This rule is part of the Axis & Allies Global 1940 2E, House Rules Expansion.
The Escort unit is a sea unit, that has multiple tasks. The primary task is to protect Transports as part of a Convoy.
The aberration of the defenseless transport
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Would make the allies more fun to play.
It has been an axis favored game since AA50.
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Sadly my Germany guide is not as big of a hit as my Japan one, but my Germany guide came out much later. I should have put it out when the game was still new, but I had been heavily requested to wait on it. Allies players did not like the sudden shift to Japan declaring war sooner.Now it is very rare to see G3 and J3.
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I would be more ok with rolling a 12 sided die for transports and let them hit on a 1.
I would be ok with giving each transport an AA dice.NOT ok with them attacking lol, that is absurd. Carriers dont get an attack value and they carry more weapons than transports.
Comparing transports to bombers is ludicrous. Bombers once taken to the skies are war machines (flying fortresses if you will)
Honestly the more i think about it the more i love the current system, i do not want a game where rarely any warships are built and its just mass transports.
Revised edition has some pretty horrible naval combat as rarely anyone attacks or buys navy other than transports. I do not want that.If you want an escort buy a destroyer.
If your transports keep getting killed because you cant count, then learn to count lol -
@Cow:
Would make the allies more fun to play.
It has been an axis favored game since AA50.
~
Sadly my Germany guide is not as big of a hit as my Japan one, but my Germany guide came out much later. I should have put it out when the game was still new, but I had been heavily requested to wait on it. Allies players did not like the sudden shift to Japan declaring war sooner.Now it is very rare to see G3 and J3.
There are still some strong advocates of G3/J3, and even some G4:J4; which I think is kind of absurd. I was surprised you haven’t interjected into the topic about holding off the US by attacking the Aleutian islands that turned into a debate on why waiting to attack as the Axis is better.
I think the Axis have been favored since A&A Revised to tell you the truth- just more pronounced since AA50. the original Europe and original Pacific were both heavily favored to the Axis as well.
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@Der:
Let me start this off first with a quote:
“All change is not growth, as all movement is not forward” - Glasgow
For six editions and the first 24 years of AA history, the transport has cost 8 IPCs and defended @1. Starting with AA Guadalcanal, transports became defenseless (the unit pricing scheme was all different). In the 50th Ann edition, transports became defenseless and cheaper, costing 7 IPCs.
I understand new rules create sales, so from a business standpoint, changing things is good. But IMO changing the transport rules hurt the overall game and here’s why:
1. The “auto-destroy” rule violates the spirit of the game.
Everything in this game involves decisions and risk, and has since the beginning. That’s what makes it so much fun. As Alexander Smith said “Everything is sweetened by risk.” Now we have a rule introduced where there is no risk - only auto-destruction. It is an exception to every other rule and every other unit in the game. All excitement in dice rolling to see what happens is removed. What happens is already decided with no variants at all - no anticipation. Lone transports just get swept off the board. yawn.
2. The 7 IPC rule makes amphibious assaults easier and cheaper.
Honestly, this rule seems to have been added only because transorts were made weaker by the first rule. To me this is going in the opposite direction of the way it should. It’s already too easy to take islands like Okinawa and such with bombardment. Amphibious assults ought to be hard and EXPENSIVE - that’s why it took the allies so long to achieve one in Europe.
OBJECTION: Transports defending @1 is unrealistic!
ANSWER: how often in WWII were transports left completely alone? To me this defense value reflects smaller DD escorts, PT boats, AA batteries and such that would normally be in the vicinity of transports. Plus some transport vessels were lightly armed.VERDICT: I say they should have left transports the way they were!Â
The problem with the old system is that transports were always taken as casualties first.
Naval battles became a transport trading fest.
You could make defend at 1, for the cost of $1 more, but only so long as the “chosen last” system remains in place.
It’s that, or for $1, transports reserve the right to retreat on a die roll instead of defence.
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what about my hybrid plan garg? Transports roll 1 attack and defend. Cannot be taken as casualties, instant die if unprotected at the end of an attack and defend roll against 1 or more attacking units.
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Well aircraft carriers should attack at 1 then
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I miss that too, but they are really powerful in global as it is. >,<
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The 2-hit aircraft carriers along with the capability of having a tac bomber with a fighter made the carrier very powerful… don’t mind the loss of attack value.
