The Fortunes of War deck (formally Delta)

[Young Grasshopper]

Here is an R&D / Advantage system that will give nations a chance to gain a technology / super weapon during their turn.

Here’s how it works…

During their collect income phase, each eligible nation may draw a card from the top of the “Fortunes of War” deck, if that card’s national symbol belongs to the nation drawing the card, that nation immediately gains that advantage. wether a nation is successful or not, the FOW deck must always be shuffled before the following nation draws the next card. There are 2 cards in the deck for each strategic advantage, and 3 for each strategic advantage listed under “All Eligible Nations”.

STRATEGIC ADVANTAGES

Here are the available strategic advantage cards for each nation:

GERMANY:

Enigma
German submarine units now attack at 3 or less, and receive 3 dice each when disrupting convoys.

Blitzkrieg
Each German mechanized infantry unit may now blitz alone, and transport an artillery unit up to 2 spaces during their combat movement, or non-combat movement phase.

Dora
Germany may bombard an enemy territory or hostile sea zone during each combat round @3 or less, provided the battle contains at least 1 German unit, and is adjacent to a German controlled territory in Europe.

V-Rockets
Germany may launch a rocket attack from each operational airbase under German control, towards an enemy facility up to 4 spaces away. Germany rolls 1 die per rocket causing that amount of damage to the targeted facility +1, provided it can survive all SBR defences (interceptors and built in AA guns).

Soviet Union

Tankograd
All Russian ICs now have a non-combat movement value of 1, and may now produce tanks for 1 IPC less.

Russian ICs that have made a non combat movement may still build units during their place new units phase. Also, Russian ICs must be fully operational in order to move, and two ICs may never occupy one territory at the same time.

Trans-Siberian Railway (void with loss of capital city)
Any number of Russian infantry units, artillery units, and/or AA artillery units may now move from Russia to Novosibirsk, Timguska, Yenisey, or Yakut S.S.R within a single non-combat movement, provided the line to their destination is not broken, the destination is under Russian control, and the movement originated from Moscow.

R5 - Japan

Long Lance Torpedos
All hits from attacking Japanese destroyers must be applied to enemy capital ships first.

Tokyo Express
Japanese destroyers may transport one infantry unit each provided they are offloaded on to Japanese controlled Islands. Also, all Japanese infantry units on Islands now defend @3 or less.

Banzai Attack
For the 1st combat round only, all Japanese Infantry units attack @2 or less, and @3 or less when supported by artillery (mechanized infantry units non applicable).

Super Submarines
Japanese Submarines perform as normal, however, they may now carry 1 fighter each (all aircraft carrier rules apply, however, tactical bombers may not be used, and super submarines do not block enemy naval movements).

United States

War Bonds Campaign (void with loss of capital city)
America now rolls 2 dice every round during their collect income phase, and may collect that amount in additional IPCs +1.

Uncle Sam Campaign (void with loss of capital city)
America now receives 3 free infantry units every turn during their place new units phase.

Super Fortresses
When American strategic bombers attack (weather in a battle or SBR), they now receive 2 dice each and the attacker may select the best result. Also, American strategic bombers now hit at 2 or less when defending against interceptors, and are now immune to built in AA guns during SBRs.

Essex Class Carriers
All American aircraft carriers now have an attack value @2, and their maximum capacity has now increased to 3 air units.

United Kingdom

Around the Clock Bombing
All British strategic bombers departing from an operational airbase may now conduct SBRs on America’s turn as well as their own. Also all American strategic bombers departing from an operational airbase may now conduct SBRs on Britain’s turn as well as their own.

Commonwealth

Commonwealth Aid
All units (except infantry) produced by original minor ICs in Canada, and Sydney (as well as South Africa if playing option #2) are now 1 IPC cheaper (compounded if the Commonwealth has the Modernized Shipyards advantage).

All Eligible Nations

Airborne Assault Troops
Up to 2 infantry units from a friendly operational airbase may attack an enemy territory up to 3 spaces away, provided that territory is also being attacked by land units coming from an adjacent territory, or sea zone.

Airborne Assault troops may not retreat once deployed, or be supported by artillery units during the resolve combat phase. The territory under attack must contain at least 1 enemy land unit, and the attacking force must have air superiority (meaning they must have equal to, or more air units attacking than the enemy has defending).

Long Range Aircraft
The movement value of all air units has now increased by 1.

