Is this kind of thing surprising anymore?

[EmuGod]

@F_alk:

Look….
How does the US react to any “interference” to their inner problems?
They either “ignore” it out of their position of power, or -when it is touching a nerve- go to the extremes in their answers.
Just assume there was a country such more powerful than the US as the US are more powerful than the other countries of the world…
I guarantee you, the people of the US would not be happy if that other country presses its issues and interests in the US. And: you could do nothing about it!
Well you can: if you are friendly/civilized, you complain. If you are unfriendly/uncivilized … and remember, if your complaints are ignored long enough, many people become so!.. well, then you might consider something else, something that “hurts” the dominant power.

Noone objects if the US “leads”, as they are the superpower of the moment. But, leading does not mean you have to put the others on a leash and punish them once they dare to disagree.

You forget one thing: MONEY!!.. The US is living on foreign money!
Your economy kind of survive with the natural ressources (once the citizens notice that some things actually cost something and have a worth), but a complete “shutdown” caused by this lack of money is a different story.

We would suffer severly, especially the neighbors (Mexico, Canada) and major exporting countries (e.g. Germany)… but i don’t think these countries would collapse.
For the “americana”, well, people like action movies maybe… but it’s not like they would kill because they will never see Bruce Willis on the screen again. They would be upset if there was no “Hamburger” anymore, but then … we have Tacos, Kebabs, Bratwurst and a lot of other fast food…

USies have this tendency to totally over-estimate their position, and be over-confident that they are right in what they think and do. This is why they over-react once they are proven wrong. 9/11 is just one example, Vietnam is another of another kind, Pearl Harbor is a third.

F_alk, as a European and especially as a German you don’t much of a right to criticize the Americans for their policies. It was European imperialism and belief in racial superiority that led to most of the problems in the third world today. Was it not Germany that believed in the 30s that by alienating parts of its population and forcing other countries (Austria, Denmark, France, Holland, Poland, Czechoslovakia etc.) to accept its racial hatred that it could make the world a better place? Was it not the Europeans that carved up the world and exploited its peoples for natural resources?

[dezrtfish]

@F_alk:

USies have this tendency to totally over-estimate their position, and be over-confident that they are right in what they think and do. This is why they over-react once they are proven wrong. 9/11 is just one example, Vietnam is another of another kind, Pearl Harbor is a third.

This is a kind of silly statement. No offence F_alk but I am fairly certain that no country go’s to war thinking “I’m not sure if we can pull this one off, but letts give it a go anyway!” :roll:

The only reason this seams to have any relavance is that in the present it is the US that has the power to make these decisions as opposed to the hundreds of years in the past that they were made by Euros. for Example: The Franco-Prussian War, The war of 1812, World War I, World War II, the French occupation of Vietnam etc. In other words for every example you have given there are example throughout history of the same situation.

[cystic crypt]

@EmuGod:

@F_alk:

Look….
How does the US react to any “interference” to their inner problems?
They either “ignore” it out of their position of power, or -when it is touching a nerve- go to the extremes in their answers.
Just assume there was a country such more powerful than the US as the US are more powerful than the other countries of the world…
I guarantee you, the people of the US would not be happy if that other country presses its issues and interests in the US. And: you could do nothing about it!
Well you can: if you are friendly/civilized, you complain. If you are unfriendly/uncivilized … and remember, if your complaints are ignored long enough, many people become so!.. well, then you might consider something else, something that “hurts” the dominant power.

Noone objects if the US “leads”, as they are the superpower of the moment. But, leading does not mean you have to put the others on a leash and punish them once they dare to disagree.

You forget one thing: MONEY!!.. The US is living on foreign money!
Your economy kind of survive with the natural ressources (once the citizens notice that some things actually cost something and have a worth), but a complete “shutdown” caused by this lack of money is a different story.

