Replace Capital capture Cash dynamic

[Black_Elk]

I have been trying to think of a rule that might work universally to replace the capital capture, stealing cash dynamic.

What if the cash capture thing was attached to factories rather than cities? For example, here’s an idea I was just toying around with…

Factory Capture rule

Any time a factory is captured, the vanquished player must relinquish part of their IPCs to the conqueror. The total number of ipcs awarded = the total number of IPCS of the territory, and in territories directly adjacent to the captured factory, which the vanquished player controlled before the combat round in which it was conquered.

This would mean the whole purse is never taken all at once, and players can collect so long as they still have 1 factory under their control. This rule puts the emphasis on Factories and territories which border several other territories, and not so much on Capital cities.

Here are some rough numbers, based on adjacent territory control…
These are for Global 1940, though a similar concept might be applicable on other boards.

South Africa, up to 4 ipcs captured
Quebec, up to 5 ipcs captured
Sydney, up to 6 ipcs captured

India up to 6 ipcs captured

France up to 8 ipcs captured
UK up to 8 ipcs captured

Germany up to 19 ipcs captured
W. Germany up to 23 ipcs captured

Novgorod up to 6 ipcs captured
Ukraine up to 7 ipcs captured
Volgograd up to 9 ipcs captured
Moscow up to 8 ipcs captured

Northern Italy up to 16 ipcs captured
Southern Italy up to 7 ipcs captured

Western US up to 24 ipcs captured
Eastern US up to 32 ipcs captured
Central US up to 45 ipcs captured

Japan up to 8 ipcs captured

Or the same thing for any new factories that might be purchased. You can see with the adjacent production idea, that some territories are actually worth a lot more in terms of capture potential under this system. Other crush capital strategies might become weaker. Might be a long shot, but thought I’d share the idea.

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Another approach, perhaps even simpler might be to just award a set value in IPCs captured, if you take a factory of a given size. Minors worth X, Majors worth Y. This money could be taken from the vanquished enemy.

I see either system as something that might work as an alternative to Capital capture rules.

Does anyone have any alternative rules to work in a Cash capture way? Short of just eliminating this feature of the game altogether? I think capturing cash is a game driver, and good for game resolution, but stealing all the cash, all at once, and only if you take a capital, seems like it might be overkill.

I am curious if a more method that preserves the “target cash” idea, but with a bit more gradation, might be`workable?

[baron Münchhausen]

Thinking out loud:
Each Victory city captured allow to receive the territory IPCs from the ex-owner.

An IC territory captured, gives the IPC territory value to conqueror.
Plus 3 IPCs for a minor, and plus 5 IPCs for a Major Factory or an IC.

A captured capital imply to give all money but 1 IPC/per other territory still owned or, at least, the capital territory value, as the minimum given to the conqueror.

Don’t know if it works but VC worth more and are a better part on the way to Victory.

[Buran]

This is an interesting idea.  I’ll have to give it a try on one of my next games.  I think it would give a different game balance.  And who knows it my just keep France in the game for a bit longer.

[Young Grasshopper]

I like the concept, but how about this…

Nations must still reliquish all IPCs on hand to any enemy who has taken their capital, however… the vanquished nation may continue to collect income during their collect income phase for all original controlled territories on the board.

A “Rouge” nation (a nation without control of their capital) may use that income while their capital is in enemy hands, to build infantry units only, and may place them on any originally controlled territory they still control (China rules).

[knp7765]

@Young:

I like the concept, but how about this…

Nations must still reliquish all IPCs on hand to any enemy who has taken their capital, however… the vanquished nation may continue to collect income during their collect income phase for all original controlled territories on the board.

A “Rouge” nation (a nation without control of their capital) may use that income while their capital is in enemy hands, to build infantry units only, and may place them on any originally controlled territory they still control (China rules).

Good idea Grasshopper, but let’s take it one step further. Use the China rules where a “rogue” nation can collect income from whatever territories they still have and build infantry only to be placed in any of their original territories.
HOWEVER, if this “rogue” nation has an IC on any of their territories, not only can they still collect income and build infantry, they can build other units at that IC, but in a limited fashion. Perhaps use the Minor Factory rule for what they can produce there – no units over 10 IPCs.
Think of the possibilities. It might make it more of an issue for the Axis to take all 3 French main territories. If Germany just leaves Normandy alone, then France could possibly build men, artillery and tanks there for a possible counter attack on Paris.
What if Germany takes Moscow but it is one of those battles where Germany is only left with a few tanks left? If Russia still has Stalingrad, then they could possibly liberate their own capital and not have to wait on UK or US.
Sea Lion would no longer be as much of a hindrance to the Allies, although some people already play the game with Ottawa as a secondary UK capital so for them this wouldn’t change so  much.
Not sure how this might affect Calcutta in games where you still use the split UK economy. Usually when India is taken, the only UK Pacific territories left is West India and Japan usually takes that next round.

[ColonelCarter]

@knp7765:

Think of the possibilities. It might make it more of an issue for the Axis to take all 3 French main territories. If Germany just leaves Normandy alone, then France could possibly build men, artillery and tanks there for a possible counter attack on Paris.
What if Germany takes Moscow but it is one of those battles where Germany is only left with a few tanks left? If Russia still has Stalingrad, then they could possibly liberate their own capital and not have to wait on UK or US.