Radar (void with the loss of both London and Calcutta)
All British interceptors, AA artillery units, and built in AA guns now defend @2 or less. Also, operational airbases may now scramble up to 4 fighters to defend adjacent sea zones.

Modernized Shipyards (void with loss of capital city)
Sea units are now cheaper to build:

Battleship = $17
Aircraft Carrier = $13
Cruiser = $9
Destroyer = $7
Transport = $6
Submarine = $5

Espionage (void with loss of capital city)
Once drawn, this card will allow that nation to draw again and immediately gain that advantage.

PROGRESSIVE ADVANTAGES

During their collect income phase, all eligible nations will make a progress roll using 1 die. when a nation reaches a total of 25 progress points, their designated “Progressive Advantage” will immediately become available (or effective). To track this progress, players shall place their progressive advantage card face up on the table, and than stack chips on it in the amount of progress points achieved throughout the game rounds. Nations may not make progressive rolls during turns in which their capital is under enemy control.

The progressive advantages “Russian Winter”, “Manhattan Project”, “Flying Tigers”, “Diplomacy”, and “Kamikaze Honor” are advantages that have a special one time effect, therefore, they will become effective again if the Soviet Union, United States, China, United Kingdom, and Japan can reach 25 progress points a second time (progress points gained from one roll exceeding 25 will carry over and count towards the next 25).

Here are the Progressive Advantages available, and the eligible nations assigned to them:

Germany

Jet Fighters
All German fighters now attack at 4 or less, they also intercept and escort @2 or less.

Soviet Union

Russian Winter
Russia rolls 2 dice, and Germany must remove from original Russian territories that many infantry units +1.

Japan

Kamikaze Honor
All Kamikaze tokens are reloaded to 6, and now hit @3 or less. Also, Japan may now use kamikazes to attack in designated kamikaze sea zones as well as defend.

United States

Manhattan Project
America chooses an enemy capital and may then roll 3 dice to damage the IC, 2 dice to remove IPCs, and 1 dice to destroy units on that territory (enemy chooses which casualties to remove).

China

Flying Tigers
China will receive one free fighter during their next place new units phase, but only if they control at least 1 of their original territories.

United Kingdom

Diplomacy
The United Kingdom may declare that 1 strict neutral territory of their choice, is now a pro-Allied nation.

France

Viva La France (control of Paris is not required to gain this advantage)
During each place new units phase, France may build 2 free infantry units on any original French territory or territories they still control, or original French territory or territories occupied by their Allies.

[Young Grasshopper]

The house rule document above is very raw at this point, there are many things that will be refined and edited over time.

[Black_Elk]

I know this may not be the direction you were looking to go with this, but I would strongly suggest that you come up with 52, so that this concept could be used with a standard deck of cards. Because that would be the coup de grace! :-D

A deck that is available in nearly every home. Or I guess if you split buy suit color you could do red and black (which is the system I am trying to work out lately). Which means that players wouldn’t have to actually purchase (or somehow create) a deck of specialized cards for it to work.

Basically the way to do this is to attach some sort of R&D to particular cards by number/suit, and then attach those same card values to a particular nation. You could conceivably still do this with an uneven number of advantages (by nation) or with a weird number of total nations like say 9 or 8, instead 4, if you split the numbers from the face cards.

I’m very interested in ways that a standard deck could be used with Axis and Allies games and this seems like an interesting concept you have here with the fortunes of war. Working out a standard deck would not preclude a custom deck (with specific art and specific rules printed on them), but it might also help to organize such a deck if it was created.  The only necessity would be to have the card backs uniform by design, so the player wouldn’t know beforehand what they were likely to draw or be able to shuffle or cut the deck to their side’s advantage.

I can imagine with 8 or 9 nations (corresponding to set card values), and with about as many rounds in a typical A&A game, the statistical likelihood of drawing a card that you could actually use would be pretty slight. You might draw cards for the entire game and never hit a match. This regardless of how many individual card values you had attached to any given nation.

But by working out the values on a standard deck first, you might be able to come up with a scheme that allows greater probabilities for a given nation to draw a useful card, one that actually matched R&D for their nation.

That would be my first suggestion for refinement,  but so far I like what I’m hearing! :-D

What would be particularly glorious is to find several ways to use a standard deck.  In the mod thread for Halifax I outlined a possible income bonus scheme. If you could come up with a way to get an R&D system up and running for a standard deck then we’d have two game phases in which a standard deck might be used! We could even come up with one for the combat phase, if there is an interest.

