@Spendo02:
OR
Just make it that no matter how many Transports you have, you roll a single die @1 in defense each combat round.
I think that would be pretty agreeable for everyone?
@Spendo02:
@Gekkepop:
How would that be agreeable to everyone?
It makes even less sense than the other rules and changes absolutely nothing.
I actually liked the idea that a unit could kill only 3 defenseless transports but don’t think it goes nearly far enough and wouldn’t change anything in that form. If each (remaining) unit could auto-kill one defenseless transports before combat ends it would at least solve the problem of a single (or a few) fighters taking out a whole fleet with no risk.
Lets detail out the concerns:
Side A: TP in bulk create a problem of balance if they defend @1 because those add up and effectively act as screens because they are sinking ships that will no longer be able to attack.
Side B: It is poor form to decide that anything in a dice rolling game is auto destroyed by the mere presence of a hostile offensive unit.
So we give TP a chance to defend themselves, but limit the dice they roll. Â It effectively eliminates them as a screening unit because no matter the quantity, they only roll a single die when in combat, at the lowest possible odds to “hit”. Â However when left undefended, they are not free kills because there is a risk, albeit small, that they could shoot down a fighter or ram a ship and cause it to sink.
I’d even be willing to go as far as once a hit is scored against the TP (which are always the last remaining naval units), the entire flotilla is lost but they can, as a whole still roll a single die @1 to defend themselves.
I think that Spendo02 ideas didn’t receive the attention it should deserve.
Actually, combining it with some aspects of my lasts post, this can provide a very interesting way of resolving both transport issues:
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a bit overpowered classic Transports evolving in 2nd Ed. 1942 or G40 settings (side A), or
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a predictable results in an un-Axis & Allies rules auto-destroy (side B), defenseless and taken last OOB transport.
from DK’s: 1. The “auto-destroy” rule violates the spirit of the game.
Everything in this game involves decisions and risk, and has since the beginning. That’s what makes it so much fun. As Alexander Smith said “Everything is sweetened by risk.” Now we have a rule introduced where there is no risk - only auto-destruction. It is an exception to every other rule and every other unit in the game. All excitement in dice rolling to see what happens is removed. What happens is already decided with no variants at all - no anticipation. Lone transports just get swept off the board. yawn.
@Der:
@BJCard:
Kind of unrealistic for a navy to be screened by transports, don’t you think?
That is true - and unrealistic. Yet these things happen a lot in this game.
(…)
At this scale everything is a bit abstracted. The point is, if you do choose your transports first, you are losing IPCs and losing your ability to move troops across water. You are losing something, especially when they cost 8 IPCs. At that price, you might as well send in DDs which attack and defend @ 2. You have to make a decision - which is good, fun, and fits with the rest of the game.
The “transports must be chosen last” rule only takes away more of your decision power as a commander. The naval battles become more scripted and less interesting. Â Â Â
@Der:
Larry Harris said this about transports in 2007 on his site:
"I will say this: “Transports are considered to be lightly defended with escorts. Additional ships provide additional defense and so on.” (Posted: Fri 23.Feb, 2007)
So originally transports were not to be thought of as just transports.
Two maxims of the game have generally been:
1. every decision involves some risk (dice rolls)
2. defender chooses his own casualties
The new transport rules violate both.
@Der:
The Classic transport:
- Represents a TROOPSHIP - not a supply ship.
- Blends nicely with one of the maxims of the game “defender chooses his own casualties”
- Makes learning the game easier - less “special” rules
- Keeps the element of chance involved, thus more suspense = more fun
- Keeps battle command decisions in your hands - not the rules
The Global transport:
- is auto-slaughtered in large groups if alone
- removes some of your battle command power - you HAVE to choose transports last
- Does not fit with the general game rules - it is like an orange thrown into a barrel of apples (…)
What would happen if we combine Spendo02 idea with a rules which give more options for taking transport unit as casualties to both attacker and defender?
Here is the idea:
1- When making combat move, the attacker declare if he is going to
A) attack only warships, and leaving transports in the sea zone, or
B) attack warships and transports.
2- The A situation will be conduct as OOB except that, at the end, the remaining stack of transports is not destroy and can flee (or even stay in the SZ) anywhere on the next defending player’s turn.
3- The B situation, now give more options to the defending player with this rule:
Transport A0 D1@1 M2 C8, 1 hit.*
*** Any number of transport units get only 1 roll @1 per round**, however each unit have 1 hit value and can be pick individually as a casualty (so can be hit soaker as AAA gun).
So, for the essential, transport has always a 1 hit value but, as long as the attacker declares he want also to destroy transport units, the defender adds a single dice @1 (to his dices pool) and the defender can use as many transport units as he wishes as fodder.
In this manner, transport units will always keep the same defense value whether there is still escorting warships with them or only transports remaining: 1 single dice @1 for the whole group of transports. That is a simplification from my previous HR.
This leave all the important choices to both players:
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The attacker choose or not to attack transports and the defender choose is own casualty as he sees it fits his needs.
Attacker have the choice to make combat as actual OOB, focusing on warships at the expense of letting transports survive. (Recreating somehow the effect of the taken last rule, but without having to write it.)
And if he chooses to attack both warships and transports, it will be a known part of the deal that transport units can be taken as fodder to protect costlier warship units.
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For the defending player, when he has to choose casualty, the main choice for him is to loose a transport unit before taking a casualty amongst defending warships or loosing warships to preserve transport units.
In addition, there is no need to add more complex taken last and no combat value of transport rules.
Also, when alone, a single transport act almost like Classic transport defending @1, except for:
can not be used as a blocker (against amphibious assault, or CM passing through a SZ or NCM)
nor it cannot be mandatory to fight them in a given SZ.
So this HR is keeping the most interesting features of OOB transport rules.
However, defending player cannot throw without risks a core fleet of 1BB+1CV+2Fgs amongst a lot (a dozen for instance) of Transports thinking he have enough fodders to protect the warships, because the attacking player can decide to only shoot warships and keeping alive transports (for another turn). In a way, warships are still doing their escorting / protecting role toward transports (an indirect taken last effect).
Now, do you think this new transport rules could improve the game experience while keeping the balance of G40 and 1942.2?
As a side note, there is still room for this kind of Tech:
@knp7765:
Also, since the Tech “War Bonds” was rather unpopular with our group, we came up with a new tech: Armed Transports. This gives transports a defense factor of 1.
With this ability, the “defenseless transport” rule is abolished. Now transports CAN be taken as casualties during a battle. (…)
According to this Tech, armed Transport will be acting exactly as a Classic transport and a regular warship.
Armed Transports A0 D1 M2 C8, 1 hit.