We would suffer severly, especially the neighbors (Mexico, Canada) and major exporting countries (e.g. Germany)… but i don’t think these countries would collapse.
For the “americana”, well, people like action movies maybe… but it’s not like they would kill because they will never see Bruce Willis on the screen again. They would be upset if there was no “Hamburger” anymore, but then … we have Tacos, Kebabs, Bratwurst and a lot of other fast food…

USies have this tendency to totally over-estimate their position, and be over-confident that they are right in what they think and do. This is why they over-react once they are proven wrong. 9/11 is just one example, Vietnam is another of another kind, Pearl Harbor is a third.

F_alk, as a European and especially as a German you don’t much of a right to criticize the Americans for their policies. It was European imperialism and belief in racial superiority that led to most of the problems in the third world today. Was it not Germany that believed in the 30s that by alienating parts of its population and forcing other countries (Austria, Denmark, France, Holland, Poland, Czechoslovakia etc.) to accept its racial hatred that it could make the world a better place? Was it not the Europeans that carved up the world and exploited its peoples for natural resources?

i disagree (as a fellow Canuck). F_alk can see first hand the devestation that these 70 years-old actions resulted in. I hardly believe that Germany has the ideals still that you refer to . . . .

[dezrtfish]

I have to agree with CC on that one, unless F_alk is nearing 100 years old and is a hardline facist. :P

[EmuGod]

@cystic:

i disagree (as a fellow Canuck). F_alk can see first hand the devestation that these 70 years-old actions resulted in. I hardly believe that Germany has the ideals still that you refer to . . . .

Actually, since 9/11 anti-semitism in Europe has been very much on the rise, especially in France. There has been some also in Germany, and in Greece. I have more specific information just not right here with me at the moment. Don’t forget about the fascists in Austria, how they almost took control of the country. Europe will simply never learn I’m afraid.

[Guest]

first falk, i resent you stereotyping me as a “USie”. i am absolutely not one. second, i am not saying that the other nations should like what the US does (because frankly i dont care at all if they despise us). i am mainly talking about the friggin protesters in the US arguing with the government, saying we have no position being involved with other nations affairs. going back to the “USie” thing, i would like you to explain what your point regarding 9-11, Vietnam, and Pearl Harbor is.
and you underestimate Americana in other nations. There are American clubs in places like Russia where teens go, put on levis, eat “American cusine” (hamburgers, fries, etc.) dance to american music, watch american movies, etc. also, all things american have become crazes in some places, even in the middle east, such as Kuwait (part of the reason Saddam invaded them back in the 90s) and in other places, like Japan, Americana has begun invading the nation, in certain areas (namely music) have you ever been to Japan? they are practically obsessed with American music, primarily oldies. especially the Beatles, which has been a massive craze over there for years. far beyond Bruce Willis Movies and hamburgers. and riot is not the same as kill, though rioting may involve killing

[Janus]

that was me again, i forgot to log in

[cystic crypt]

@EmuGod:

@cystic:

i disagree (as a fellow Canuck). F_alk can see first hand the devestation that these 70 years-old actions resulted in. I hardly believe that Germany has the ideals still that you refer to . . . .

Actually, since 9/11 anti-semitism in Europe has been very much on the rise, especially in France. There has been some also in Germany, and in Greece. I have more specific information just not right here with me at the moment. Don’t forget about the fascists in Austria, how they almost took control of the country. Europe will simply never learn I’m afraid.

there’s antisemetism in Canada - see Alberta (police chief in Calgary, i believe) Montreal, and Winnipeg to begin. And don’t get me started on the US.
My point is that to hold a country accountable and its citizens without opinion because of the actions made by others living in the same region many years ago would be to call America a racist nation because of its dealings with the Afro-American population (up until MUCH more recently than the events in Germany) and rendering their voices null and void on all opinions involving race. In fact given our treatment of Canadian citizens of Japanese descent, i would hardly call Canada an eternal bastion of tolerance.
I think that as long as the criticism is valid, coming from a person not known to be a liar or guilty of the same thing, then the geographical habitation of the source is something that may be ignored as a qualifier.

[cystic crypt]

@Anonymous:

first falk, i resent you stereotyping me as a “USie”. i am absolutely not one.