Consider this with the standard 52…
A) research and development deck
B) combat deck
C) collect income deck

This could use the same deck of 52, or three different decks of 52. Since standard decks are very easy and cheap to acquire. Again this wouldn’t preclude designing custom decks with original art, it would simply give player a way to play at any place that sells standard cards (which is everywhere hehe.)

For collect income, this was the system I came up with… It uses the traditional deck plus jokers.  :-D

Standard Playing Card randomization.

Take a standard deck of 52 playing cards, separate into 2 piles.
Axis: Spades, Clubs, joker
Allies: Hearts, Diamonds, joker

For each round in which a Nation captures a territory they will draw 1 card from the pile belonging to their side. The numerical value of the card is awarded in IPCs begining with the Deuce up to the Ten Jack=11, Queen =12, King =13, Ace =15, Joker =20 ipcs

Perhaps if we could find a R&D fortunes of War way to use the a standard deck, then players could combine different randomization options in their games depending on which type of game phase they wanted to affect.

If we could somehow get an R&D/Advantage, a Combat advantage, and a Collect income advantage attached to each card value in the standard 52 deck, it could have a huge potential applications in all sorts of A&A games.

[Black_Elk]

ps. Oh also! What if it was like this…?

Any round you take a territory, you may draw a card.
This card may be used one of three ways:

A) As an R&D advantage (Must match the card values assigned to the nation which drew the card to be used!)
B) As a Combat advantage (Providing some specific unit combat advantage based on the value assigned to the specific card)
C) As an Income advantage (Providing the base value assigned to the specific card.)

The player must use an advantage in one of these three phases, or discard, before they can draw another. Once the card is used it is returned to the bottom of the pile (the same card cannot be used in multiple phases. You have to choose, R&D or Combat or Income. Each round the deck is reshuffled and cut, which allows for discarded advantages to re-enter play the following round. If a player holds a card and their capital is captured, this card is awarded to the conqueror.

This would provide a mechanism whereby, even if you didn’t hit the “match” for your nation in the R&D phase, you might still use the card in combat, or for income. Has some other nice effects too, since it makes every draw potentially significant in some way, even if not the major significance of an R&D advance. The cards could conceivably be saved, but only one by player at a time, either to deny the enemy a key tech or to use at some point in the game when the combat or income advantage is particularly helpful.) Would encourage fighting over worthless territories, in order to get a card.

So say for example that the Ace of Spades in the standard 52 deck corresponded to the “Rocket” advance for Germany. Ace of Spades might also make all Fighters hit at +1 attack for a single round. Ace of Spades provides +15 IPCs at collect income (under my scheme). So Germany would have 3 choices. In this situation (if Germany draws the card) then they could either get Rockets (obviously!) or perhaps use one of the other phase advantages instead, if there was some strong strategic opportunity with their fighters. Or maybe, if they really needed the money to make some specific build they could save it for the income bonus. That would be for Germany. But if Japan or Russia or Britain or America drew the card they might still get a cool combat advantage, or the chance to collect the cash. Even if they can’t get Rockets with the card. Does that make sense? So in the example of the Ace of Spades, it can be used in one (and only one) of 3 ways… A) R&D, B) Combat, or C) Income. Basically…

Ace of Spades German draw
A) Rockets (Germany)
B) Fighters +1 attack for the round
C) +15 ipcs

Now thats just for Germany and as a potential example, if the Americans drew the card, they would not have the assigned R&D advance for this card. But they could still use it for the Combat or Income advantage. So…

Ace of Spades American Draw
A) Not Available
B) Fighters +1 attack for the round
C) +15 ipcs

So here the Ace of Spades would still be a good draw, even if it wasn’t Germany that drew it. The same might go for the Ace of Hearts, just with a different Nation attached. USA for example.

Basically do something like that for all 52 cards, and you’d have a system that could do triple duty. Which would be rad :-D

Then you could print a real deck of 52, with the art design and the specific rules as well as the Numbers/Suites. So you could even use your A&A deck for some other card game if you wanted. Like poker or blackjack. It could be a universal A&A deck!

