I have lost russia turn 5 for the last 4 games in a row….

[iceage36]

So basically to make along story short here is what happens everytime…

I am russia…My strategy is all infantry for the first 4 turns and pull back all 18 troops from amur towards moscow. I bring EVERY allied fighter i can bring to defend russia
So by turn 5 russia looks like this…about 45 infantry,2 mechs,2tanks,5art,2 tacticals, 1 russian 1 england,and about 7 fighters, 1 russian,1 french,4 englands, 1 anzac… so im rolling 54 2’s…4 3’s, and 7 4’s…plus i buy 1 aa gun to have 9 shots…

My opponent builds all tanks for turns 1 and 2, turn 3 i believe 5 fighters,turn 4, 4 bombers which can hit russia from germany.
So he attacks on turn 2 and moves the whole pile together and moves east each turn and on turn 5 attacks russia with about 17 inf,22 tanks,4 mechs,6 art,like 4 tacticals,8 fighters,6 bombers…

he still takes france turn 1,yugoslavia and bulgaria rise up along with finland…

so i have around 65 units and he has about 67…he might get 1 maybe 2 aa hits and sometimes he loses a plane when he attacks british fleet, but i lose everytime turn 5 and there is nothing else i possibly can bring to defend…

round 1 i lose all my fodder and he loses half of his infantry but all of his 3’s and 4’s rolling just cant be stopped…

What would you guys do against an all out blitz on russia??? what else can i do to stop it?

thanks

[ItIsILeClerc]

Hi Iceage,

It seems to me you are loosing too much landunits prior to the German attack on Moskou.
Russia can have 85 units in Moskou by GE5 and that is without the Siberian Hunters or any units from the RAF and/or USAF.

Possible Russian mistakes I know of that lead to early losses of land units(not saying you make them, it is just in general):

• (Trying to) defend Leningrad

• Attacking Finland

• Leaving (lone) INF behind for the Germans to mop up

I also have the feeling that America/UK were not threatening Western Germany enough from Gibraltar/London if he was able to build 4STR GE4!
USA should have a minimum of 2CV+4FTR+5TRS(fully loaded) as close as possible to take West Germany if Germany rushes everything into Russia and building a measly 4/5 STR to defend Western Europe.

In my experience so far, the only thing Russia can do about such a German all out blitz is an equally all out defense:
retreat everything, loose nothing. Build INF/ART only and the occasional MECH/ARM in Stalingrad to maximize the number of bodies in Moskou. A fast unit built in Stalingrad with spare IPCs -after you produced 10 units in Moskou- will be in Moskou next turn. And fly in enough RAF (fighters/TAC) while building up your second front in Gibraltar/London.

If Germany attacks Russia GE1 or GE2, this either badly hurts the German attacks on the RN and Paris those turns, OR the Russians should be able to make a 1 or 2 turn stand somewhere before Germany reaches Moskou. This may (even) or may not include strafing their main army. This turns a GE1/GE2 DOW effectively into a GE3 DOW, giving Russia an extra turn of production. Moskou will now have 98 units minus those lost in the strafe. This is OK because Germany also lost a lot and presumably more crucial units (ART/ARM/MECH) than the Red Army (INF).

Strafing/attacking can only be done if Germany will loose at least as much units as Russia and has a hard time to counterattack afterwards (loosing expensive ARM instead of cheap INF).

If making a 1 or 2 turn stand or a strafe/attack is not possible then Russia still has 85 Red Army units in Moskou, plus everything the RAF can send in. From what I have seen this is too much for the Germans to handle.

Oh, before I forget; those 85 units include 10+ ART. Those make couterattacking an option for Russia. Once the Siberian Hunters arrive, this will be easy if the Luftwaffe is defending Western Europe from invasions. If it is defending the German armies in Russia, strafing/counterattacking with the Red Army might just be too much… but don’t despair: America/UK can wreak havoc in Western Europe in this case.
Either way, Germany should now feel the difficulty of a two-front war!

[ghr2]

Yea, if you are doing what you said you are doing, russia should have a good deal more infantry in moscow.

