Nation- (and City-) Specific Victory City Markers

[CWO Marc]

The wattage of the VC bulbs (he used LEDs, I think) is no doubt very small, but the illuminated markers could probably be photographed in a dramatic way with a camera that has manual exposure control: wait for night-time, light up the markers, turn off all the lights in the room, open the camera shutter, expose the markers for a few seconds to have the glow register nicely, fire off a flash to expose the map board itself, then close the shutter.  It might take a few experimental tries to get it right, but the result would be impressive!

[CWO Marc]

Ossel’s markers are shaping up so spectacularly that I’m thinking it would be a shame for some of the victory cities to end up with markers which are simply molded versions of the A&A roundels (as he mentioned might be the case).  I’ve therefore expanded and refined the suggestions which have already been made, and I’ve found some pictures to illustrate these different concepts.  In some cases I have definite favourites, but in others I couldn’t make up my mind which options I preferred.  Here are the results of my analysis.  Because of the two-pictures-per-post limit, I’ll broken the information into several pieces.  Comments are welcome, and of course Ossel – since this is his project – will ultimately get to decide what options he’ll use for each VC.

The cities which have been completed and posted by Ossel so far are:

Berlin (Brandenburg Gate)

London (Big Ben + Parliament Buildings)

Paris (Eiffel Tower)

Rome (Colosseum)

Washington (Capitol Building + Washington Monument)

The following cities have not been completed yet, but (like the five previous ones) they have iconic and easy-to-recognize structures associated with them:

Moscow
Marker suggestion: Kremlin and/or St. Basil’s Cathedral

Ottawa
Marker suggestion: Parliament Centre Block + Peace Tower

San Francisco
Marker suggestion: San Francisco Bay + Golden Gate Bridge

[CWO Marc]

Now we get to the cities which are more problematic, starting with Cairo and Honolulu.  For Cairo, I think the Giza Necropolis would be the best choice.  It’s not located in Cairo itself, but it’s only 25 km away and it’s iconically Egyptian.

For Honolulu, Ossel had originally proposed a little Pearl Harbor and I had later proposed the Aloha Tower.  Ossel noted that the Aloha Tower might not be recognizable, which is a good point in view of the small scale of the planned markers.  Given the precedent of using San Francisco Bay and the Golden Gate Bridge to represent San Francisco Bay (in other words, a large structure set in a landscape rather than amongst a ring of small buildings), Ossel’s original suggestion would fit nicely along the same lines – so I’d be happy with a marker showing Ford Island, Battleship Row, and some of the surrounding landscape.

[CWO Marc]

As far as Russia goes, Moscow has already been handled and Leningrad looks as if it it would be served nicely by the Winter Palace.  Stalingrad, however, is a problem.  In the 1940s, the city wasn’t known for its outstanding architecture: to the south was the oldest part of town (log huts and wooden buildings), in the centre was the modern city (concrete and steel structures), and to the north were three large factories with nearby housing for the workers.  None of those components sounds very exciting to me.  Nobel Hobo suggested using the Old Mill, also known as the Grain Elevator which was the site of epic resistance by a small group of Russian soldiers in 1942, so that might be one possibility…but as a building representing a whole city, it might look a little odd compared to the more monumental markers that have already been discussed.  The heroic statue “The Motherland Calls” was a suggestion of mine that I still quite like, but I’ve also pointed out that it was a postwar memorial to the Battle of Stalingrad and hence would be anachronistic.  One statue that might do the job nicely is the Barmaley Fountain (showing six children dancing in a circle), of which there are 1943-vintage photos and film footage showing it among the devastated buildings of the city.  Continuing with the statue idea, another possibility would be “Worker and Kolkhoz Woman”, a classic example of socialist realism.  It was created for the 1937 Paris World’s Fair, and it looks very Soviet.  Unfortunately, it has the opposite problem of “The Motherland Calls”: right time period but wrong city (it was moved to Moscow after the World’s Fair).  On the other hand, it incorporates the hammer and sickle – something which ties in nicely with the USSR game roundel.  So this is one of the cities for which I can’t really decide what I’d like best.

[CWO Marc]

For the three VCs located in the Far East (Tokyo, Shanghai and Hong Kong), I looked at the marker suggestions which have been made and I noted that some of them include pagoda-type structures.  I checked into the subject a bit, and it seems that pagodas are found in the architecture of many Asian countries (including China and Japan).  Experts can probably tell the difference between the various national styles, but I certainly can’t.  Since torii gates (the suggestion I’d made for Tokyo) are distinctly Japanese, it seems to me that picking a torii for Japan (which needs only one marker) would enable pagoda-like structures to be used exclusively for China (which needs two markers).  So for Tokyo I’d recommend using the Meiji Shrine in Tokyo (dedicated to the Emperor who ended the Tokugawa Shogunate and brought Japan into the modern world), which has a torii gate decorated with the imperial chrysanthemum seal.