[RJL518]

i really like black elk’s idea.  my proposal is that the deck gives a special advantages and help in battles maybe and purchasing units only…

i think the R&D phase OOB is just fine the way it is…

but if u draw a 2 of clubs for germany…and u roll a die…and the die comes up a 4…which on that card for germany is Erwin Rommel…tanks and mechanized infantry can blitz through TWO hostile territories…and the mech inf does NOT need a tank to blitz…

or something like that…and BTW…credit goes to Danny boy for the idea of Rommel…

what do you think elk?  because if you use the cards for R&D…that completely takes away that rule OOB…idk…just MHO…

but on the whole Black Elk…i think those cards could be useful for SOLITAIRE play…

since i play the board game solitaire…i might put together a good set of advantages…

have to hand it to you Elk,  you are pretty darn smart!!

and you Young Grasshopper,  the sky is the limit!!!  Yo Da MAN!!

[Black_Elk]

Thanks dude. I think one of the advantages of a full deck of 52 is that you could use it in different ways depending on your preference. I suggested 3 ways a standard deck might be used, but there could conceivably be even more ways to use such a deck, those are just the options that jumped out at me. As to the R&D I think the logic for a new system is two fold. The first and most significant is that different Nations were developing different technologies during the war, and not all nations had access to the same potential for advances. The second reason to explore a different R&D system, is that global uses an older “lose the cash if you lose the roll” approach to tech,  as opposed to AA50 which had the tokens and the ability to save the dice.  So g40 got rid of the progressive aspect to tech, which some players miss.

Just using Rockets and Jets as an example… The Germans were decades ahead of the Americans in developing these techs, with mad science and an entire economy subordinated to armaments production for a good 3 years, put them well ahead of the Allies in those areas. The kind of Rocket and Jet technology which the United States, Britain, and Russia were able to develop by war’s end, came in large part from exploiting captured German science. In the case of the Americans this was done during the final year of the war in Europe and immediately afterwards under “Operation Paperclip.” It would have been inconceivable for the United States (let alone a smaller country like Italy or Anzac) to develop Rockets or Jets before the Germans did. We could use similar examples about Radar, or the ABC weapons (atomic and biochem) which the game doesn’t model but which were also significant. Some of the production advances available to America and Russia, likewise seem a bit out of place when you put them in the context of an area on fire, like Europe late in the war. One of the novel things about attaching such advances to a draw, is that you could still get them into the game, but without totally distorting the rest of the gameplay, in the way a “mad roll” for tech can. This would be just a more casual and progressive and somewhat more limited way to handle technology. The combat and income bonuses when combined with these would also provide an incentive to play things out absent technology if desired, as many people would see the advantage in combat or income as preferable to a given tech. A card system like the one I suggested would allow for more flexibility, since players would have a choice how to use their card.

In YGs system there is a kind of National aspect to the R&D. I like the idea, I just think it would be cool to develop it with a standard deck of 52 so everyone could use it.

Also, as an aside with respect to technology… One cool aspect with a random draw is that you could say “Once an R&D card is activated by its Nation and returned to the pile, it can then be drawn and used for R&D by any other power, the next time it comes up.” So in the example I provided above, say Germany hit the Ace of Spades and activated their rockets returning the card to the pile. Then if another Nation drew this ace again, they could also activate the tech. The logic being that the technology was the science was exploited or reverse engineered captured stolen or “shared” (in the case of an ally on the same side.)

Another cool thing about such a tech game, a randomized game on the draw, is that you also wouldn’t be pouring a lot of money into R&D each round, just hoping for a breakthrough. Likewise the same techs and bonuses wouldn’t come up in every game.  Instead it would be a luck of the draw type situation, which could help to correct particular game imbalances by insuring that each game was entirely unique. This is the main benefit I see to a card system. A way to take the game out of a set balance by sides, and instead make it more about managing and playing out the game conditions on the ground. That makes the gameplay more enjoyable overall for people, or at least for people like me.
:-D

[Black_Elk]

Ps. Another advantage to using a standard deck of 52 with the three options (R&D, Combat, or Income) is that the National R&D assignments for a given card could be ignored in a game which did not include that nation. So there is a way you could have the same deck work in multiple games. So for example, the “face” cards in the deck would be best for the Major nations. Germany, Russia, Japan, UK,  USA, whereas the lower value cards might carry R&D or similar bonuses for the smaller nations like Italy, Anzac/Commonwealth,  France and China.

What I in vision is essentially a “master list” that anyone could print out and combine with any standard deck on any board. A one page list that is like a code key for the way the 52 cards work.