1. Did F_alk call you a “USie”?
2. Are you not one? I thought that you were from America?

second, i am not saying that the other nations should like what the US does (because frankly i dont care at all if they despise us).

so far many nations do not . . . yet. You obviously have not considered the implications of a dispised US. Where would they get their energy/water etc. from? Where would they ship their crappy cars and pop-culture to? How would they enforce American opinion around the world? The US still only makes up 1/30th or so of the world’s pop . . . and the world is shrinking daily. Imagine your citizens being treated in other countries the way that the US treats others. It is people like you that perpetuates the stereotype of the “stupid, arrogant, ignorant American”. You do your countrymen a disservice.

i am mainly talking about the friggin protesters in the US arguing with the government, saying we have no position being involved with other nations affairs. going back to the “USie” thing, i would like you to explain what your point regarding 9-11, Vietnam, and Pearl Harbor is.

not enough time . . . :)

and you underestimate Americana in other nations. There are American clubs in places like Russia where teens go, put on levis, eat “American cusine” (hamburgers, fries, etc.) dance to american music, watch american movies, etc. also, all things american have become crazes in some places, even in the middle east, such as Kuwait (part of the reason Saddam invaded them back in the 90s) and in other places, like Japan, Americana has begun invading the nation, in certain areas (namely music) have you ever been to Japan? they are practically obsessed with American music, primarily oldies. especially the Beatles, which has been a massive craze over there for years. far beyond Bruce Willis Movies and hamburgers. and riot is not the same as kill, though rioting may involve killing

Far too much stupidity.
“American cuisine” is crap. Hamburgers etc. . . . its all crap. The fact is that i HAVE been overseas, and true - they listen to American music (as much as Canadian all things considered) but if this vanished, then “oh dear - they would have to be more involved and develop more their OWN culture”. You seem to think that exporting American culture all over the world is a good thing. It is not. It is unfortunate that the youth of other countries embrace it because they forsake a heritage that is MUCH richer than the fly-by-night crap that is American (and sadly increasingly Canadian) culture.
The Beatles are British. They have a massive craze over a BRITISH group. So obviously they must crave old Brit culture than American? And you could not get hamburgers in other countries? And people would riot if they had to eat a non-McDonalds hamburger? (incidently the McDonalds in Russia is a Canadian one AFAIK) Or could not watch Bruce Willis run around, instead tolerating Mel Gibson or Russel Crowe, or Remmington Steele guy?

[EmuGod]

@cystic:

there’s antisemetism in Canada - see Alberta (police chief in Calgary, i believe) Montreal, and Winnipeg to begin. And don’t get me started on the US.
My point is that to hold a country accountable and its citizens without opinion because of the actions made by others living in the same region many years ago would be to call America a racist nation because of its dealings with the Afro-American population (up until MUCH more recently than the events in Germany) and rendering their voices null and void on all opinions involving race. In fact given our treatment of Canadian citizens of Japanese descent, i would hardly call Canada an eternal bastion of tolerance.
I think that as long as the criticism is valid, coming from a person not known to be a liar or guilty of the same thing, then the geographical habitation of the source is something that may be ignored as a qualifier.

I’m talking about the current generation. You’re right that there has been an increase in anti-semitism since 9/11 here in Canada as well, but it’s nothing compared to the increase in Europe. F_alk was criticizing all Americans for the foreign policy and the point of my post was to splash some cold water on his face so to speak - if he can hold all Americans accountable for these things then why can I not hold all Europeans accountable for these other things?

[Guest]

@EmuGod:

F_alk, as a European and especially as a German you don’t much of a right to criticize the Americans for their policies.

Then only the australian aborigines have a right to critize any policies, right?

@dezrtfish:

@F_alk:

9/11 is just one example, Vietnam is another of another kind, Pearl Harbor is a third.

No offence F_alk but I am fairly certain that no country go’s to war thinking “I’m not sure if we can pull this one off, but letts give it a go anyway!”