[knp7765]

If Germany is able to concentrate so hard on Russia, it does sound to me like the US and UK are not doing their part. In most of our games, Germany is lucky to spend about half it’s income against Russia. The rest has to be spent on holding off the Western Allies or they end up taking too much in Europe. In fact, there has been a few games where Germany ended up taking Moscow but losing Berlin.
Sometimes the UK tends to concentrate on Italy and the US spends too much going after Japan which leaves Germany a free hand against Russia. If Japan and Italy can hold out long enough, Germany takes Moscow then comes back to hit England. Then the US tries to help England and Japan ends up getting a reprieve.

ItIsLeClerc,
I think you are overestimating Russian strength in Moscow. You claim that Russia, WITHOUT any US or UK units or the 18 infantry and 2 AA guns from Siberia, that Russia will have over 85 units in Moscow by turn 5? I don’t think that is quite possible.
We had a game a while back and Russia went totally defensive from the start. They did build a couple of fighters but everything else was infantry starting from Turn 1. When Germany attacked, I think it was round 3, Russia immediately withdrew everything to Moscow. They didn’t try defending Leningrad or even the Ukraine or Stalingrad. Units built in the smaller factories started heading for Moscow the very next turn.
By the time Germany got to Moscow, Russia had 6 AA guns, 3 artillery, 2 tanks, 2 mechs, 5 fighters, 1 tac and something like 62 infantry. That included the Siberian divisions and the 6 infantry that start in Leningrad. They only lost about 9-10 infantry that got caught by the German advance before they could get to Moscow.
While it might be possible that Russia could have had a few more units if they made different purchases, but I still think your numbers are too high. You would need another turn or two to get those numbers.
By the way, this force stopped the Germans and Moscow was saved. In this game, US and UK were working to create the “second front” and after Moscow repulsed the huge German attack, the Western Allies were gaining too much and Germany couldn’t keep up the offensive against Russia.

[JDOW]

Hey there,

A G5 blitz to Moscow is indeed a threat and a viable strategy by the Germans. I assume the Germans attack Russia in G1? Or do they wait till G2?

In the end there are the following considerations to make:
1. How painful will the Moscow attack be? Example: If Germans win with 1 Tank and 2 bomber remaining they are most likely doomed to lose the game.
2. How efficient do you retreat? this is what cleric meant: How many Russian inf did you lose prior to the G5 Moscow attack?
3. What do the Allies do in the meantime? Germans buying no fleet should struggle early to UK and US landings in Western Europe. Here it is often a mistake to panic and send every UK fighter over to Moscow. The more fighters you send over the less pressure you can make in Normandy, Norway, Holland

4. Did you ever consider to block the Germans from stacking Bryansk G4? In case your opponent builds loads of tanks he does not have shitloads of land units in Bryansk G4. The question is: In case you prevent the Italians from taking Bryansk by sacrificing some Inf there, can you even attack the Germans in Bryansk in R4 in case they cannot land air there?

I can tell you one thing for sure: The G5 Moscow Blitz IS a viable strategy which can be successful if dice are decent for the Axis.
But it is also for sure a risky strategy. I can tell you for sure it is NOT an autowin and the Axis won’t have a 95%+ attack for sure.
And the question whether the Germans have 30%,50%,70% or 90% on Bryansk depends on what happens in the meantime. How lucky does German get G1? Do Germans lose some air for clearing the Med? How is the German air distracted  by invasions in the West? Tip here: In case the Germans offer you to take France, don’t refuse by definition. Retaking France and killing the 4 Instant appearing French inf, distracting the German Luftwaffe can easily be worth giving the Germans another ~14 IPCs for retaking France.

And last but not least:

5. Losing Moscow is not the end of the game. It really depends on the amount of losses the Germans take.
Attacking with everything and winning with 1 tank and 2 bombers remaining is a pyrrhic and the Axis are supposed to lose the game then.

Best,
Tobias
Here details matter: How smoothly can the Germans approach? How efficiently do the Russians retreat. How efficient does UK/US harass. It depends on little details here. In case you play online please upload a game file and I am happy to have a look and tell you if I find mistakes in the Allies’ play.

[ItIsILeClerc]

+1 to all and everything JDOW said!
(Well, in his above reply, that is ;-)). Really 100% how I experience a German advance into Russia.

@knp,
I calculated it like this, assuming Russia does not loose a single unit to Germany prior to its attack on Moskou (sounds harder than it actually is, believe me. Agreed, Russia must think ahead and do some pretty maths for this):

*Russia starts with 41 units in Europe and can produce;
*RU1 7INF + 4ART (37 IPC)
*RU2 7INF + 4ART (37 IPC)
*RU3 10INF Moskou + 2/3MECH Stalingrad (38/42 IPC)
*RU4 10units in Moskou (30+ IPC) including some ARM if possible to increase defensive value, assuming a GE5 attack on Moskou.