[CWO Marc]

As for Shanghai and Hong Kong, Nobel Hobo suggested using the Yu Garden and the Wong Tai Sin Temple respectively.  The Main Altar of the Wong Tai Sin Temple would be a good choice, in my opinion, for Hong Kong.  I’d then opt for a Yu Garden building that looks distinctively different from the Hong Kong marker – so for Shanghai, I’d pick the Yu Garden’s Dianchun Hall, which is built in a different style from the Main Altar and has a stream and a nice little bridge beside it.

[CWO Marc]

For Sydney, Nobel Hobo proposed using the Sydney Harbour Bridge, an idea which would be along the lines of using the Golden Gate Bridge for San Francisco.  The two bridges are very different in appearance, which is good, and the Sydney one opened in 1932, so that fits with the required WWII time frame.

For Calcutta, Nobel Hobo proposed using Victoria Memorial Hall.  Ossell commented that not a lot of people would recognize it; I concur with this point, and I would add that the building doesn’t look particularly Indian.  (It was designed by an Englishman and its style apparently “uses a mixture of British and Mughal elements as well as Venetian, Egyptian, Deccani and Islamic architectural influences”.)  I had earlier proposed the Taj Mahal as a possibility, but I had also pointed out that it was in the wrong city.  As it turns out, it has the additional problem of being an example of Islamic rather than Indian architecture.  So my preference would be for the Dakshineswar Kali Temple, a Hindu temple located near Kolkata. Admittedly it doesn’t score a lot of points on the recognizability scale, but it has the virtue of being built in a traditional style of Bengal architecture.

[CWO Marc]

For Manila, Nobel Hobo proposed using the Jose Rizal Monument.  That would be one possibility, and so would the Intramuros citadel district of Manila – more specifically, Fort Santiago.  Another option might by to use Corregidor Island, which is just 30 or so miles away, has a fairly distinctive saddle shape and is, of course, famous in WWII history.

For Warsaw, Nobel Hobo proposed using the Wilanów Palace, which would be one possibility.  Other options would be: 1) the Old Town Market Place with the Warsaw Mermaid statue at its centre; 2) the Warsaw Barbican; or 3) one of Warsaw’s many churches, for example the Carmelite Church, a.k.a. the Church of the Assumption of the Virgin Mary and of St. Joseph, which appears to have a small onion dome that gives it a nice Slavic architectural touch.

[John Brown]

@CWO:

Now we get to the cities which are more problematic, starting with Cairo and Honolulu.  For Cairo, I think the Giza Necropolis would be the best choice.  It’s not located in Cairo itself, but it’s only 25 km away and it’s iconically Egyptian.

For Honolulu, Ossel had originally proposed a little Pearl Harbor and I had later proposed the Aloha Tower.  Ossel noted that the Aloha Tower might not be recognizable, which is a good point in view of the small scale of the planned markers.  Given the precedent of using San Francisco Bay and the Golden Gate Bridge to represent San Francisco Bay (in other words, a large structure set in a landscape rather than amongst a ring of small buildings), Ossel’s original suggestion would fit nicely along the same lines – so I’d be happy with a marker showing Ford Island, Battleship Row, and some of the surrounding landscape.

I agree with these two as the symbols for Cairo and Honolulu. Everyone recognizes the pyramids and as far as Honolulu, I guess Ford Island would be as good as any. The only other thing I can think of in Hawaii, is the volcanoes, which could be cool.

[John Brown]

@CWO:

As far as Russia goes, Moscow has already been handled and Leningrad looks as if it it would be served nicely by the Winter Palace.  Stalingrad, however, is a problem.  In the 1940s, the city wasn’t known for its outstanding architecture: to the south was the oldest part of town (log huts and wooden buildings), in the centre was the modern city (concrete and steel structures), and to the north were three large factories with nearby housing for the workers.  None of those components sounds very exciting to me.  Nobel Hobo suggested using the Old Mill, also known as the Grain Elevator which was the site of epic resistance by a small group of Russian soldiers in 1942, so that might be one possibility…but as a building representing a whole city, it might look a little odd compared to the more monumental markers that have already been discussed.  The heroic statue “The Motherland Calls” was a suggestion of mine that I still quite like, but I’ve also pointed out that it was a postwar memorial to the Battle of Stalingrad and hence would be anachronistic.  One statue that might do the job nicely is the Barmaley Fountain (showing six children dancing in a circle), of which there are 1943-vintage photos and film footage showing it among the devastated buildings of the city.  Continuing with the statue idea, another possibility would be “Worker and Kolkhoz Woman”, a classic example of socialist realism.  It was created for the 1937 Paris World’s Fair, and it looks very Soviet.  Unfortunately, it has the opposite problem of “The Motherland Calls”: right time period but wrong city (it was moved to Moscow after the World’s Fair).  On the other hand, it incorporates the hammer and sickle – something which ties in nicely with the USSR game roundel.  So this is one of the cities for which I can’t really decide what I’d like best.