…In other words for every example you have given there are example throughout history of the same situation.

No, you totally misunderstood the point of the examples.

@Janus:

… second, i am not saying that the other nations should like what the US does (because frankly i dont care at all if they despise us).

That is one part of the problem, that you don’t care about the rest of the world… well at least not what they think.

going back to the “USie” thing, i would like you to explain what your point regarding 9-11, Vietnam, and Pearl Harbor is.

Next posting will cover that.

…. especially the Beatles, which has been a massive craze over there for years.

CC already made that point. And it is fitting to the “ignorant” stereotype.

@EmuGod:

…but it’s nothing compared to the increase in Europe. F_alk was criticizing all Americans for the foreign policy and the point of my post was to splash some cold water on his face so to speak - if he can hold all Americans accountable for these things then why can I not hold all Europeans accountable for these other things?

First, i can’t compare possible increases in anti-semitism between europe and most other continents.
Second, i didn’t blame “Americans” but “USies”. And yes, i blame all of them a priori, and in special cases (when the one i talk to shows he voted against GWB for example, or shows he/she does not agree), then i change and exclude that person.
And sure, you can hold the Euros accountable, but it is funny that you forget the most striking point: that we “fathered” the US, and our child is now running wild without paying any respect to the “elders”. WE have failed as parents. That is something you can blame Europe for…
(i guess that is another nice “grenade”)…

[Guest]

@F_alk:

USies have this tendency to totally over-estimate their position, and be over-confident that they are right in what they think and do. This is why they over-react once they are proven wrong. 9/11 is just one example, Vietnam is another of another kind, Pearl Harbor is a third.

you know u are the most Arrogent person on these forums. and u seem like your inlove with yourself

[Guest]

"That is one part of the problem, that you don’t care about the rest of the world… well at least not what they think. "

coming from a guy like you who praises individuality and self expression that statement seems hypocritical

[Guest]

To my examples and the point i wanted to make with them:
(1) 9/11 and pearl harbor showed the US that they are not “untouchable”, that they can’t sit and do whatever they want to the world, and expect that nothing comes back. It was a sign of “vulnerability”, which kind of contradicts being the greatest and mightiest nation on earth. (It is this “how could they”, “how dare they” reaction of the US public that can be used as evidence.)
They happened, because some nations/people could not stand the way they were treated by the US, and didn’t see that talking/diplomacy could help.
(2) Vietnam is another kind of example. It is the only “police action with used B 52 heavy bombers and chemical agents” that was lost by the US.
Notice the term “police action”, something i learnt here. Why does it seem so hard for the US to admit that they have lost a war?

So, the over-reaction to Vietnam is clear IMHO: the psychological effect of twisting the truth until you like it again, turning the facts until you haven’t lost a war, but just a “police action”.
The over-reaction to Pearl Harbor and 9/11 is more complex and probably there will be more discussion. My statement: The US frequently humiliates other nations (by blackmailing them by using military force or economical threats). Sometimes this doesn’t work…. (or which are these -promised by GWB and Rumsfeld- bitter bitter consequences that Germany, France and Russia have to deal and live with now? Nothing!) … and sometimes it does. When it does, this humiliation of course makes people in that country angry, and provokes resistance. This to me seems like a logical conclusion. Now, then how can the US be surprised if it back-lashes? (Ok, maybe Pearl harbor is not such a good example for that, as many historians follow the thesis that US gov’t needed an excuse to join into WWII).
And what is the reaction to this surprise? It is revenge. The “enemy must pay more than he did to us”, which will then lead to further humiliation.
The only thing that can stop this circle is the total defeat of one of the sides. …
And i personally don’t want the victor be the one who didn’t decide to step back out of a position of power, but who (out of the same position) put more oil into the fire.

(From my german point of view:
Germany lost WWI and some parts of society twisted and turned the facts until it seemed that it wasn’t really lost but just a premature surrender. Then the bitter pill of Versaille (humiliation) came to add, and we cried for “correction” (or better: revenge).
To contemplate about our failings (e.g. why WWI started at all, wether we could have had a peace in between, wether we as winner would have been more fair to the defeated) was extremely ill-seen… unpatriotic, treachery etc.
This lead to WWII, and only the total defeat allowed us and gave us the time to see what we did wrong.)

