor anyway and the entire northern German fleet was scuddled.
Okay, it got some ridiculously good rolls. But odds are, the British fleet would have had dBB, CV and 3 newly built TRANS on the round after the battle. That means they’d be down an RAF, but they’d still have plenty of movement power to bolster Russia and Russia in AAR is more then capable of taking the burnt of the German army for a round or two, especially if they are diminished 16 IPCs.
So the Germans are short 26 IPCs (16 for purchases) 10 for a fighter. It could even be 36 if it lost BOTH fighters on that carrier - a very likely scenario. UK is down 3 Trans or 24 IPC worth to continue to be of aid to Russia. So 24 IPC loss to UK vs 36 IPC loss to Germany.
I understand that it’s 59 IPCs in units lost to England (2 Fig, 1 Bmb, 3 Trn) and 72 IPCs lost to Germany (1 CV, 2 FIG, 2 SS, 1 TRN, 1 DD) but realistically speaking, Germany doesn’t need the TRN, SS’s or DD and the CV isn’t needed either,but cost them 16 to produce. Meanwhile, England doesn’t need the two fighters and bomber to annoy Germany and defend Russia. They help in both cases, but they arn’t needed to win victory in either case.
I’m just saying. If you cannot merge your fleet on G2, then you’ve wasted 16 IPCs and potentially cost yourself 33% of your air force, units desperately needed by Germany in the first few rounds of the game, until you have tanks to make up for their destruction.
It didn’t slow anything down in the last game. Yea, UK got delayed one turn, but the US took Fin/Nor anyway and the entire northern German fleet was scuddled.
Okay, it got some ridiculously good rolls. But odds are, the British fleet would have had dBB, CV and 3 newly built TRANS on the round after the battle. That means they’d be down an RAF, but they’d still have plenty of movement power to bolster Russia and Russia in AAR is more then capable of taking the burnt of the German army for a round or two, especially if they are diminished 16 IPCs.
So the Germans are short 26 IPCs (16 for purchases) 10 for a fighter. It could even be 36 if it lost BOTH fighters on that carrier - a very likely scenario. UK is down 3 Trans or 24 IPC worth to continue to be of aid to Russia. So 24 IPC loss to UK vs 36 IPC loss to Germany.
I understand that it’s 59 IPCs in units lost to England (2 Fig, 1 Bmb, 3 Trn) and 72 IPCs lost to Germany (1 CV, 2 FIG, 2 SS, 1 TRN, 1 DD) but realistically speaking, Germany doesn’t need the TRN, SS’s or DD and the CV isn’t needed either,but cost them 16 to produce. Meanwhile, England doesn’t need the two fighters and bomber to annoy Germany and defend Russia. They help in both cases, but they arn’t needed to win victory in either case.
I’m just saying. If you cannot merge your fleet on G2, then you’ve wasted 16 IPCs and potentially cost yourself 33% of your air force, units desperately needed by Germany in the first few rounds of the game, until you have tanks to make up for their destruction.
I dont think this is true.
If you buy an AC/transports
1 - UK cannot build IC, fleet and protect the island w/o significant risk
2 - UK cannot build much of a fleet UK1, as it needs inf, especially with an IC
Lets say IC/5 inf (you can do AC/inf also, but thats another discussion)
Now Germany has options.
a) where is UK fleet? 6 fighters, bomber +BB/sub/transport can attack sea zone 8. UK/USA max is (BB,2DD,4trans+sub = 16). Germany offense = 28. Germany should wipe that fleet out, AND have remants + AC + trans left. Any UK fleet is dead (PLUS they cant have adequate IC support)
b) Consolidate and you have a fleet that lasts many rounds + Japan should put IMMEDIATE pressure on USA income (since USA will have Atl builds, Japan can run free)
c) Fleet can help now in med or baltic. UK needs USA fleet to arrive before it can do much, slowing UK considerably
d) Africa is axis (either german or japan)
Squirecam
If the US is going Pac strat, then yea, you could take out the British fleet.Â
G1: BB/TRN to Gibraltar. (Take it with 1 inf, so British planes can’t land there.) , Either attack TRN in E. Canada or move Sub with BB/TRN. Buy AC, maybe AC + SS or two.
G2: Join fleets in SZ7. You now should have: 1 AC, 2 FIG, 1 DD, 1BB, 2 TRN and 2-5 SS (depending if you bought two and/or used one in E. Canada)
That’s a huge fleet and more then enough to stop USA/UK from landing troops in the Atlantic for a LONG time (assuming the US went Pac instead and UK couldn’t take out or block your fleet merger somehow.)
You’ll of course experience a significant set back in Europe for a round or two. But you’ll own Africa no problem and be able to push on to Russia since the Allies will be unable to land troops for a good number of rounds from that point on.
Still, I don’t recommend it. There are too many “IFs” in that plan for me to be happy with. Though, it is a tactic I’d use in a “fun” game.