Either one of the last two statues would be the best bet, I would think.

[John Brown]

@CWO:

For the three VCs located in the Far East (Tokyo, Shanghai and Hong Kong), I looked at the marker suggestions which have been made and I noted that some of them include pagoda-type structures.  I checked into the subject a bit, and it seems that pagodas are found in the architecture of many Asian countries (including China and Japan).  Experts can probably tell the difference between the various national styles, but I certainly can’t.  Since torii gates (the suggestion I’d made for Tokyo) are distinctly Japanese, it seems to me that picking a torii for Japan (which needs only one marker) would enable pagoda-like structures to be used exclusively for China (which needs two markers).  So for Tokyo I’d recommend using the Meiji Shrine in Tokyo (dedicated to the Emperor who ended the Tokugawa Shogunate and brought Japan into the modern world), which has a torii gate decorated with the imperial chrysanthemum seal.Â

This would be good for the time period and for its architecture.

[John Brown]

@CWO:

As for Shanghai and Hong Kong, Nobel Hobo suggested using the Yu Garden and the Wong Tai Sin Temple respectively.  The Main Altar of the Wong Tai Sin Temple would be a good choice, in my opinion, for Hong Kong.  I’d then opt for a Yu Garden building that looks distinctively different from the Hong Kong marker – so for Shanghai, I’d pick the Yu Garden’s Dianchun Hall, which is built in a different style from the Main Altar and has a stream and a nice little bridge beside it.

These are both good choices.

[John Brown]

@CWO:

For Sydney, Nobel Hobo proposed using the Sydney Harbour Bridge, an idea which would be along the lines of using the Golden Gate Bridge for San Francisco.  The two bridges are very different in appearance, which is good, and the Sydney one opened in 1932, so that fits with the required WWII time frame.

For Calcutta, Nobel Hobo proposed using Victoria Memorial Hall.  Ossell commented that not a lot of people would recognize it; I concur with this point, and I would add that the building doesn’t look particularly Indian.  (It was designed by an Englishman and its style apparently “uses a mixture of British and Mughal elements as well as Venetian, Egyptian, Deccani and Islamic architectural influences”.)   I had earlier proposed the Taj Mahal as a possibility, but I had also pointed out that it was in the wrong city.  As it turns out, it has the additional problem of being an example of Islamic rather than Indian architecture.  So my preference would be for the Dakshineswar Kali Temple, a Hindu temple located near Kolkata. Admittedly it doesn’t score a lot of points on the recognizability scale, but it has the virtue of being built in a traditional style of Bengal architecture.

These are fine. I wouldn’t change a thing here.

[John Brown]

@CWO:

For Manila, Nobel Hobo proposed using the Jose Rizal Monument.  That would be one possibility, and so would the Intramuros citadel district of Manila – more specifically, Fort Santiago.  Another option might by to use Corregidor Island, which is just 30 or so miles away, has a fairly distinctive saddle shape and is, of course, famous in WWII history.

For Warsaw, Nobel Hobo proposed using the Wilanów Palace, which would be one possibility.  Other options would be: 1) the Old Town Market Place with the Warsaw Mermaid statue at its centre; 2) the Warsaw Barbican; or 3) one of Warsaw’s many churches, for example the Carmelite Church, a.k.a. the Church of the Assumption of the Virgin Mary and of St. Joseph, which appears to have a small onion dome that gives it a nice Slavic architectural touch.

I don’t have an answer for Manila. That one is hard. As far as Warsaw, I like the top picture or the far right one of the Church.

[ossel]

WOW! :-o

A lot of great research here! You’ve certainly saved me a lot of work.

First of all, I’d like to say that I agree with you on not doing the generic molded roundel versions (although that may be an alternative, possibly lower cost option that I can offer later). I feel like if you’re going to spend the money on the markers, they might as well be unique.

A couple of comments:

Stalingrad - I’d like to stick to buildings if possible, for two reasons.

1. Comparative scales: the other markers are buildings, so I think the smaller statues might seem out of place.
2. Organic shapes (i.e. people) are much harder to model in my program than structural shapes.
   What about a distinctive building like the “Univermag Department Store” building that the Germans used as an HQ during the battle (see attached)? I seem to remember something like this in “Enemy at the Gates”.