The total hits 86 units without Siberians or RAF.

There are of course many variables to income, so the total number of units in Moskou can be a bit more or less. The earlier Germany DOWs Russia,the more income Russia can have. Russia can take Persia or not (and/or Somaliland). Japan can nibble on Siberian IPCs. Etc. etc.

Anyway, Russia will, should and must have more than 75 units in Moskou. There are too many variables to discuss so I 'd like to leave it in the middle if over- or under estimated whether the Russians can get this to even 80+ by GE5.

[JDOW]

thanks for the praise cleric:)

the only thing you need to take into account is that Germans can kill 7 Russian Inf for sure G1 and I have seen openers where the Germans also attacked Vyborg G1.

[JDOW]

I meant Clerc, sorry about that!

[ItIsILeClerc]

@JDOW:

I meant Clerc, sorry about that!

No problem ;-).

@JDOW:

thanks for the praise cleric:)

the only thing you need to take into account is that Germans can kill 7 Russian Inf for sure G1 and I have seen openers where the Germans also attacked Vyborg G1.

To be honest I have never seen a GE1 DOW yet, but is that a viable option even?

I mean yes, GE2 and GE3 are both viable and can be lethal if met with even minor allied mistakes or bad dicing (personally I prefer GE3, it runs more naturally) but GE1? Germany fighting in Paris, the Atlantic AND Russia from GE1?
My guts tell me Germany must be hurting in 1 or most likely 2 out of the 3 fronts in such a case. But I admit it is just ‘guts’ speaking now…
So far I have always been able to ‘stop’ a GE2 (for 1 turn) effectively making it a GE3 just the way you described and I am thinking isn’t this even more possible if GE1? Doesn’t Germany reduce Barbarossa into a series of border skirmishes first few turns if it DOWs GE1?

[ghr2]

@ItIsILeClerc:

+1 to all and everything JDOW said!
(Well, in his above reply, that is ;-)). Really 100% how I experience a German advance into Russia.

@knp,
I calculated it like this, assuming Russia does not loose a single unit to Germany prior to its attack on Moskou (sounds harder than it actually is, believe me. Agreed, Russia must think ahead and do some pretty maths for this):

*Russia starts with 41 units in Europe and can produce;
*RU1 7INF + 4ART (37 IPC)
*RU2 7INF + 4ART (37 IPC)
*RU3 10INF Moskou + 2/3MECH Stalingrad (38/42 IPC)
*RU4 10units in Moskou (30+ IPC) including some ARM if possible to increase defensive value, assuming a GE5 attack on Moskou.

The total hits 86 units without Siberians or RAF.

There are of course many variables to income, so the total number of units in Moskou can be a bit more or less. The earlier Germany DOWs Russia,the more income Russia can have. Russia can take Persia or not (and/or Somaliland). Japan can nibble on Siberian IPCs. Etc. etc.

Anyway, Russia will, should and must have more than 75 units in Moskou. There are too many variables to discuss so I 'd like to leave it in the middle if over- or under estimated whether the Russians can get this to even 80+ by GE5.

ditto

[Young Grasshopper]

Great topic, great thread, great discussion… Bravo.

[BluGerman]

One thing i have never understood is the full retreat. I get that if you withdraw everything to Moscow or the other victory cities that you make it a lot harder for Germans to take, but if you dont leave a couple inf behind in a screen doesnt it just let Germans Blitz there faster and make the strategy less effective?

[ghr2]

@BluGerman:

One thing i have never understood is the full retreat. I get that if you withdraw everything to Moscow or the other victory cities that you make it a lot harder for Germans to take, but if you dont leave a couple inf behind in a screen doesnt it just let Germans Blitz there faster and make the strategy less effective?

Germany has to go as slow as his inf/art are going.  If he tries to blitz ahead, he won’t have enough units to take moscow and may not be able to hold the ground gained by blitzing.

