Japan too strong in AA Revised?

[Guest]

OK folks, I am a long time Classic A&A player who just received Revised for Christmas.  Set up once and started playing to examine some of the changes.  And to be honest, anyone who thinks that the Axis is still underpowered needs their freakin head examined!

Germany is tough, and up to the challenge of facing UK and Russia together.  US aid, while massive due to increased US IPC’s is now even slower to arrive, so a few quick strikes by Germany and it is all over.  Germany can still take out the UK fleet in G1, etc. to allow them to focus on Russia.

But Japan… Holy cow!  Did they overpower THAT nation or what???

Japan was always a “dark horse” in classic… initially very weak economically, but quickly building in strength by grabbing territory in Asia.  So in revised they put Japan on steroids, and counted on a few new UK pieces, mostly navy, to counter.

And it just is not enough.

On my first test of my traditional Japan strategies in the new game, Japan undid ALL of the increases in Allied power in Asia, and was poised to play havoc with UK and Russia.  The UK navy in the Indian Ocean was toast; I executed Pearl, and still landed troops to take China and Bury HEAVY.  With their build, Japan had poised 2 new trannies both with artillery and INF to land to maintian the assault on the mainland, and had all of their original trannies available along with a lot of AF and 2 BB’s for support shots.

Maybe if UK had an IC in India at the start it might be more balanced, but as established, Japan is going to continue to be the winner of the game for the Axis UNLESS the US basically ignores Germany and goes 100% into the Pacific; and that poses a LOT of trouble or the UK and Russia.

Hell by J2, I would already have “minor” victory conditions with Calcutta and Leningrad (which fell to Germany easilly in G1).

With THREE significant fleets to start, Japan is simply too strong; and the US simply too far away from everything, to avoid the Axis from getting to an economic position the Allies will never recover from.

Would love to hear comments on this… but from an old school Japan player, I have to tell ya… Japan is not going to be countered by anything less than a full scale US onslaught, and even then it is going to be touch and go for the Allies for a LONG time.

[trihero]

And to be honest, anyone who thinks that the Axis is still underpowered needs their freakin head examined!

I agree with this statement. I have not seen conclusive evidence that the Allies still have a clear upper hand. But I wouldn’t say that the Axis has the clear upper hand either.

On my first test of my traditional Japan strategies in the new game, Japan undid ALL of the increases in Allied power in Asia, and was poised to play havoc with UK and Russia.  The UK navy in the Indian Ocean was toast; I executed Pearl, and still landed troops to take China and Bury HEAVY.  With their build, Japan had poised 2 new trannies both with artillery and INF to land to maintian the assault on the mainland, and had all of their original trannies available along with a lot of AF and 2 BB’s for support shots.

Looks like you need to sit back and take a good look at what the allies can do. First, if you want to build and keep an Indian complex, it is imperative that you send Russian infantry to help hold it. Second, it sounds like you’re not using the Indian ocean navy correctly in the least. It is not there to help you defend; it is there to help you attack. Sink the Kwangtung transport with the destroyer + transport + carrier. No, it’s not going to survive a counterattack but there’s a decent chance it will take down a fighter if you inflict 2 hits, and you need to sink that transport to slow Japan down a bit. Third, what did you do with the Indian fighter? It can be sent against the Solomon Islands sub (along with the Australian sub), and you have a good chance of sinking that sub before it submerges (2/3 chance). Then that fighter lands on the hawaiin carrier.

Uh oh, Pearl Harbor suddenly isn’t so weak. If you examine the setup closely, Pearl Harbor can be counterattacked by 1 trans, 1 battleship, 2 fighters, and 1 bomber from eastern US. If Japan sends a force of 1 dest + 1 battleship + 2 fighters + 1 carrier + 1 bomber (remember the sub is dead usually), the remaining force will be a fully loaded carrier + 1 battleship. If you do the math, the US counterattack will destroy this force 65% of the time (with the battleship intact) and will tie another 7% of the time.

Japan’s navy may be strong, but it is easy to inflict losses on it early if Japan is careless.

Also where do you plan to deploy those transports you build? I hope not in sz60, because it can be hit by the hawaiin fighter and the east US bomber who will both land in buryatia. And the Uk can send their bomber to sinkiang on the first round, thereby threatening transports in the inner seazone of Japan. You will be forced to buy a suboptimal defensive piece to protect your transports from the threat or hold back some of your navy at the beginning.

On my first test of my traditional Japan strategies in the new game, Japan undid ALL of the increases in Allied power in Asia, and was poised to play havoc with UK and Russia.

Wait so how is this different than classic? The problem is that Japan has to apply a strong enough force in sufficient time to free Germany from all 3 allied powers. It takes a fair amount of time for infantry/artillery to walk from the coastal zones to Moscow, and it takes a fair amount of land grabbing to support enough tanks to matter.

Hell by J2, I would already have “minor” victory conditions with Calcutta and Leningrad (which fell to Germany easilly in G1).

How do plan to hold Leningrad vs all 3 allied powers? How do you mean to achieve the 9th/10th victory city? A minor victory means nothing and is never used in serious play. Victory cities mean nothing, really.

Japan is not going to be countered by anything less than a full scale US onslaught, and even then it is going to be touch and go for the Allies for a LONG time.

You seem to have a very distorted view of the game. So you think that a half-assed attempt by 1 complex from the UK should stall the Japan player indefinitely? Of course it’s going to require good effort the US to stop Japan from expanding. It’s the only country that can produce enough close enough to Japan to make a dent in the navy and threaten the islands.