I would suggest a name like “Enigma” or “Navajo” as a working title for this list.  :-D

Here is an example of what I mean by National R&D attached to specific cards. We could do more than this, but for an example, let’s say you wanted to give the 6 major powers four R&D advances each…

Germany: Ace, King, Queen, 10 of Spades
USA: Ace, King, Queen, 10 of Hearts
Japan: Ace, King, Queen, 10 of Clubs
UK: Ace, King, Queen, 10 of Diamonds

Russia: Red Jacks and Nines
Italy: Black Jacks and Nines

If you want limited R&D advances for the smaller powers you could say something like…

Commonwealth: Red 8s (crazy 8s!)
France: Red 7s
China: Red 6s

The color and suit, face and number would serve as mnemonic devices for each Nation, so they will know what to watch for on the draw. The Soviets will be on hunt for Red Jacks or Nines, the Italians will be on the hunt for the Black ones. The other major nations will all be looking for Aces, Kings, Queens and Tens in their suit. Likewise the smaller nations, only have to worry about drawing their designated number in the right color. Depending on how many advances you wanted to support, you could create a mnemonic system for each so that its easy to recall, and smooth for the game flow.

Basically you could divide up the deck in whichever way seems the most apt by Nation/Side and then record those R&D values for the cards in the master list. Each card already has an assigned Income bonus. Combat and R&D bonuses however could be limited if desired to just certain cards. Or in certain suits. See what I mean? Ideally there would be a rough division by side, in terms of the the potential advances or bonuses on the table. To keep things more or less even on the draw.

Also, even if you wanted to preserve the current tech system instead of trying new R&D designations, you could just assign a certain number of “free dice” to that tech advance for a given card/nation. So in that case, you wouldn’t have to adopt the new G40 tech system necessarily, since a set number of free tech rolls for a given face card. Say 6 free rolls. That option could easily be handled on the list. But I am still interested in a progressive system, and the idea of cards on a random draw seems interesting.

[Black_Elk]

pps. Finally, and this is the last thought I’ll bring up for the 52 card idea, at least for tonight  :-D but…
A 52 cards standard deck, with a hidden draw!

That’s very important. No cards should be revealed until they are turned in. They stay on the table face down, until used. Or at least only a fellow ally may share information with you about what card they have. This way we introduce the one element that has been rather missing from A&A…

Secrecy!  :-D

The cards give us a way to make the war unpredictable, so you can’t just plan everything based on the pieces and money in plain sight on the board. Right now all strategy is transparent. Everyone knows what everyone else has at their disposal, and where everything is at all times. Not so if we give our players cards! Here you always have to keep in the back of your mind “what if the enemy has an ace up his sleeve?!” haha

And so finally, at last, A&A would have a fog of war or secrecy of war component, that has been sorely lacking up until now.

Cards can give us all that. But they need to be accessible I think. A standard deck of 52 would be the ideal to work with as it is internationally available anywhere that card games are played. Again, this would still allow us to print a deck with custom art or rules, so long as it also included on it the standard Suits, Faces, Numbers etc. Any extraneous information there could just be used or ignored, depending on what kind of game you want. But at least with a master list we’d have an option to do it all.

Again I do like the name Navajo or Anasazi when the allies are drawing, and Enigma when the axis draw haha. I think it could be fun. The card income bump works and I can already attest to the entertainment value it produces, but combined with a Combat or R&D option, I think the role of cards would be improved immeasurably! It would be a complete new way to play on the standard boards, bringing back the element of Secrecy into the war plans.

[Der Kuenstler]

Hey YG - I like a lot of your ideas - here’s where I’d adjust:

@Young:

Germany may launch a rocket attack from each operational airbase under German control, towards an enemy facility up to 4 spaces away. Germany rolls 1 die per rocket causing that amount of damage to the targeted facility +1, provided it can survive all SBR defences (interceptors and built in AA guns).

4 sounds like way too far of a range for V-1s - I’d say 3 max.

@Young:

Trans-Siberian Railway (void with loss of capital city)
Any number of Russian infantry units, artillery units, and/or AA artillery units may now move from Russia to Novosibirsk, Timguska, Yenisey, or Yakut S.S.R within a single non-combat movement, provided the line to their destination is not broken, the destination is under Russian control, and the movement originated from Moscow.

This railway was only a single track, so equipment could only go one direction or the other. It was not that effective. In my rules the RR can carry up to 2 transport loads worth per turn, but loads cannot crisscross each other.

@Young:

Uncle Sam Campaign (void with loss of capital city)
America now receives 3 free infantry units every turn during their place new units phase.

This sounds more like something for Russia or China with their bottomless infantry reserves.