That’s what i call over-reacting: a misinterpretation of the world, facts, opinions and feelings around. You can say i am wrong and the one who misinterpretes… but this objection usually comes from USies, while the vast majority outside the US sees the USies having a strnage way to see things.

…

Now to the Guest, i assume it’s Janus, am i right?
(1) self-expression and individuality does not mean that i have to spit into everyones face. It doesn’t mean at all that i should not think about others. It rather means that i see differences between the people, that i take their positions into account.
It looks like for you “seeing differences” leads without error to a situation where one has to give in to the other to make these differences go…
I can accept specialities of every culture as long as they don’t interfere with mine. Should they interfere, then we (both sides) have to find a way to make the situation acceptable for both.
(2) arrogant and in love with myself…
yes, you can call me arrogant concerning some things. There are things i strongly despise, where i have made up my mind and don’t think that i am open to discussion there. That is pretty human i guess, and everyone who says he is open to anything should start a thread about the good sides of molesting little children for example. There are some things i just can’t tolerate, some things were i can be brought to discussion (though i will be extremely biased) and some things that i discuss freely and enjoy to discuss.

In love with myself…
Sure, sometimes i am very happy with myself. Sometimes i am not. Most of the time i try to take actions that are not hurting anyone else, this actually is one of the principles i try to follow. I know i am not perfect, but: i hate people who are convinced they are perfect. (this may be an explanation of why i despise the US as a whole: not its citizens, but the concept of the “best country in the world”)

[Guest]

Some more non-surprising news:

See
http://www.cnn.com/2003/US/06/30/icc.military.aid/index.html
and explain to me why this is not bullying and/or blackmailing.

[dezrtfish]

First, I can’t compare possible increases in anti-semitism between europe and most other continents.
Second, i didn’t blame “Americans” but “USies”. And yes, i blame all of them a priori, and in special cases (when the one i talk to shows he voted against GWB for example, or shows he/she does not agree), then i change and exclude that person.
And sure, you can hold the Euros accountable, but it is funny that you forget the most striking point: that we “fathered” the US, and our child is now running wild without paying any respect to the “elders”. WE have failed as parents. That is something you can blame Europe for…
(i guess that is another nice “grenade”)…

First off, I voted For President Bush. If that makes me what you call a USie, well what can I say? I have the freedom to use my brain to decide for myself who I want to be running my country. I am DAMN proud of what my President has accomplished and I am 100% confident that he will continue to make me proud.

Sometimes parents get old and can’t understand what is going on around them anymore, then their caring children must make the decision to lock them up in a home for confused elderly people who are trying to live in another century. For their own protection. (We need an Emoticon to represent a grenade 8) )

To my examples and the point i wanted to make with them:
(1) 9/11 and pearl harbor showed the US that they are not “untouchable”, that they can’t sit and do whatever they want to the world, and expect that nothing comes back. It was a sign of “vulnerability”, which kind of contradicts being the greatest and mightiest nation on earth. (It is this “how could they”, “how dare they” reaction of the US public that can be used as evidence.)
They happened, because some nations/people could not stand the way they were treated by the US, and didn’t see that talking/diplomacy could help.

This makes no since at all. You are saying that our actions prior to 1941 were deserving of being declared war on and being attacked with out warning by another nation?

Well then I guess the French deserved to be attacked as well for being too dumb to pay attention to their border with Holland. Not to mention their arrogance at the treaty of Versailles. Witch I might add was warned against by whom? Oh yeah the American President, who refused to sign the rag.

2. Vietnam is another kind of example. It is the only “police action with used B 52 heavy bombers and chemical agents” that was lost by the US.
   Notice the term “police action”, something i learnt here. Why does it seem so hard for the US to admit that they have lost a war?