Of course the Axis is overwhelming in the first few rounds. But you will find that Japan takes a considerable amount of time to properly threaten the Russian capital, and that in the same amount of time Germany will likely have been thrown out of Africa and down perhaps 10 IPCs or so (2 from africa, 3 from norway, 2 from west russia, 3 from ukraine). It is a race to who kills whose capital first. And Russia can still be reinforced by the Allies with fighters and timely shipping if Japan is growing large.

The Japanese navy is big, but ultimately it is useless in threatening Russia since you can’t bombard the capital.

US aid, while massive due to increased US IPC’s is now even slower to arrive, so a few quick strikes by Germany and it is all over.  Germany can still take out the UK fleet in G1, etc. to allow them to focus on Russia.

I suggest increasing your Allied skill then. It’s impossible for Germany to apply enough pressure to kill Russia on his own in a “few quick strikes” unless the Russian and UK player are doing nothing while waiting for the US. Germany has a hard time balancing defense on the western coast and the baltic navy, as well as goin offensive against Russia in which the distance has widened considerably.

to avoid the Axis from getting to an economic position the Allies will never recover from.

It’s like you think the Allies can’t get IPCs elsewhere. They’re going to jack a lot of IPCs away from Germany to compensate for Japan’s landgrabs. Not to mention that Japan’s invasions are very spread out; you can take 4 from the US, 4 from Russia, 4 from UK…while it adds up well, it is not that devastating to any individual power while they’re landing troops and harrassing Germany from so many angles.

[Guest]

@trihero:

Also where do you plan to deploy those transports you build? I hope not in sz60, because it can be hit by the hawaiin fighter and the east US bomber who will both land in buryatia.

Bury was in control of Japan after J1.  No US forces landing there.

@trihero:

You seem to have a very distorted view of the game. So you think that a half-assed attempt by 1 complex from the UK should stall the Japan player indefinitely?

I am saying that if the game provided for an IC at START for UK in India, it would be a better fight.  Without one at start, UK can;t build in India before UK2, and in that case, what is the point?  Japan will OWN India before that IC can be used.

Also, Russia is a little hard pressed to send aid to India to start.  They would have to send tanks from Caucuses, or their aircraft to get  there by J1, and I think Germany is going to be a bit of a nuisance in terms of Russia weakening Caucuses early on… unless they want to lose that factory.

@trihero:

The Japanese navy is big, but ultimately it is useless in threatening Russia since you can’t bombard the capital.

No, but it does a hell of a job of making sure that Japan forces make it to the continent, protect those trannies, and of course taking money away from UK.

@trihero:

I suggest increasing your Allied skill then. It’s impossible for Germany to apply enough pressure to kill Russia on his own in a “few quick strikes” unless the Russian and UK player are doing nothing while waiting for the US. Germany has a hard time balancing defense on the western coast and the baltic navy, as well as goin offensive against Russia in which the distance has widened considerably.

And you have never played where you were able to keep UK off the continent a few rounds by judicious use of navy and air force?  Based on what I see of the Revised board, Germany can now get at least 3 rounds clear of Allied incursions wihtout too much difficulty.  And I am sorry, but 24 IPC’s against 40 IPC’s… I considered it a German advantage in the old game, but with the extra $ and the extra starting units…

@trihero:

It’s like you think the Allies can’t get IPCs elsewhere. They’re going to jack a lot of IPCs away from Germany to compensate for Japan’s landgrabs. Not to mention that Japan’s invasions are very spread out; you can take 4 from the US, 4 from Russia, 4 from UK…while it adds up well, it is not that devastating to any individual power while they’re landing troops and harrassing Germany from so many angles.

What?  And Germany can;t build INF in the new version?  Can’t destroy the UK fleet twice?  Can’t post enough forces to secure their territory while also pressing into Russia?  THose Russian offensive forces get depleted rather quickly…  not long before you are down to just INF against German tanks, AF, Artillery and INF, especially if you are running troops to India or Sinkiang to help the UK or US.

Again, I am still getting my feet wet here, but this is looking like an Axis slaughter, if played well.

[ezto]

The best way to counter Japan is by attacking it. Russia turn one: Move all Infantry from Yakutsk and Far to Bry. Move the Eve infantry to Novo, the Novo to Sinkiang and the Kazak to Persia. Do what you have to do in the West, but Keep your Fighters in Caucus. UK turn one: Build an IC in India. attack Borneo with your Z35 transport with 2 Infantry (Borneo = 4 IPCS!!!). Attack New Guinnea with the Transport from Australia with 2 infantry also. Attack the Lonely Japanese Sub with Your Sub and The fighter from Z35. Land the fighter on US Aircraft Carrier. Attack the japanese transport off of Kwa with your destroyer and aircraft carrier. move your Infantry from Persia into India, and the Trans infantry to Persia, but the anti-a from india to Persia. Land your bomber from Great britain (if or if not attacked Z5) the nearest to Japan it can (Novo) Spend your other 15 Ipc’s making Germany think twice about attacking Russia. US turn one: Buy IC and place it on Sinkiang. Spend the rest on Naval units on the Japanese front. If pearl was left alone, then unite your navy on the west coast. If Pearl was destroyed, counter with all you fighters and the West coast fleet (battleship and transport). Bring all fighters to Los Angeles and the bomber to Alaska. Place your purchases on west coast. Try to land on africa (if unnable alnd on brazil and see from there).
Now you should have Japan worried on all fronts. Stalemate on Sinkinag. Counterattack by Russia in India, if Japan attacks. Large army at Brytulia, ready to sweep down and unite with its Allied counterparts (or maybe just to slow Japan down). Japan cannot build transports, because of the two bombers (unless they provide protection from another big ship). Japan is worried about its navy now, since the US navy is growing. Japan cannot build IC’s in the mainland because of the strong russian presence (rememebr the fighters + infantry). If this is done, Japan is in BIG trouble. Germany is a problem now, and it should be held by US precense in Africa, The combined Ipc’s of the East British spenditures and Russia. This stratergy puts Japan in chaos. Only the best axis players, with tehir combined strength can overcome that.
Keep in mind this is only turn one…

[Guest]

A few problems with that move…

First, it sends a lot of Russia’s available land forces away from Germany.  That by itself is not a critical issue.  But combined with other elements, it could be deadly to the Axis.