@Young:

Around the Clock Bombing
All British strategic bombers departing from an operational airbase may now conduct SBRs on America’s turn as well as their own. Also all American strategic bombers departing from an operational airbase may now conduct SBRs on Britain’s turn as well as their own.

This messes with the timeline of the game - don’t care for it.

@Young:

Russian Winter
Russia rolls 2 dice, and Germany must remove from original Russian territories that many infantry units +1. .

Here Russia magically controls the weather - I would like to see some kind of weather in the game but Russia should not be able to just call in a storm.

I like all of your other ideas - good work!

[CWO Marc]

@Der:

@Young:

Trans-Siberian Railway (void with loss of capital city)
Any number of Russian infantry units, artillery units, and/or AA artillery units may now move from Russia to Novosibirsk, Timguska, Yenisey, or Yakut S.S.R within a single non-combat movement, provided the line to their destination is not broken, the destination is under Russian control, and the movement originated from Moscow.

This railway was only a single track, so equipment could only go one direction or the other. It was not that effective. In my rules the RR can carry up to 2 transport loads worth per turn, but loads cannot crisscross each other.

Railways aren’t a subject I know a lot about, but I was under the impression that many of the world’s railroads have single-track sections.  Having trains travel in both directions doesn’t always require 100% dual tracks for the whole length; it suffices to have an adequate number of parallel-track sidings at various points along the line where one train can wait temporarily to let a train from the opposite direction pass it.  Obviously this wouldn’t work well on lines with a high volume of traffic, and it also requires good timetable coordination, but across a vast territory with a low population density (as in the case of the TSR) it’s a cost-efficient layout.

Incidentally, I once read an interesting item about the way in which the USSR used its railroads during the frantic days of 1941 when it was trying to relocate its factories to the Urals area.  To get the most possible cargo carrying work out of its railroads in the shortest amount of time, the trains didn’t always travel all the way from west to east.  Instead, they’d travel part of the way – far enough to be temporarily safe from the advancing Germans – then dump their shipments (for pickup at a later date) into the fields next to the tracks and head back westward for another load.

[Black_Elk]

Well I haven’t commented on the individual fortunes or advances, mainly because I like the ones already proposed, and because I can see how those could be open to adjustment or refinement. For me the main concern is implementation, how the deck actually works.

The entire advantage of creating a deck of cards system would be to have a secret draw, e.g. cards face down, with only the one player aware of what card he possesses (rather than everyone). Otherwise you’re only getting half the mileage out of the card system, and no real secrecy component if the draw is visible to everyone.

Under the current formulation the “progressive” advantages don’t seem to benefit much from being printed on an actual playing card. Since the draw on that isn’t random, and the progressive aspect takes place in the open, and the focus there is on dice rather than cards. The way it reads right now, a progressive advantage card is just a shrunk down page from the rule book, written on a card for easy reference, but without actually offering the unique gameplay potential of a card in a deck. The way its worded these are still attached to dice rolls, rather than card draws, in terms of how they play. So I think these should be separated out from the rest of the discussion, or at least put aside while you figure out how to work the normal R&D.

I’d think the priority would be getting the total number of advantages figured out first. Right now you have 16 National advances listed, and 5 more for “All eligible nations”, that’s only 21 cards in a draw, which is not really a sufficient level of randomization.

Just focusing on the National advances for the moment, the distribution by side is somewhat uneven. Some nations have 4 cards, some have 1, some Nations aren’t included at all. I would suggest 4 or 5 for each “major player nation” at a minimum, so the spread would be roughly doable on a draw. There are 7 major player nations (if you exclude France and China) so at 4 potential advances each that’d be 28 cards, at 5 potential advances 35 cards. That’s a little closer to a full deck on the draw. You could still have generic advantage cards, like the ones you have in the “all eligible nations” section.

I would still suggest finding a way to do this with 52 cards, otherwise I think you will be hard pressed to find people willing to try it, if they have to first purchase new game materials to get it working.

The wording and values of the individual advances could be updated or altered fairly easily, for historical significance or gameplay balance, but I guess the question I would have is…
Does the 52 card idea seem workable to you YG?

If not I’ll stop hijacking your thread :)

But here is the issue as I see it. The original Delta you created doesn’t actually require cards to function, a player might just as easily print out the Delta advantages on a sheet of paper and use them without the actual cards. But if there is a random draw component then this is no longer the case, as actual cards are required for that to work.