If the German BB and TRN attack the British BB in sz13 then Germany will likely not capture Egypt which will allow the Brits to swing their Indian Navy into the Med which they can use to attack the Germans and reinforce Egypt perhaps which would make it harder for Germany to take and with another UK fleet attacking Germany thats bad anyway
Jen, your dismissal of the value of that UK AF is adequate proof that you still need some time to become adjusted to Revised.
Check out my last game with Darth to see what those UK FIGs COULD be worth, if not sacrificed on killing a fleet that is no risk to UK’s capital.
And also realize Jen that even with your great rolls, you lost 59 IPC’s of units as UK… units of air and navy that YOU NEED to get your forces to Europe. Germany spent only 16 IPC’s to make that happen.
UK is out TWO TURNS of production value units that they NEED. Germany is out only 1/3 of one round of production to make it happen.
Net German benefit, even with your own self-described great dice: $43 IPC’s… one full turn of produciton for Germany.
NCSC, I had atrocious rolls. I should have come out of that battle with a damaged BB and a Carrier, I came out of it with nothing.
Squire: If your BB/TRN from Med are in range of UK’s fleet in SZ8, USA should block with a Transport. That prevents you from attacking the British fleet effectively.
Also, I usually see games where some of the German Airforce are out of position and cannot make the attack in SZ8 due to fuel limitations. This is normally because the German player wants to secure his land holdings near Russia and has chosen to use his air force to help enforce his claims.
Also, bear in mind, that US Fleet is with the UK Fleet. That’s (on G2) 1 AC, 1 BB, 1 DD, 4 or 5 TRN (depending on the need to block the Med fleet from joining the battle), 2 FIG and 1 Russian Submarine vs at most, 6 fighters, 1 bomber, 1 AC, 2 Subs and 1 Tran. That should be an easy victory for the Allies with minimal if any losses. Meanwhile, a British attack on that fleet should, as I mentioned above, result in the United Kingdom keeping both her capital warships, maybe even a fighter if the dice arn’t too biased. (I always get biased dice, DAAK hates me…I must have insulted the founder’s mom in a past life or something, I dunno…)
Long story short, if Germany buys a Carrier it will end up on the bottom of the ocean and cause minimal, if any, delay in allied assaults. Even if, by some miracle, the German fleet manages to sink the British fleet, the American fleet will finish the now severely weakened German fleet before it can be reinforced. (BTW, you don’t need to kill the luftwaffe there, that’s senseless combat.) And, say by some second miracle one of your ships manages to survive that, you have a Russian sub to contend with before you can even attempt to break through the Med to help out, or land new planes on your carrier.
In that case, you’ve delayed the allies 1 turn. (As in one full turn of combat on European soil has been post-poned.) They’ll just start on round two and now you have to either spend an entire paycheck on building a new navy, or build forces to take and hold Asia, if possible.
Unless I’m missing something. Because even by my very skewed tactical assessments, that’s how it always comes out. (I figure LL - 20% for hits against the enemy and LL + 20% for hits against me, and I’m usually NOT off by much.)
A carrier sitting in the Baltic really does not do you much good. It’s when you use it to link the med and baltic navies together that it gets to be quite powerful. Use the bid in Libya so Egypt can be taken without using the med transport, then send the med navy westwards and link with the baltic one on G2. That delays the Allies at least 2 turns because of how powerful that combined fleet is.
A carrier sitting in the Baltic really does not do you much good. It’s when you use it to link the med and baltic navies together that it gets to be quite powerful. Use the bid in Libya so Egypt can be taken without using the med transport, then send the med navy westwards and link with the baltic one on G2. That delays the Allies at least 2 turns because of how powerful that combined fleet is.
Exactly, but then you can block with the US Transport from Washington DC preventing the German fleets from combining until G3, giving Brition enough time to attack the Baltic fleet BEFORE it can join with the med fleet. (Allowing for US/USSR clean up should the dice be horribly against you.)
It makes sense later in the game. I see no reason to harrass the German fleet in the Baltic as long as it stays there. So building a carrier isn’t going to “save” your fleet. After all, it’s just one transport, so you can move 2 units around Europe easier…not like that’s going to save you from 6 British, 6 American units + 8 -10 units from Russia. I’d rather go for the jugular then a limb, if I can.
But you move that Baltic fleet out, or look like you’re moving to combine your fleets and I’m going to block you and then crush you like a grape. Meanwhile, you’re down IPCs that you cannot really afford. Brition doesn’t NEED to keep a strong fleet after UK2. It also doesnt NEED to keep a strong RAF. It’s MUCH easier if they do, but the US should, at that time, have plenty of capital ships near England to protect British assets. Meanwhile, germany NEEDS that airforce. It’s essential to the continued survival of the eastern and western fronts until Japan can get in to assist with it’s airforce.