I suppose I can give the statues a stab, we’ll see.

Honolulu - I had a cool idea for this one, maybe modeling the whole southern coast of Oahu, complete with Diamond Head on one side, a little Waikiki Beach with downtown Honolulu, and the outline of Pearl Harbor on the other side. I’ll have to see if I can fit it all, but I think it would be cool.

Tokyo - I might end up doing something like D.C., with Edo Castle on one side and the Meiji Shrine on the other. Again, I’ll have to see how it looks. I like the capital markers to be a bit more stately and impressive.

Other than that, I loved all you guys’ suggestions. I’ll keep working on these next week.

Coming up…
MOSCOW!

[jwo1984]

Ossel,

This is such a exciting, cool idea and I love your prototypes thus far!  I just have to ask, cause i’m too excited to paint these and get them into a gaming experience,……any rough idea as too when you might produce/ offer these for sale?? In the mean time I’ve been waiting forever for HBG to release their Japanese expansion, brits, axis minor, uncle sam, and French concept sets!!

[CWO Marc]

Thanks for the feedback everyone.  Here are a few additional thoughts.

Regarding Ossel’s point about comparative scales, which is a good one, this would indeed rule out the small Barmaley Fountain for Stalingrad , but not the “Worker and Kolkhoz Woman” statue (which is 78 feet high) nor “The Motherland Calls” (which, at 279 feet, is taller than the Statue of Liberty if you exclude the latter’s large pedestal).

As for the program’s limitations at handling organic shapes, this is indeed a difficulty – but here I’d say that, personally, I’d be fine with a model that suggests in broad outline (rather than in fine detail) the shape of a statue whose appearance is sufficiently distinctive.  The model which Ossel has already produced of the Eiffel Tower illustrates this point: the depiction is very simple compared to the original, yet it’s perfectly recognizable.  So on that count, “The Motherland Calls” would win over “Worker and Kolkhoz Woman” because its recognizability and “Sovietness” is less dependent on fine detail, relying instead on its colossal scale and its dramatic pose.  The more I think about it, the more I’d be inclined to pick “The Motherland Calls” for these reasons and for the following additional one:  “Worker and Kolkhoz Woman” has one wrong element (wrong city) and one right element (correct time period), while “The Motherland Calls” has one wrong element (wrong time period) and two right elements (correct city, and direct association with the Battle of Stalingrad).

However, if Ossel were for whatever reason to decide to use a building to represent Stalingrad, I agree that the Univermag Department Store would probably work better than any of the building options I can think of.  (I can’t get very excited at the prospect of a marker modeled after, let’s say, the “F.E. Dzerzhinskogo Stalingrad Tractor Factory Number 3”, and Pavlov’s House was architecturally just a small and nondescript building.)

Ossel’s suggestion of using the Edo Castle (containing the Tokyo Imperial Palace) raises an interesting point: the markers which have already been designed, or whose choices seem to be attracting a consensus, can be grouped into different categories. Some focus on a single structure (such as the Eiffel Tower, the Brandenburg Gate and the Colosseum).  Some show a large urban area dominated by one or two distinctive adjoining structures (such as Washington, which shows the Capitol Building and the Washington Monument).  And some are projected to show an even larger landscape: San Francisco Bay and the Golden Gate Bridge (for San Francisco),  Diamond Head, Waikiki Beach, Honolulu and Pearl Harbor (for Honolulu).  The grounds of the Tokyo Imperial Palace (see picture below) would fall into the large-landscape category. (Incidentally, incorporating the Edo Castle on one side and the Meiji Shrine on the other side of the same model would be problematic because they’re in two different districts of Tokyo – Chiyoda and Shibuya.  On that scale, the buildings would be too small to see.)  The same large-landscape concept could be applied to Manila by depicting the walled Intramuros district (see picture below).  And in fact the same concept could even be applied to Stalingrad, whose layout was fairly distinctive: a city built in three major sections on hilly bluffs on the west side of a bend in the river Volga.

[John Brown]

Mark, I agree with everyone, that you have done a incredible job researching for Ossel, for some fantastic possibilities for sculpts. Manila is the only one that has given me trouble. I can’t decide what I want for it.

[CWO Marc]

@John:

Manila is the only one that has given me trouble. I can’t decide what I want for it.

Another possibility would be the J-shaped Cavite Navy Yard (and perhaps the surrounding Manila Bay), located just 8 miles from Manila.

[John Brown]

@CWO:

@John:

  Manila is the only one that has given me trouble. I can’t decide what I want for it.

Another possibility would be the J-shaped Cavite Navy Yard (and perhaps the surrounding Manila Bay), located just 8 miles from Manila.

I don’t know, I think your first two choices were better options.

Which one do you like the best?