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Im just saying it would be absurd to give transports an attack value while aircraft carriers do not
It would be absurd to give transports an attack value period lol
Maybe we should just get rid of all boats except transports, they attack/ defend at 3/3 can carry 2 of any unit, can also carry 2 of tacbomber/or fighter (and conduct flight operations) also can shore bombard and amphib assault while simultaneously fight of other transports and raid convoys, they cost 36 IPCs and there you have it, military transports in action
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I do not know how you guys would die, but if all the ships around me got sunk and there was no escape… I would ram what I can and hope for the best.
Which is why you would never be given command of a ship :lol:
Garg had it right that transports used to be used as ablative armor for the fleet. This is why Larry changed the rules. Any concept that the TT has intrinsic support vessels went out with the addition of cruisers and destroyers. Protecting transports is part of their responsibility.
This debate really needs to go one of two directions: 1. a House Rule that would at least have popular use, or 2. a viable change that might actually have a chance to find its way into future additions of the game (this would have to be a subtle change to have any chance with Larry).
Right now looks like everyone is in the phase of throwing spaghetti at the wall.
Kim
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Okay heres an idea. Â Why not house rule this:
Corvettes- Any player may build corvette class escorts that defend @ 1 for an extra 2 or 3 IPCS per transport. It is marked on the board by placing a national marker underneath each transport. The corvette is ‘built-into’ the transport and is non-transferable. It (the corvette escort coupled with a TRNS) can be taken as a casualty the same as any other unit.
I may use some old Attack! pieces for this if I decide to do it. They’re small and would make a good marker.
M-2* Coupled to transport. A-0 D-1 C- +2/3 (You/Play Group decide) to transport at time of purchase. 1 corvette/escort to one transport.
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Okay HBG we need some corvettes molded in OOB colors LOL. Us house rulers would love them.
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And while you’re thinking of ideas, consider the following about American amphibious cargo ships (originally called Attack Cargo Ships, or AKA):
"Attack cargo ships played a vital role in the Pacific War, where many were attacked by kamikazes and other aircraft, and several were torpedoed, but none were sunk or otherwise destroyed. "
So why are so many sunk so mercilessly in A&A??
Kim
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How about this for a house rule idea: leave the transport rules exactly as they are, except transports in excess of combat units can be taken as casualties. This allows combat units to “screen” transports, but unscreened transports can be lost.
Example:
A fleet containing a carrier, 2 fighters, a destroyer, and 5 transports is attacked. The first hit could be taken on the carrier, damaging it. The next hit may be taken on a transport, as there are 5 transports but only 4 combat units. However, the following hit must be taken on a combat unit, as the number of transports and combat units is now equal. The remaining order of loss could be destroyer, transport, carrier, transport, fighter, transport, fighter, transport. -
Under my plan transports pew pew @ 1 but do not provide fodder.
What is wrong with that? They have weaponry and are capable of assisting a battle. Yes other naval ships protect them which is why they die first. Does not mean a transport had no tactical value in a naval engagement when in fact they did. Transports have rammed into other naval vessels and fired upon aircraft.
A ship was always better than no ship in ww2.
Yeah I think carriers should attack and defend at 1 instead of 0-2.
If I had command of a transport and my marines were offloaded… yes I would do what I can to help a major naval engagement. I might try to ram a sub while trying to engage aircraft above. 3 subs were rammed by a transport in WWII. It just happens.
Back to the topic. 1-1 and no casualty seems like a better transport both game mechanic wise and realistically.
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kreighung stop making complicated rules. :(
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Every “special rule” you come up with only further complicates the game. You just do this, guys - you make transports the way they were for 24 years.
In 2004 before all of this tinkering with the rules Larry Harris said on his site “Transports work well and always have.”
Transports defended @1 because they were assumed to be escorted.
Now there are DDs in the game that defend @2.However, there were still many types of escorts that took part in WWII protecting transports that were not as good as DDs but still offered some protection. There were Merchant aircraft carriers, Catapult Aircraft Merchantmen, Armed merchant cruisers, Corvettes, Frigates, and Escort Carriers. These can be represented by making the transports defend @1 as they used to. This is 1/2 the strength of a DD escort.
Stop the reminiscing “when we used to play back in the 80’s, blah blah” - it won’t work that way anymore - now BBs take 2 hits, subs cost 6 IPCs, and DDs are a purchase option. You bump the classic transport up to 10 IPCs and call it a troopship, which is what it is anyway. Nobody is going to be fool enough to use them as fodder anymore.