[variance]

Here’s my take on it, but I play weird and not always well.  :-)

First, if he is using his airforce on the UK fleet G1, that means he is going into France with land units that are out of position to enter soviet territory before G3.  If he wants to attack you G2 it will be a weak attack.  My response to that is to build 6 tanks in Leningrad and Ukraine and put everything in range to strafe East Poland if he dares to march his flimsy stack in there G2.  Your threat of that counterattack just bought you a turn.  The earliest he can attack Moscow is now G6.  You did spend money on those tanks instead of infantry, but you get another turn’s worth of infantry to build later, and the mobility of those tanks may give you options if opportunity presents itself.  If you can hold out until R6 and R7 when the far east troops get to Moscow its going to get hard for him.

Second, don’t just pull everything back to Moscow without considering the likely outcome if he were to attack you at each step.  Giving up territory is giving up time, and time is infantry.  Only take a step back if he would not be able to take you down without unacceptable losses on his side (this may be where your allied fighters are useful, and where him sending the luftwaffe on escapades elsewhere may cost him).  If killing your infantry at Bryansk would mean digging into his artillery and armour to do it, then stand your ground.  If not, then turtle and pray.

[iceage36]

Hi all, thanks for all the replies…I played again this monday and got rolled again on turn 5…

I was attacked on turn 2. I pulled every possible infantry back i could. He moved is stack of 11 infantry to east poland turn 1 bought 5 tanks. He lost 1 fighter in the atlantic sinking all my ships but left 110 alone.

My new? is I have heard people saying the u.s. can land in w. germany to disrupt…we are talking about turn 5 correct? because u.s. cant attack germany until turn 4 right?, or at least launch from washington towards germany on turn 4. what I do with the u.s. is turn 4 put fleet with 8-10 loaded transports to gibraltar. turn 5 i can hit pretty much anything i want, italy,normandy,denmark,holland,w.germ,norway… I usually go for w. germany.

Germany’s build on turn 5 is all inf that are placed on germ and w.germ to repel the us attack. I usually cant get a uk fleet going until the us is parked by england to protect them.

Back to moscow…It fell again turn 5, I had 12 allied planes defending and i hit with 2 aa shots which was nice…He took russia with 2 bombers,2 fighters and 6 tanks left…

then immediately turned it all around back to germany…meantime he is now getting 80 plus ipc’s a turn. not much I can do even if i take w.germany with the u.s.

Also i cant build any navy with the u.k. because he leaves all his luftwaffe in w .germany until turn 4, then he moves them over to attack russia turn 5…

Also i would say i lose about 6-8 original russian infantry who cant retreat back fast enough from the tanks…

[variance]

What is your opponent doing with Japan?  You said that USA can’t have ships leave the eastern seaboard until round 4, which is true if Japan hasn’t attacked the allies, or if UK/ANZAC provoked them first.  Usually USA is too tied up building subs and destroyers for the Pacific for the first few rounds anyway, but it should be possible to put something in the Atlantic by that time.

Also, what’s the situation in Egypt?  Usually if Germany goes for a fast Moscow kill G5 or G6, they expend so much doing it that Cairo becomes very hard to get, simply because Germany doesn’t have enough production capacity nearby (i.e. all the Eastern front ICs are minors and can’t be upgraded), and its easy for USA to fly fighters in to reinforce the UK infantry, south African mechs, and units that evacuated from India.

You might even look into the possibility of evacuating Moscow when death is inevitable and marching the whole lot down to Caucasus or North Persia to join up with the Brits.  That takes some timing but you might stop them from winning on the Europe side right there, and in the meantime USA should have Japan out of contention on the Pacific side.  After that USA can focus on Europe.  The allies can eventually win that way, but you are looking at a 20+ round kind of game though.

[Gargantua]

Build more infantry and less tanks.

Also - A dirty trick to try and pull off, would be to allow your opponent to seperate his planes from his ground unit stack when they move up.  (Unless he’s using Italy for some extra coverage).

If you can strafe just his ground force, with all of your ground force, for a turn or two, then retreat,  sometimes that can get a few extra units your way.

[ItIsILeClerc]

@iceage36:

(…)My new? is I have heard people saying the u.s. can land in w. germany to disrupt…we are talking about turn 5 correct? because u.s. cant attack germany until turn 4 right?(…)

Depends on what happened in the Pacific (assuming Adolf will not DOW the USA…). USA could be in the war Turn 1 already.

@iceage36:

(…)I was attacked on turn 2 (…). I would say i lose about 6-8 original russian infantry who cant retreat back fast enough from the tanks (…).