The reason it was a police action was because we did not and could not declare war on a soviet protectorate. Our troops were not officially allowed to enter North Vietnam. We were trying to prevent NV from forcefully incorporating another independent nation. The problem is we realized too late that with out risking a world war by attacking NV we were trying to cup our hands around an anthill to prevent the ant from spreading. It is a doomed task. If we had been able to actually go to war with NV there would be no Republic of Vietnam now. I am not saying that we didn’t loose, because we did technically. We failed in our goals just like France did. But it was not because we couldn’t handle it, it was because it was a stupid untenable concept and when we learned this the hard way we abandon the idea.

The over-reaction to Pearl Harbor and 9/11 is more complex and probably there will be more discussion.

What! :o You must be joking!

I guess it was an over reaction for The British to declare war on Germany over such a trifling thing as the conquest of Poland as well.

(From my german point of view:
Germany lost WWI and some parts of society twisted and turned the facts until it seemed that it wasn’t really lost but just a premature surrender. Then the bitter pill of Versaille (humiliation) came to add, and we cried for “correction” (or better: revenge).
To contemplate about our failings (e.g. why WWI started at all, wether we could have had a peace in between, wether we as winner would have been more fair to the defeated) was extremely ill-seen…… unpatriotic, treachery etc.
This lead to WWII, and only the total defeat allowed us and gave us the time to see what we did wrong.)

That’s what i call over-reacting: a misinterpretation of the world, facts, opinions and feelings around. You can say i am wrong and the one who misinterpretes… but this objection usually comes from USies, while the vast majority outside the US sees the USies having a strnage way to see things.

I agree completely with your examination of the reasons for WWII, However I think the Germans were justified in being pissed. They just reacted too strongly too soon. I don’t see the connection to the US though. By the way I sure wish you could come up with a term that didn’t sound so gay. It wouldn’t bother me so much to be labeled if it was a label that was a bit manlier. :P How about Redneck, I like that much more. :D

[cystic crypt]

@dezrtfish:

First, I can’t compare possible increases in anti-semitism between europe and most other continents.
Second, i didn’t blame “Americans” but “USies”. And yes, i blame all of them a priori, and in special cases (when the one i talk to shows he voted against GWB for example, or shows he/she does not agree), then i change and exclude that person.
And sure, you can hold the Euros accountable, but it is funny that you forget the most striking point: that we “fathered” the US, and our child is now running wild without paying any respect to the “elders”. WE have failed as parents. That is something you can blame Europe for…
(i guess that is another nice “grenade”)…

First off, I voted For President Bush. If that makes me what you call a USie, well what can I say? I have the freedom to use my brain to decide for myself who I want to be running my country. I am DAMN proud of what my President has accomplished and I am 100% confident that he will continue to make me proud.

sorry, i missed this . . . what did he do that a 12 year old wouldn’t have done? (Besides running a massive deficit - when i was 12 i knew that usually was a bad idea in the long term).

Sometimes parents get old and can’t understand what is going on around them anymore, then their caring children must make the decision to lock them up in a home for confused elderly people who are trying to live in another century. For their own protection. (We need an Emoticon to represent a grenade 8) )

big grenade. and not just a normal grenade either. Especially when working in an institution where “the children know what’s best for dear old mom” and she ends up being institutionalized prematurely, and against her wishes (and a decent mental competency exam). Or the ones who ask us to end their mother’s life prematurely despite the fact that she is not suffering pain - they just want to continue their flight to Disneyland and don’t want mom to hang around until after their flight leaves. Is this the kind of relationship you are talking about? It sounds like it anyway . . . .

To my examples and the point i wanted to make with them:
(1) 9/11 and pearl harbor showed the US that they are not “untouchable”, that they can’t sit and do whatever they want to the world, and expect that nothing comes back. It was a sign of “vulnerability”, which kind of contradicts being the greatest and mightiest nation on earth. (It is this “how could they”, “how dare they” reaction of the US public that can be used as evidence.)
They happened, because some nations/people could not stand the way they were treated by the US, and didn’t see that talking/diplomacy could help.