Then the question is, do you want to make the purchase of game materials a requirement for the system to work? Because I think if you did it matching a 52 card deck, then players wouldn’t have to purchase seperate materials to use or test the system, which would increase the likelihood of players trying it out. You could still print a custom deck of 52 for sale, but by creating a “card key” based on a standard deck of 52 you give players the option to try it immediately. All they’d have to do is print out the key, rather than an entire separate deck of cards. Does that make sense?

[CWO Marc]

@Black_Elk:

Then the question is, do you want to make the purchase of game materials a requirement for the system to work? Because I think if you did it matching a 52 card deck, then players wouldn’t have to purchase seperate materials to use or test the system, which would increase the likelihood of players trying it out. You could still print a custom deck of 52 for sale, but by creating a “card key” based on a standard deck of 52 you give players the option to try it immediately. All they’d have to do is print out the key, rather than an entire separate deck of cards. Does that make sense?

Unless I’m misunderstanding something, it doesn’t have to be an either/or situation.  If people want to purchase YG’s custom-made cards, they can do so.  If people want to use your standard playing card idea, they can take YG’s list of concepts from this post and create a conversation-key table that equates each concept with a card from a standard deck.  One system doesn’t preclude the other.

[Black_Elk]

Exactly, but it would be significantly easier to create the latter system if the former had a similar structure/design from the outset. By that I mean a relatively simple way to translate the custom deck into something you could play with a standard deck.

I suppose the point I was hoping to make is that it depends on the extent to which the draw mechanic itself works in the custom deck. So for example, I think it’s possible to structure things in such a way that they port with a standard deck fairly simply, and another way to structure things that would make such a porting more difficult.

I’m basing some assumptions here off the first edition Delta deck that I’m holding in my hands right now. My guess is that YG has plans to update this, and has also expressed a desire to make a master deck with all g40 NOs. Now a G40 deck like that is necessarily limited in the way it can be used (eg only for g40), there what you have is basically rules on cards for easy reference, but just going with Delta first ed deck for right now and the idea about attaching a draw to it…

In that first ed Delta deck, there are three colors for the card backings, red green and blue. So the way I read the first post in this thread, the idea would basically be to take one of those 3 color sets and give it a random draw aspect . Basically if you draw the card and it matches your nation you are awarded the R&D advance (while retaining seperate “face up” cards for the progressives with an associated roll mechanic.) There’s nothing wrong with that  approach at all, but it might make for a more narrow draw in terms of a playable deck, since there would really only be one way it could be used, one way to play with it.

Right now it is conceivable that you could take any card in the Delta first ed deck, just say it equals something in a standard deck, and then remove any extraneous cards from the standard deck (basically playing with an incomplete standard deck), but that process is a bit involved.

The only reason I brought any of this up, was that idea YG mentioned to do a random draw at the top of the post. The random draw is a new idea introduced here for the first time and not present in the first draft of Delta. Before that, the deck itself was basically an aesthetic thing, an enhanced gameplay aid, but not necessarily required for the rules to work. But once you put in a draw, then the actual cards (and not just the rules printed on them) become significant to the system.

My logic would be, if you want a random draw for this stuff, why not take it all the way, and just make a full system for cards? Because I think cards are cool,  but the thing that makes cards cool and unique, is the hidden aspect.  The backs of the cards in a standard deck reveal nothing about what’s on the face, so this would be a way to get a kind of “fog of war” albeit highly abstract into the core game.

But you’re right, the one definitely doesn’t preclude the other.

[CWO Marc]

@Black_Elk:

Exactly, but it would be significantly easier to create the latter system if the former had a similar structure/design from the outset. By that I mean a relatively simple way to translate the custom deck into something you could play with a standard deck.

I think I now understand what you’re driving at.  I thought at first that you wanted YG to produce an “official” adaptation of his Fortunes of War card system that allowed his various national advantages to be used with a standard playing card deck rather than with his custom cards.  It now actually looks like you’re talking about something quite different.  You’re not proposing that a playing card deck be adapted (via a coding sheet) to fit YG’s existing Fortunes of War system; what you’re actually proposing is the reverse: that YG adapt his Fortunes of War system to fit the existing format of a standard playing card deck.  That’s a pretty fundamental change, and the fact that YG hasn’t commented on your proposal since you posted it a week ago seems to suggest (to me at least) that he has reservations about it.  To expand on my earlier suggestion that you create your own coding sheet, perhaps you might also want to go one step further and create your own customized Fortunes system which fits your preferences better than seems to be the case with YG’s system. There’s nothing to prevent you from doing that.

[Young Grasshopper]

Sorry for my absence here, I’m working on many different things at once.