And best of all: no special rules. They fit in nicely with the rules already in place. Plug them in and just play.
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@Baron:
So what if a lone fighter can’t simply wipe out a bunch of transports? Is it fair or unbalanced that ONE unit can wipe out and theoretically destroy an INFINITE amount of transports because they are unescorted?
That’s the aberration portion.
You may play 1940 Global with TT Def@1 8 IPCs.
But giving starting TT Def@1 will have an impact.I already thinking about a similar unit: TT+corvette/frigates Def@1 9 IPCs.
And also keeping TT @0 7IPCs.
And transport are taken as last casualities.Just a way to upgrade starting TT for 2 IPCs near IC or NB.
In this way, it follows the rule for navy unit: average is 2 IPCs for 1 point Att or Def.
Anyone can buy either TT at 7 IPCs or TT lightly escorted at 9 IPCs.It can simulate the progressive introduction of this small naval units during WWII specially to protect against Subs.
Probably no one will buy TT with no hit value after introducing TT@1 C9…
Hey! Someone steal my ideas! :-o
Okay heres an idea. Why not house rule this:
Corvettes- Any player may build corvette class escorts that defend @ 1 for an extra 2 or 3 IPCS per transport. It is marked on the board by placing a national marker underneath each transport. The corvette is ‘built-into’ the transport and is non-transferable. It (the corvette escort coupled with a TRNS) can be taken as a casualty the same as any other unit.
I may use some old Attack! pieces for this if I decide to do it. They’re small and would make a good marker.
M-2* Coupled to transport. A-0 D-1 C- +2/3 (You/Play Group decide) to transport at time of purchase. 1 corvette/escort to one transport.
Actually, you got exactly what I was thinking about how I could introduce both units: the nation markers!
I will make the adjusment +3 (and add your name as a partisan) in my summary post.I’m glad to see how this tread evolve and develop upon others ideas. :-D
This option with 2 TT units is a kind of historical oriented Global mid-term for Pro-escort in a TT unit and the No-escort in a TT unit.
So you can play with both OOB rules (classic and new) in the same Global game because of the 2 units. Isn’t nice and beautiful ?! 8-)
Everybody should be happy, no need to decide. :lol: -
And while you’re thinking of ideas, consider the following about American amphibious cargo ships (originally called Attack Cargo Ships, or AKA):
"Attack cargo ships played a vital role in the Pacific War, where many were attacked by kamikazes and other aircraft, and several were torpedoed, but none were sunk or otherwise destroyed. "
So why are so many sunk so mercilessly in A&A??
Kim
Cool, that it as the historical core ship of a real TTc A0D1C8 or even Cow version TTn A1?D1C? unit that can take better care of himself!
They weren’t that many, they should cost 10 IPCs like Der Kuenstler suggested.
Now we have:
the defenseless one: TTn A0D0C7 :oops:
The escorted one: TTc2 A0D1C7+2EF 8-)
The attacking one AKA: TTcow A1D1C10 :evil:EF: Escort Frigate (slower and lighter than DD)
I’m kidding.
But it is quite funny for those who wants Global Navy look like historical navy. -
@Cow:
Under my plan transports pew pew @ 1 but do not provide fodder.
What is wrong with that? They have weaponry and are capable of assisting a battle. Yes other naval ships protect them which is why they die first. Does not mean a transport had no tactical value in a naval engagement when in fact they did. Transports have rammed into other naval vessels and fired upon aircraft.
A ship was always better than no ship in ww2.
Yeah I think carriers should attack and defend at 1 instead of 0-2.
If I had command of a transport and my marines were offloaded… yes I would do what I can to help a major naval engagement. I might try to ram a sub while trying to engage aircraft above. 3 subs were rammed by a transport in WWII. It just happens.
Back to the topic. 1-1 and no casualty seems like a better transport both game mechanic wise and realistically.
Many seems reluctant to give A1 to a TT even our new AKA. Even if the debate is still raging on, from Cow idea it is easy to extrapolate another type of TT: a simply less dangerous one on attack. That is both mine and Cow:
TTn2 Baron [Cow] A0D1C7, 1 hit value, can survive if no enemy after 1st round. No escape, auto-kill.
TTn3 Cow A1D1C7, 1 hit value, can survive if no enemy after 1st round. No escape, auto-kill.
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