Not really, since losing your capital still loses all your IPCs with this rule, so you do have to wait a round before you can build again.

Going along with the “China rules”, would a rogue nation also not be able to move outside their original territory? Or is that a bit too restrictive?

[Young Grasshopper]

CC is correct, France wouldn’t be able to spend until after they use a turn to collect income.

I would say yes to infantry restricted to their original territories just like China rules. It would still help the Allies secure Africa.

[knp7765]

Yes, I understand that France would have to wait another turn before building anything at Normandy or Southern France, assuming the Axis left those territories alone. I was more referring to how some Axis players like to leave Normandy French so when the Allies land there, they can’t use the French IC. In this case, in a couple of turns France could start building stuff there and it may be a problem for Germany later on.
I’ve got to disagree on the infantry restrictions. Even with the game as it is now, I have seen empty US or UK transports taking some of the left over French infantry in Africa and taking them to Europe, perhaps to help back up US and UK units in a landing. Plus, a lot of the time I see the French infantry from French West Africa and Syria go to help defend Egypt. I think a rogue nation’s units should be able to go to other territories.
Of course, I have also often thought that the border restrictions on China were a little silly and should be lifted.

[Black_Elk]

Never thought it’d come down in favor of China rules, but I actually think they might be fun here!  :-D
might give this a try tomorrow FtF.

One idea I like,  from a game resolution standpoint,  was to provide a kind of mini capture, based on the factories, or possibly VCs. Something between “the whole purse” and “nothing at all” still not sure how that might look. But it might be cool if factories still did something for you,  provided you control one after your capital is taken. Maybe similar to the way the Burma NO allows you to build artillery as the Chinese?  Perhaps control of a factory could be a universal NO for the vanquished? Awards the ability to place cooler units, or which gets you a few extra ipcs?

As for the movement restriction (only allowed in original territories), I think it’s unnecessary, and could actually introduce a fair amount of confusion if adopted. Unlike the Chinese,  who have no fleet and can never really leave the home territories… these Nations, once vanquished, might suddenly find themselves in the “wrong place” when their capital falls. Then what? Are they trapped? Let’s say they have armies behind the lines, or in some formerly enemy or neutral territory which they occupied, these troops would then be starting out in a position that already violates the movement restriction.  I think using the China rules just for how/where you can place your infantry is sufficient, and treat movement as normal for simplicity.

[Flashman]

My rule is that all factories are destroyed once captured, and that no new factories can be built.

The aim, therefore, is no so much the capture of capitals, but the destruction of the enemy’s ability to fight a modern industrial war.

So:

No new factories.

All captured factories are removed; captor gets 10 IPCs as asset stripping bonus.

A nation keeps its money, still collects income and can build new units as long as it has a remaining factory.

If a nation loses it’s last factory it can no longer collect or build, however
if one of its original factory tts is “liberated”, it can collect income but build only infantry for the rest of the game.

The historical example is France: after Paris was liberated France contributed considerable infantry divisions, but these were equipped with British and American supplies. It was simply not economical to reconstruct French war production facilities.

In essence, there are no “capitals” as such; its about keeping the core industrial areas functioning.

[WILD BILL]

I agree with your long standing position on Factories Flash, and it is a very practical way of playing IMO. I don’t think that’s what their looking for though.

The concept of giving IPCs for an IC sounds pretty good, but could bankrupt a power like Russia that generally is force to give up such territories (they have 3 minors that generally fall to the axis). Italy is also forced into a predicament of sacrificing N Italy (Major IC) to hold on to its capital. If they also had to give up even 10 IPCs for losing control of the N Italy Major production center they might as well pack it in. Keep in mind that it does get down graded (not that Italy could build that many units if on the hot seat LOL)

If you were going to do a capture IC gain IPCs though I would have a set amount for a minor/major, then maybe a bonus amount if it is also a capital. I wouldn’t want to have to start counting adjacent territories etc….

I would be in favor of setting a limit on IPCs surrendered to the conquer if a capital is taken. Maybe a straight 20 IPCs or so. Allow that power to keep any additional IPCs saying they smuggled out part of the treasury before things went south. If that power still has factories available then they can continue to collect income and produce units from them. No IC on the board then they work like China and only produce inf until they recover an IC (or can buy one?)

Another way would be let it be more random using dice.

Lose minor roll 1 dice, enemy collect that amount
Lose Major roll 2 dice, enemy collect sum
If it is also a capital you roll two more bonus dice
So minor capital rolls 3 dice, major capital rolls 4 dice, enemy collects sum (you keep the rest if any)

Here’s a different approach that might be be cool and keep the dice rolling. If you loose your capital you roll 2 dice, the sum is what you managed to smuggle out, the rest is turned over to the enemy (min 2 ipc, max of 12 ipc).

I also think there should be a scorched earth policy BTW, if you lose an IC.

minor IC roll 1 dice (place that many damage markers)
major IC roll 2 dice (sum is amount of damage)