The second element, and what makes the Russian force shift deadly is that UK is comitting it’s resources to build an India IC on UK1.  May not sound too dreadful, but UK happens to be sitting there without a fleet in the Atlantic on UK1 if Germany played well at all.  Committing 15 of 30 IPC’s to India on UK 1 means that UK will not be rebuilding their fleet in UK1.  No UK fleet means Germany can focus exclusively on Russia in G2.  And I am sorry but if you give Germany 2 full rounds of uncontested time to focus on Russia, 40 IPC’s against 24… Germany could TANK build at the same rate that Russia INF builds if it wanted to.  And even though Russia goes first, by G3, Russia has built only 72 IPC’s worth of units (give or take a few) while Germany has 80 IPC’s worth of USABLE builds already on the board, plus their initial superiority of units, to fall on Russia while STILL having their G3 build to prepare for defense against UK/US landings, or to set up the last wave to crush Russia.

Not to mention that even with a strong UK strike against Japan in UK1, Japan simply has too much fleet and too much AF for the UK forces to live past J1.  They may have a few straglers around, but their main forces are TOAST, especially if you gather them together at Borneo where I can hit them with a consolidated blast from my East Indies forces.  And I still have the Caroline fleet and the Japan fleet for use at Pearl to spank down the US in the Pacific.

I may not be landing a large number of land forces on J1 (perhaps just 1 tranny’s worth in Manchuria) but my figs have to land somewhere, and I still have my initial forces to strike into China.

Add in a J1 tranny build with INF and Artillery to land in J2, then start flowing tanks onto the contient in J3 and… well that 3 unit IC in India is going to be mine in short order, especially if Germany was concentrating on blasting at Caucuses which would encourage Russia and the other allies to pull forces back there for defense.

[trihero]

Bury was in control of Japan after J1.  No US forces landing there.

Consolidate 6 infantry in buryatia. So again I ask  you, where do you deploy your naked transports?

I am saying that if the game provided for an IC at START for UK in India, it would be a better fight.  Without one at start, UK can;t build in India before UK2, and in that case, what is the point?  Japan will OWN India before that IC can be used.

How does Japan own the IC before the UK can use it? Do you attack the IC on J1? I’m always able to reinforce the complex with 5 Russian infantry on R2. I don’t see how you could attack India on J1 and still do China/Pearl/kill UK fleet/buryatia. I think it would help us discuss this if you fully elaborate on the exact movement of your troops on J1.

Not to mention that even with a strong UK strike against Japan in UK1, Japan simply has too much fleet and too much AF for the UK forces to live past J1.  They may have a few straglers around, but their main forces are TOAST, especially if you gather them together at Borneo where I can hit them with a consolidated blast from my East Indies forces.  And I still have the Caroline fleet and the Japan fleet for use at Pearl to spank down the US in the Pacific.

Uh…so what did you expect the fleet to do exactly? Overwhelm the Japanese? Why would you want it that way? If you really wanted to consolidate your navy, you should move the Indian/Australian fleet to that seazone two spaces off the left coast of Australia.

The one thing you’ve stumbled across is that a complex in India is not worth it usually in a KGF strategy. That is a pretty broadly felt opinion. I usually use the Indian transport to go attack Anglo-Egypt with some infantry + fighter/bomber to retake it and stop the Germans from expanding in Africa.

The second element, and what makes the Russian force shift deadly is that UK is comitting it’s resources to build an India IC on UK1.  May not sound too dreadful, but UK happens to be sitting there without a fleet in the Atlantic on UK1 if Germany played well at all.  Committing 15 of 30 IPC’s to India on UK 1 means that UK will not be rebuilding their fleet in UK1.  No UK fleet means Germany can focus exclusively on Russia in G2.  And I am sorry but if you give Germany 2 full rounds of uncontested time to focus on Russia, 40 IPC’s against 24… Germany could TANK build at the same rate that Russia INF builds if it wanted to.

I think you actually need to try these strategies out. On UK2 I drop 3 inf + 2 tank + 1 art in Algeria. On US2 I drop 4 inf 3 tank 1 art in Algeria (there’s also 2 carriers + 3 fighters + 2 destroyers guarding this fleet). Can Germany afford to ignore the fact that Western and Southern Europe are both being threatened by a pretty sizeable force? Germany doesn’t start with very sizeable defenses on the west coast, even with all the fighters landing there. You need to build a lot of infantry, which a full tank build doesn’t allow.The full tank build that you built on G2 are suddenly going to be put in defensive positions. Germany does not nearly have 3 full rounds of free time; he will be forced to consider that his western europe and perhaps more are being threatened with forces he doesn’t have defenses for since he’s according to your strategy sending all his troops eastward.

Add in a J1 tranny build with INF and Artillery to land in J2, then start flowing tanks onto the contient in J3 and

Oh I encourage you, try this! It’s not that fast. The best you do is like 3 inf 3 tanks per turn? The infantry are extremely slow in getting anywhere; it takes FOUR turns to get to moscow from the coastline. Like I said of course India is toast but wasn’t this the same in classic?