My plan is to create a deck with 54 cards…

• 2 of each nation specific strategic advantage cards = 32
• 3 of each community specific strategic advantage cards = 15
• 1 of each nation specific progressive advantage cards = 7

If all this can be easily translated into a generic playing card deck, than all is good… However, my custom cards look much better than a regular deck.

Thanks for all the comments and interest in this idea, I will address all your post’s in detail soon.

Cheers.

[Black_Elk]

You’re correct CWO marc, that was more or less exactly what I was suggesting.  :-D But its just a suggestion.

I find that a collaborative approach is generally stronger, than trying to strike off and develop a bunch of independent competing systems that are trying to achieve similar goals. House rules likewise are more fun when you get a couple houses trying the same thing to see how it plays out.  Forums communication is slow sometimes, since we have lives outside of A&A, but I’d trust YG to pull in the reigns, or excise the extraneous, if I’ve gone too far left field.

The main reason I think it’s cool to try and attach values to the standard deck, is that it’s very easy to tweak and test the advantages this way. So from a development standpoint, it is possible to test things right away before we plug in values and set the deck. Rather than drafting rules first and sending it out to the printers in China, only to find a week or two later, that it would be awesome to add something or tweak some aspect of it.

@Young:

Sorry for my absence here, I’m working on many different things at once.

My plan is to create a deck with 54 cards…

• 2 of each nation specific strategic advantage cards = 32
• 3 of each community specific strategic advantage cards = 15
• 1 of each nation specific progressive advantage cards = 7

If all this can be easily translated into a generic playing card deck, than all is good… However, my custom cards look much better than a regular deck.

Thanks for all the comments and interest in this idea, I will address all your post’s in detail soon.

Cheers.

Oh cool there’s the man! So with a 54 card deck planned that matches exactly a full deck including jokers! I expect also that the printers print with those numbers in mind for their boxing. This is a strong start because it means you’d have the same number of total fortunes cards as you have in a normal deck.

So picture this, to achieve a specific 1:1 card to card ratio, all you’d have to do is flag the joker… (You mark it with a felt pen on the face side.) Now you have 54 distinct cards, and you could match every card in your fortunes deck to a card in the flagged standard deck (both jokers in play.)

Now consider that all you would need at that point, to make the fortunes deck a standard deck (a deck that could function just like a real deck as well as a fortunes deck), is to include one small graphic in just one corner of the card!

It could be very small, and doesn’t need to be mirrored (not on two sides,  head and foot, just at one or the other.) Tiny as you like.

Envision a small K inside a Heart, or an A inside a spade, a 10 inside a diamond,  or a 2 inside a club. All small and tucked off to the lower right hand corner of the card.

These symbols would look badass anyway, like tiny war code designations!  :-D The sort of thing one might paint on the side of a bomber, or draft up in a patch. It could look cool and unassuming, but provide addition functionality, while retaining the overall aesthetic cohesiveness of a WW2 era Fortunes Deck. It could even provide a shorthand reference for the individual cards.

Manhattan Project = Suicide King, K inside the Diamond
Or things of that sort. For each card

You know like code hehe

It wouldn’t dominate the card aesthetically, it only needs to be large enough that it can be read by the player holding the card. This doesn’t seem like too tall an order, considering that this one minor addition of suit/number info, would expand the potential use of the deck considerably.

Think of all the things you could do with a standard deck of cards, one that had cool art and cool R&D bonus rules. It just seems fairly easy, so I thought I would make the case. Not only could you use it for R&D, but you could do R&D and anything else you can create with a full deck of playing cards. It just seems like an easy win on all counts.

And it would make testing the fortunes pretty easy.

There are only two conditions you need to meet for this to hold up in translation.

First: Uniform backs
If the backs of the cards in the fortune deck are not uniform,  then the fortunes deck could not function as a normal deck (even if they all have suits/numbers). However, a normal deck could still have the fortunes values translated onto it in that case. Going one direction fortunes translates to standard (but not the other way round unless the backs are uniform.)

Second: Each card is distinct.
No two cards in the fortunes deck are exactly alike. (Unless you want just 2, in which case you could use unflagged jokers.) This would make translation pretty simple. We could start playing with it tonight if wanted :)
Again you could translate one direction, but not the other unless all cards are distinct.

Anyhow, these are just suggestions, but I think it could be cool. I like the first edition Delta deck a lot. I’d play black jack with it or crazy 8s or poker, if I could!