Only if Germany attacks GE1 you cannot prevent loosing Russian INF (obviously). If Germany attacks GE2, then the only units in danger are those in Vyborg and Karelia.

As far as retreating goes, retreat them via Leningrad (RU1)->Archangelsk->Vologda->Moskou (RU4).
Keep a big Red Army stack next to them, to destroy any german ARM+MECH that came to kill this small northern army. Remember, killing German ARM+MECH while loosing INF/ART is in your advantage.

Most importantly; if you do not have to retreat, then do not! This requires some calculation, but so be it. Reread JDOW’s post.

If counterattacking/making a stand is a bridge too far for whatever reason, then just defend Moskou.
I understand that your Americans made Germany produce nothing that could threaten Russia from GE4 and on. Excellent. This means that Germany will have between 74 and 81 units total that can attack Moskou GE5, assuming the Luftwaffe is still 100% intact. Apart from the fact that Germany (Normandy/Southern France/Paris/West Germany/Berlin/Italy) is now very vulnerable to the Americans/UK due to heavy focus on Russia, we just look to the East Front.

If border wars did happen (meaning you counterattacked), Germany will have fewer units and so does Russia but to the Russian advantage because the Red Army will have gained another production round in this case Germans attacking Moskou GE6 instead. Just make sure German/Russian losses are roughly equal. No suicide attacks.

Without any border wars, Germany can have 74-81 units (depending on the ARM/MECH balance in their production) to attack Moskou GE5, maximum.
Russia can/should have anywhere between 81-89 units to defend Moskou, all by itself so without any RAF or Siberians. This is assuming Germany did not sacrifice some of their ARM/MECH for your INF and no border wars happend on your western borders first few turns. Just a plain and simple Russian retreat.

Now, assuming normal/average luck on the dice for both sides, the best Germany can get out of this (81units against 81units) is a pyrrhic victory, winning Moskou but loosing all his forces except for 1 ARM and 2 or 3 aircraft. A pyrrhic victory in Moskou means the game is lost to the axis, most of the time. Especially with the serious American threat you had built up in the Atlantic.

BUT… Stalin can call his ‘friend’ Churchill for help as well. Sending just 6FTR from the RAF will be the death of even this Pyrrhic victory for Germany. More RAF can be sent if necessary (mainly to ridicule any German/Japanese STR bombing Moskou during the German approach).

[knp7765]

I just completed an attack last night of Germany taking Moscow. It was HUGE!
Germany = 53 Infantry, 10 Artillery, 14 Halftracks, 16 Tanks, 2 Fighters, 1 Tactical bomber and 7 Bombers. TOTAL = 103 units
Russia = 4 AA guns, 82 Infantry, 6 Artillery, 2 Halftracks, 2 Tanks, 2 Fighters and 1 Tactical bomber. TOTAL = 99 units
I got very lucky as Germany when Russian AA didn’t hit a single plane.
The battle took several rounds of combat as you might guess. Germany ended up winning with 8 Tanks, 2 Fighters, 1 Tactical bomber and 7 Bombers.
Russia would have had 4 fighters, but during an earlier SBR by Germany, the German bombers took out 2 of them.
I know Germany lost a lot of units, but since there was nothing else to threaten them from this direction (All Russian units were dead and the UK were under siege in India) and Germany managed to keep enough to fend off the Western Allies, I think it was still a good win.

[ItIsILeClerc]

Poor Iceage…

He wants to know how to finally defeat Germany and you provide him with yet another German win.
Shame on you, sir ;-)

Well done! Trying to stay on topic, may I ask what turn we are speaking of?
Judging by the number and type of Germans I guess this must have happened GE8 earliest.

Maybe you can try to explain what you think Russia/the Allies did wrong in your game and/or what they could have done to prevent the fall of Moskou/their loss?

After all, the Axis players themselves often know best how their plans can be hindered (having inside information about their plans), whereas the allies have to guess.
I know I do. When I’m playing Axis against a strong allied side I Always end up thinking: “If only they [Allies] will NOT do this or that, my win is secure but damn if they do it I am screwed!”

Last time I played Axis I won because Germany could take India (Moscow really was too fortified) while Japan was firmly in control of Hawai.
All because the USA had neglected the Pacific too much. Had the USA been stronger there, I would have lost the game with THE German army in India/middle east, Russia + Wallies at the gates of Berlin and USA/ANZAC firmly in control of Hawai and Sydney.