I think you severely underestimate what the Allies can do, and overestimate what they should be able to do. Revised gives the Japanese a better chacne at cracking Moscow at roughly the same time that the Allies crack Germany, but I seriously doubt that you will find that the Japanese have been overpowered to the point where they will always win the Axis the game.

No, but it does a hell of a job of making sure that Japan forces make it to the continent, protect those trannies, and of course taking money away from UK.

India is 3 IPCs, New Zealand is 1 IPC, and Australia is 2 IPCs. 6 IPCs isn’t a lot of money to be taken away from the UK, and the island zones take quite some time to sail out to and take, not to mention the transport(s).

The second element, and what makes the Russian force shift deadly is that UK is comitting it’s resources to build an India IC on UK1.  May not sound too dreadful, but UK happens to be sitting there without a fleet in the Atlantic on UK1 if Germany played well at all.

What exactly do you mean by this? You attack the UK’s Atlantic navy? The mediterranean navy is likely to be gone, but how do you propose to attack the Atlantic navy? The best you can  bring against it is 1 fighter + 1 bomber + 1 sub against 1 transport, 1 sub, and 1 battleship. The ratios are 50% for the defender to win, 37% for the attacker to win, and 13% chance of a tie.

[ezto]

You are too negative NC. 15-20 ipcs from Gbr landing on ARC + All of russian resources CAN stop the German attack. Japan CANNOT builod transports, for they will get vanquished by the UK, US bombers.
You cannot destroy Pearl and have room to destroy the scattered UK Navy on J1, and if you do, you will lose alot of your units. By turn 3, The united states WILL have enough Naval and ground forces to threaten your islands, if not Tokyo itself.
Germany should be slowed down on africa and russia, I never said defeated.
You have no need to build a UK navy on the atlantic. Just build a transport and ship youyr units, while joining with russian submarine.

I would give russia to germany, and take japan with the us ANY DAY, thats the point of my stratergy, otherwise knows as a modification/hybrid of KJF and Asia Wall.

[Guest]

@trihero:

How does Japan own the IC before the UK can use it? Do you attack the IC on J1? I’m always able to reinforce the complex with 5 Russian infantry on R2. I don’t see how you could attack India on J1 and still do China/Pearl/kill UK fleet/buryatia. I think it would help us discuss this if you fully elaborate on the exact movement of your troops on J1.

You drop an IC there and I will take it, even if I have to put off a move against some of the Allied navy to do it.  Making UK lose 15 IPC’s  of their UK1 build is worth it.

@trihero:

Uh…so what did you expect the fleet to do exactly? Overwhelm the Japanese? Why would you want it that way?

Just something a bit more than a suicide force for UK in the Indian Ocean would be nice.

@trihero:

Oh I encourage you, try this! It’s not that fast. The best you do is like 3 inf 3 tanks per turn? The infantry are extremely slow in getting anywhere; it takes FOUR turns to get to moscow from the coastline. Like I said of course India is toast but wasn’t this the same in classic?

What?  I routinely have 6 trannies by end of J3 in Classic, and in revised I have even more income, and higher tranny capacity.  Yes it does take 4 turns to get to Russia, taking IPC’s from Russia all the way, and pulling their forces off the German front the whole time to try to slow that advance.  Add in a few forces on a central Asia vector, and then some southern asia forces just for good measure.

You also need to realize that those “advanced” bomber forces, the ones that can reach SZ60 and SZ 61 arte vulnerable to that Japan advance.  By J3, you won’t have any allied territory in Asia where a bomber can land and reach SZ60.  And all I need is ONE capital ship to protect my trannies.  Sure, you will probably sink 1 of them, but then your bomber is gone.  Want to buy a bomber a round to send to East Asia just so I can shoot it down after it sinks 1 8 IPC tranny?

@trihero:

I think you severely underestimate what the Allies can do, and overestimate what they should be able to do. Revised gives the Japanese a better chacne at cracking Moscow at roughly the same time that the Allies crack Germany, but I seriously doubt that you will find that the Japanese have been overpowered to the point where they will always win the Axis the game.

You mean that there is no difference between Classic and Revised for Russia, eventhough now they are a 24 IPC nation sandwiched between a 40 and a 30 IPC enemy instead of 32 and 25 IPC enemies?

Fortress Europe, Japan tranny fleet with a 3 prong westward push, 3 Japan fleets to chase down and kill 1 US fleet, 1 UK fleet, and some straglers.

@trihero:

India is 3 IPCs, New Zealand is 1 IPC, and Australia is 2 IPCs. 6 IPCs isn’t a lot of money to be taken away from the UK, and the island zones take quite some time to sail out to and take, not to mention the transport(s).

No, not much money at all, only 20% of UK’s income.  Leaves them with 24 IPC’s, same as Russia.  That is 1 tranny not being filled each round.

@trihero:

What exactly do you mean by this? You attack the UK’s Atlantic navy? The mediterranean navy is likely to be gone, but how do you propose to attack the Atlantic navy? The best you can  bring against it is 1 fighter + 1 bomber + 1 sub against 1 transport, 1 sub, and 1 battleship. The ratios are 50% for the defender to win, 37% for the attacker to win, and 13% chance of a tie.

And what does the UK have left?  The BB?  How many forces can a BB carry to Europe?  UK will have their Eastern Canada tranny left in the Atlantic.  A whopping 2 units heading for Europe or Africa on UK1.  Wow.  I am crushed.  And the US fleet can get to Africa on US 1, but not Europe.  And if the US does go for Africa, there is a fair chance I might still have a Baltic sub alive after submerging off France, still have compenents of my Med navy, and of course some German Air Force, especially if US did not actually TAKE algeria (you see, I am not hell-bent on Egypt in G1 and I think G2 might be the better time for that offensive, but give me some more time to work out the numbers).

But, if I just ignore initial moves against Africa, I can still Fortress Europe, it is still US2 before I have to even THINK about US forces landing in Europe, and at least UK2 before UK can start to re-build some trannies.  And of course, once they actually start making LANDINGS in Europe, then that navy is close enough for me to hit it with all of my air force.  Again, a lot of the fleet may survive, but those trannies are likely to sink.  That means the initial landings are suicide runs, and it will take the NEXT round of tranny builds to reach the European coast en masse.

So I am back to having 3 rounds as Germany to pound on Russia without much concern for Germany, with Japan coming in from the back side.  Let’s see… 8 tanks vs. 8 INF, 3 rounds…  oops, forgot, Russia will be losing IPC’s the whole time, so make that more like 6 INF…

I may not OWN Russia by the end of T3, but I will have German and Japan forces adjacent to it.

And of course, with Russia being pressed, they are not going to be sending much in the way of forces to India or Persia.  Actually, I wish they would… fewer forces in Caucuses for Germany to kill, and fewer forces in Novo for Japan to kill.

[Guest]

Oh and I almost forgot… you have to GET those bombers within range first.  So I don;t have to think about those bombers even being in theater until J2, by which time I may well have taken their bases out before they even launch their first strike on SZ60.

Not to mention that in order to get these 2 bombers within range of SZ60 for use on T2 that BOTH bombers have to do non-comabt moves on UK1 or US1 (possible exception of US bomber counter-attacking Japan fleet if I did Pearl).  Bombers not used for offense in T1… not a good idea.  Too strong a unit to be “idle”

Oh, and the US bomber actually needs TWO turns to get to where it can reach SZ60, if Japan takes Bury and China in either J1 or J2.  Can;t reach from Hawaii or Midway.  Unless of course you take Wake, then it can reach.  But alas, even if you took Wake in US 1, the bomber can;t land there until US2, which means US 3 before you can use it against SZ60.

As little as 1 Destroyer with a 50/50 chance per round of shoointg down an encroaching bomber (plus the 16% chance for a hit per tranny) should be more than adequate to discourage use of the UK and US bombers in this manner.

But hey, sacrifice those bombers.  Another 15 IPC’s toasted…  Hell that is better than Germany buying 2 bombers to SBR UK!

What other forces would you care to serve up to the Empire of Japan on a silver platter?

[trihero]

You drop an IC there and I will take it, even if I have to put off a move against some of the Allied navy to do it.  Making UK lose 15 IPC’s  of their UK1 build is worth it.

If I’m dropping an IC there (which I already said I usually won’t), I will defend it. I’ll have 4 infantry and 1 fighter there. Your force will consist of 2 infantry + 4 fighters + 1 bomber. You will win, but at probably high cost to your fighters since you’re preserving the infantry to invade the territory. The worst problem is that you have now left the suicide UK navy to live. How in heck you’ll defend a J1 transport buy is well beyond me when you’re facing 1 dest + 1 carrier + 1 trans + 1 bomber, unless you skip Pearl Harbor. If you skipped Harbor, thanks for giving the US 34 IPC in equipment! You may have taken the complex, but you gave the US a huge boost and also extremely likely spent 2+ fighters doing it.

What?  I routinely have 6 trannies by end of J3 in Classic, and in revised I have even more income, and higher tranny capacity.  Yes it does take 4 turns to get to Russia, taking IPC’s from Russia all the way, and pulling their forces off the German front the whole time to try to slow that advance.  Add in a few forces on a central Asia vector, and then some southern asia forces just for good measure.

I really don’t think Russia will pull up troops to stop you until perhaps you’re at novosibirsk/kazakh, and usually not even then. Russia is certainly not pulling forces off Germany “the whole time” until it becomes necessary. And by then, Germany is certain in dire straits.

You also need to realize that those “advanced” bomber forces, the ones that can reach SZ60 and SZ 61 arte vulnerable to that Japan advance.  By J3, you won’t have any allied territory in Asia where a bomber can land and reach SZ60.  And all I need is ONE capital ship to protect my trannies.  Sure, you will probably sink 1 of them, but then your bomber is gone.  Want to buy a bomber a round to send to East Asia just so I can shoot it down after it sinks 1 8 IPC tranny?

I understand that. The whole point is to delay Japan for 1 turn in the beginning. I don’t expect to have allied territory in Asia by J3. I also would not attack you if you had a capital ship for protection, but isn’t that the point? I made you buy one or have one sit behind on the first turn just by threat, not even action. I don’t have to use the bomber, do I? I just made you do something suboptimal though!

You mean that there is no difference between Classic and Revised for Russia, eventhough now they are a 24 IPC nation sandwiched between a 40 and a 30 IPC enemy instead of 32 and 25 IPC enemies?

Fortress Europe, Japan tranny fleet with a 3 prong westward push, 3 Japan fleets to chase down and kill 1 US fleet, 1 UK fleet, and some straglers.

You forget that the Russian eastern rim is now worth less, so it takes more time to bite into Russia’s paycheck. And again, I really don’t think you have any experience with the timing of the game. You seem to take a massive jump to conclusions that the Japanese will always crush Russia with this slow, 3 prong attack, before Germany falls?

No, not much money at all, only 20% of UK’s income.  Leaves them with 24 IPC’s, same as Russia.  That is 1 tranny not being filled each round.

You again, forget that the UK can make money elsewhere. Take Norway, Algeria, and Libya and you’re up 5 IPCs. And you again forget that you have to use a tranny and probably 2 battleships + 2 fighters + 1 carrier to be sure you nail the australian/zealand IPCs in time to make a difference. You spend a lot of effort to make a little dent.

And what does the UK have left?  The BB?  How many forces can a BB carry to Europe?  UK will have their Eastern Canada tranny left in the Atlantic.  A whopping 2 units heading for Europe or Africa on UK1.  Wow.  I am crushed.  And the US fleet can get to Africa on US 1, but not Europe.  And if the US does go for Africa, there is a fair chance I might still have a Baltic sub alive after submerging off France, still have compenents of my Med navy, and of course some German Air Force, especially if US did not actually TAKE algeria (you see, I am not hell-bent on Egypt in G1 and I think G2 might be the better time for that offensive, but give me some more time to work out the numbers).

I don’t think you have any clue what you’re talking about yet. You have sacrificed a fighter and a bomber and a sub to take out essentially one transport which I will replace (the russian sub is a suicide unit so who cares about it?). Please, I would love to trade that! I don’t go for Africa on UK1 (and I never said I did!) because usually the Germany player lands about 4 fighters in Western Europe to deter that. I go for Africa on UK2/US2 when I’m much better prepared.

So I am back to having 3 rounds as Germany to pound on Russia without much concern for Germany, with Japan coming in from the back side.  Let’s see… 8 tanks vs. 8 INF, 3 rounds…  oops, forgot, Russia will be losing IPC’s the whole time, so make that more like 6 INF…

I don’t think you’re even looking at the gameboard, this comment is so off. At the end of turn 2 I have

UK –> 2 transports (3 quite usually since people don’t take that chance that you do with the atlantic navy) that have 2 inf 2 tank in them + 1 or more fighters

US --> 4 transports with 4 infantry + 3 tank + 1 artillery + 3 fighters + 1 bomber

All in Algeria. Which means I can strike at Western Europe and Southern Europe with my transports. Germany has had 2 full rounds of free time against Russia, but suddenly that’s the end of it. If you do not immediatley pull back the troops you built on G2 to protect southern/western europe, you’re screwed! That means you only had the first round of purchases to use freely against Russia since the second round of purchases has to fend off a third round attack.

I may not OWN Russia by the end of T3, but I will have German and Japan forces adjacent to it.

Oh please. You even agree that it takes 4 turns for the Japanese infantry to get to Russia. And you needed at least what J2 or J3 to start that flow of infantry? That’s hardly T3 when you’re close enough to threaten Russia. You may have German forces next to Russia, but they are suddenly cut off from reinforcements because Germany is forced on defense. A quick turn or so and Russia has enough forces to bounce Germany straight back.

[trihero]

Oh, and the US bomber actually needs TWO turns to get to where it can reach SZ60, if Japan takes Bury and China in either J1 or J2.  Can;t reach from Hawaii or Midway.  Unless of course you take Wake, then it can reach.  But alas, even if you took Wake in US 1, the bomber can;t land there until US2, which means US 3 before you can use it against SZ60.

You should get your facts straight. The bomber goes:

1 –> up to eastern canada
2 --> to western canada
3 --> to sz63
4 --> to sz62
5 --> attack sz60
6 --> land in buryatia

As little as 1 Destroyer with a 50/50 chance per round of shoointg down an encroaching bomber (plus the 16% chance for a hit per tranny) should be more than adequate to discourage use of the UK and US bombers in this manner.

If I force you to buy a destroyer, than I have accomplished more than I ever intended. I didn’t even have to attack, and I cost you 12 IPCs. Of course I’m not going to attack you if you built some defense, but you missed the point - I made you buy something that’s absolutely worthless to your cause just because I made a ghost threat!

I can move the UK bomber to sinkiang on UK1. I admit I don’t always do this because sometimes I’ll try to sink the Baltic fleet if it hasn’t been beefed up, but certainly it’s worth the extra logistics problems that it gives on J1 rather than strategically bombing on UK1.

[Guest]

@trihero:

I understand that. The whole point is to delay Japan for 1 turn in the beginning. I don’t expect to have allied territory in Asia by J3. I also would not attack you if you had a capital ship for protection, but isn’t that the point? I made you buy one or have one sit behind on the first turn just by threat, not even action. I don’t have to use the bomber, do I? I just made you do something suboptimal though!

Actually, no you don’t understand.  You have to stage those bombers forward for this threat to be valid.  And for UK to get it’s bomber in range, it has to do so via non-combat in UK1.  If you do that, I leave or build a capital ship in SZ60.  Otherwise, my trannies are safe, and I’ll see bombers coming at least a round ahead, and then I can counter.  So unless you give up using your bomber, I get to use all of my capital ships in J1.  Pick your poison.

@trihero:

I don’t think you’re even looking at the gameboard, this comment is so off. At the end of turn 2 I have

UK –> 2 transports (3 quite usually since people don’t take that chance that you do with the atlantic navy) that have 2 inf 2 tank in them + 1 or more fighters

US --> 4 transports with 4 infantry + 3 tank + 1 artillery + 3 fighters + 1 bomber

All in Algeria. Which means I can strike at Western Europe and Southern Europe with my transports.

No, actually it means you have those forces there DEPENDENT on those transports.  Lose the transports, and you lose the ability to even REACH Europe with those forces without either building new trannies, or fighting your way to Europe via North Africa and the Middle East.

Med fleet, plus aircraft, plus any remaining subs…  I may not kill your whole fleet, but those trannies are going to be sinking.  And all I need to do is get 3-4 of them and your amphib of Europe is HISTORY for Turn 3.  Plus your forces cannot attack TOGETHER.  That means I get to face them one at a time, meaning far fewer loses for Germany from each round of combat, meaning more Allied forces dead in yuour D-Day landing.

Also, you get those forces into Africa on UK 2 and US 2 respectively.  That means that I still get my G3 build AND attacks on you before either UK or US can move against Europe.  Tranny attack, plus some INF to guard Southern.  Your figs are only useful in Western (unless you brought an AC along) and you’ll face AA fire there (lose a fig).

And if you take it?  Then I have a 40+IPC build from G3 to kick your butt out on G4, with your fleet out of position to pick up forces for the second landing (unles you moved back into the Atlantic, taking the Southern risk away).

So what is the BEST case for you?

You take Western in either UK3 or US3.  You lose it on G4.  Meanwhile, Germany started out with force superiority in Europe, and has continued to INCREASE it during G1, G2 and G3.  Germany is outbuilding Russia by approximately 40%.  By the end of T4, the allies are kicked out of France, Japan has forces adjacent to Russia in the East, and Germany has a significant numerical suprtiority over Russia, and has probably taken Caucuses, Karelia, Archangel, and maybe Kazakh.  A G4 INF build to defend Germany against losing their capital, a strike on Russia, with a follow-up strike by Japan if needed…  Russia is out oif it.  And if not, they get to build a whole 2-3 INF to prepare for a repeat performance in T5.

Once Russia falls, then I can kick you out of Norway, solidify my position in Europe as Germany, and then prepare for Sea Lion.
Germany has had 2 full rounds of free time against Russia, but suddenly that’s the end of it. If you do not immediatley pull back the troops you built on G1 to protect southern/western europe, you’re screwed! That means you only had the first round of purchases to use freely against Russia since the second round of purchases has to fend off a third round attack.

[Guest]

@trihero:

Oh, and the US bomber actually needs TWO turns to get to where it can reach SZ60, if Japan takes Bury and China in either J1 or J2.  Can;t reach from Hawaii or Midway.  Unless of course you take Wake, then it can reach.  But alas, even if you took Wake in US 1, the bomber can;t land there until US2, which means US 3 before you can use it against SZ60.

You should get your facts straight. The bomber goes:

1 –> up to eastern canada
2 --> to western canada
3 --> to sz63
4 --> to sz62
5 --> attack sz60
6 --> land in buryatia

And I told you that I TAKE Bury in J1, using Manchuria forces, plus forces trannied in.  No place to land that bomber for US1.

@trihero:

If I force you to buy a destroyer, than I have accomplished more than I ever intended. I didn’t even have to attack, and I cost you 12 IPCs. Of course I’m not going to attack you if you built some defense, but you missed the point - I made you buy something that’s absolutely worthless to your cause just because I made a ghost threat!

And I told you that you have to WASTE that bomber doing only non-comabt moves on UK1 to get it to where it IS a threat.  And if I see that coming, I don;t have to BUILD a Destroyer, just leave some forces in place, or move some existing forces.  YOU hve to make the first move by non-combating your bomber to Sinkiang in UK1.  Otherwise, Japan has no bombers to fear (US can;t land in Bury, and UK needs a round to get close first)

And if you do move that bomber to Sinkiang in UK1, you will get to use it on me… ONCE.  Sinkiang is toast in J2.  If you reinforce it so that it survives, you are losing a lot more than Sinkiang.

But pulling that bomber out of Europe hurts you in SO MANY more ways than having Japan use one modest Capital ship to defend their trannies…  no SBR of Germany, no extra “4” for your attack on Western, no long range combat aircraft in Europe…

[trihero]

No, actually it means you have those forces there DEPENDENT on those transports.  Lose the transports, and you lose the ability to even REACH Europe with those forces without either building new trannies, or fighting your way to Europe via North Africa and the Middle East.

Ohhh man. If you’d like to trade probably most of your fighter fleet for some transports……

Let’s base this on your attack in the Atlantic where you lost 1 figher and 1 bomber and I have lost 1 transport:

Your attack is 1 battleship + 1 transport + 5 fighters (3 hits on average)

My defense is:

1 fully loaded carrier, 1 half loaded carrier, 1 battleship, 2 destroyers, and 6 transports (close to 6 hits on average).

So in the first round you lost 1 transport + all your fighters, and at this point I might not even choose to lose transports; I might just lose destroyers because I know your attack force has completely run out of gas. You’re mathematically committing suicide.

And it’s like you don’t think that the US/UK are still building this entire time. They will have more transports and equipment coming in.

[Guest]

Look, Tri, I see what you are trying to get across… that Japan has to protect it’s trannies.

But the truth is, no they don’t, not unless the Allies use major forces to go after those trannies.

In J1, I take Bury.  6 Russia INF against a Japan trannied artillery and INF, 2 INF form Manchuria, plus AF, and plus a BB if I decide to keep it handy.  This leaves me week in Bury, but with no Russia forces in SFE or Yak to take back.

I build trannies in SZ61, safe from anything except your UK bomber if you flew it in to Sinkiang on UK1.  If you did, I place my units in SZ60, allowing direct landings in Bury for the march on Russia.  That is out of range of your UK bomber, and is vulnerable only to the US bomber if it stages to Midway or Hawaii on US1.  If they do, I move my forces to SZ61 and invite your bomber to fly over my trannies and capital ship.

On J1 I can build 3 trannies plus 2 INF.  I can fill my trannies grabbing forces from Ok, Wake and Phillipines.  Or I can build 2 trannies with art and INF, leave the island forces intact to protect from remaining Allied fleet, and go from there.

As Japan, I start out with 2 BB, 2 AC’s, 1 with 1 fig, 1 with 2 figs, 2 trannies, a sub and a destroyer.

Against that, the Allies have 
UK 1 AC with 1 fig, 2 trannies, 1 Sub and 1 destroyer
US 1 AC with 1 fig, 1 tranny, 1 sub, 1 BB, 1 destroyer.

You are out-classed by Japan by 1 BB, 1 fig.  In exchange you have 1 extra tranny and an extra destroyer (in Panama) and an extra sub.

Add in Japan’s ground based AF, and the fact that the US BB, tranny and Destroyer are out of range to participate in T1 moves on Japan (unless Japan goes to Pearl) and it is obvious that Japan can toast the Allied Pacific fleet.

And I can do this while still keeping a degree of protection for my trannies that I am using for building up Asia.

The only way to prevent this is for the US to send forces into the Pacific, and to do so with some significant impetus.

THAT means that Germany will have only UK and Russia to worry about in Europe (other than some minor initial US forces).

[Guest]

@trihero:

And it’s like you don’t think that the US/UK are still building this entire time. They will have more transports and equipment coming in.

Yes, I know they are building… in UK which is 1 move away, and in the US that is TWO moves away.

All I am doing is BUYING TIME for Germany’s land forces.

If I hold you off 3 full rounds, and allow the economics of Germany v Russia to kick in, Russia is toast.

And once I get Russia, then US and UK can keep sending forces til their heart is content.  Germany will be building at mid 50’s IPC’s, Japan in the 40’s.  Allies lose.

[trihero]

And I told you that I TAKE Bury in J1, using Manchuria forces, plus forces trannied in.  No place to land that bomber for US1.

That is entirely true, but let’s take a look at the big picture.

3 inf + 1 arm isn’t going to win against 6 infantry. You have to bring in 2 fighters against a stacked Buryatia to make the battle a 60% chance for you to win. That isn’t even that good of a chance. Perhaps now you have to bring in a bomber from Japan which otherwise would have been used Pearl Harbor?

Consequently, those 2 fighters used against Buryatia had to come from somewhere. You will now be unable to take China efficiently unless you bring 2 fighters from the Indies fleet.

Now that you don’t have those 2 fighters from the east indies fleet, it is foolhardy to try kill the suicidal UK fleet sitting in Kwantung, unless you choose to use fleets otherwise needed to kill Pearl Harbor. Then Pearl Harbor survives

I think my overall point is that with a couple of maneuvers, you force Japan to make decisions that slows him down some. Your individual counters are correct but you cannot cover everything. And you still haven’t addressed how you plan to take Pearl Harbor if I sunk the solomon islands sub and landed the british fighter on the carrier, also in relation to my stacking 6 infantry in buryatia and the UK bomber in sinkiang.

[Guest]

@trihero:

And you still haven’t addressed how you plan to take Pearl Harbor if I sunk the solomon islands sub and landed the british fighter on the carrier, also in relation to my stacking 6 infantry in buryatia and the UK bomber in sinkiang.

The short answer?

In Classic I have been an advocate of NOT doing Pearl.  So the US masses it’s fleet to send against Japan.  After killing UK’s fleet I do the same.  Massive naval battle, that Japan wins being on the defensive with better fighter/carrier numbers.

US consolidtes fleet and adds to it?  No problem!  My trannies are still working overtime on Asia… 4 rounds is all I ask.

US sends fleet to Atlantic?  Great!  No threat in the Pacific then.  3 rounds til they get there, 4 to be of any use.  Russia is toast, or nearly so.  Japan turns on US, Germany starts on UK.  Economics show who wins these battles oince Russia is gone.

[trihero]

Your concept of timing is very much off. You speak with no experience in the revised verion at all; have you even completed one game? I speak with half a years of experience and many actual games played. Russia will not fall in 4 rounds, unless the Allies are the complete idiots that you make them out to be.

In Classic I have been an advocate of NOT doing Pearl.  So the US masses it’s fleet to send against Japan.  After killing UK’s fleet I do the same.  Massive naval battle, that Japan wins being on the defensive with better fighter/carrier numbers.

The US players suck if they’re running straight into you. If I’m amassing a fleet against Japan, I go down to Solomon Islands. Suddenly Japan can’t afford to play defense since 4 islands are in jeapordy - the mainland, boreno, phillippines, and east indies. If Japan defends one of them, you can be sure the US will go elsewhere and nail the IPCs from you. So Japan has to attack before the US takes islands…

I know this sounds weird, but I do not use many of the strategies that I’ve been discussing usually. I mainly talk about them to show you that Japan cannot do everything if the Allies make a few maneuvers (pearl harbor, china, india, buryatia, protect transports). One of those has to be given up. In your case, it is Pearl Harbor.

My usual Allied strategy is to completeley abandon India and Buryatia on turn one. And I still win about 50% of the time. This isn’t against idiot Japan players either; they are constantly loading troops onto the mainland and making complexes to churn out mass tanks when they reach production limits on the mainland. You just have no clue about what’s going on in the Atlantic, as your suicide against the turn 2 combined allied navy shows.

[ezto]

THE BOMBERS ARE IN RANGE TO ATTACK BY TURN TWO. IF you dontbelieve me LOOK at the board.

If you guys want to play together, use www.flames-of-europe.de download Abattlemap V0.79 and make an account. Its totally free and it comes with everything you need. Post if you have any questions.