This makes no since at all. You are saying that our actions prior to 1941 were deserving of being declared war on and being attacked with out warning by another nation?

The Japanese had reason to attack the US if not considered by pre-60’s US to be a good reason. Who was the president who threatened the world if oil was not allowed to flow to the US unimpeded? Loved that quote - wish i knew where it was.

Well then I guess the French deserved to be attacked as well for being too dumb to pay attention to their border with Holland. Not to mention their arrogance at the treaty of Versailles. Witch I might add was warned against by whom? Oh yeah the American President, who refused to sign the rag.

no. The French deserved to be attacked because they are French. It was only a matter of time until they were attacked by SOMEONE. ;)

The over-reaction to Pearl Harbor and 9/11 is more complex and probably there will be more discussion.

What! :o You must be joking!

I guess it was an over reaction for The British to declare war on Germany over such a trifling thing as the conquest of Poland as well.

Obviously the US did not “overreact” to Pearl Harbour. As for 9/11, although i fully support the retributative, punitive and appropriate measure taken in Afghanistan (and i’m glad that Canada participated - this was more of a police act anyway), the attacking of Iraq in retribution of 9/11 (cough cough) was over-reacting . . . .
Also, i think the British were upset because the Germans attacked France when the British clearly had dibs. A famous Winston goes something like “Those BASTARDS!!! They got to attack France the last time too!!!”

I agree completely with your examination of the reasons for WWII, However I think the Germans were justified in being pissed. They just reacted too strongly too soon. I don’t see the connection to the US though.

few people would argue that the US does not have every right to be upset and rectify 9/11. At the same time, they do go to far. Extraditing other nation’s citizens to a prison in a country like Syria? I mean if they extradited him here (his own country) he would at least be tried in a civilized court, placed in a “civilized” detention center etc. The Canadian gov’t has even cleared him of any wrong-doing/connection to Al Queda. This kind of action by the US is what could be considered over-reacting

By the way I sure wish you could come up with a term that didn’t sound so gay. It wouldn’t bother me so much to be labeled if it was a label that was a bit manlier. :P How about Redneck, I like that much more. :D
but it takes less time to write than “Americans”. It’s not like we say “wUSsies” ;)
Also stop dissing rednecks. That’s every good hard-working farmer - a heritage i take pride in as a prairie boy and a Mennonite.

[Guest]

@dezrtfish:

This makes no since at all. You are saying that our actions prior to 1941 were deserving of being declared war on and being attacked with out warning by another nation?

have a look at what many historians say, and by how much time the diplomats missed the declaration of war (and why)….

Notice the term “police action”, something i learnt here. Why does it seem so hard for the US to admit that they have lost a war?

The reason it was a police action was because we did not and could not declare war on a soviet protectorate.

Ah, now i see. You declared “war on terror”, but the people caught then are no prisoners of war… oh no, you didn’t declare war to the gov’t of Afghanistan, so they can’t be POWs… and it was the Allies that started WWII with declaaring war on Germany after we …well… police-actioned Poland??? And then the famous police-action of Nazi-germany against Russia…

The problem is we realized too late that with out risking a world war by attacking NV we were trying to cup our hands around an anthill to prevent the ant from spreading. It is a doomed task. If we had been able to actually go to war with NV there would be no Republic of Vietnam now. I am not saying that we didn’t loose, because we did technically.
We failed in our goals just like France did. But it was not because we couldn’t handle it, it was because it was a stupid untenable concept and when we learned this the hard way we abandon the idea.

It was because no one of you ever read “Il Principe” of Machiavelli. (summing: A Lord may be feared, but never be hated). The people of Vietnam didn’t want you there. That’s it. You can’t win a war (or even police action) against the people. It’s that easy.

It wouldn’t bother me so much to be labeled if it was a label that was a bit manlier. :P How about Redneck, I like that much more. :D

Rednecks are around in more countries than the US…. you could be a USie Redneck if you like :)

[dezrtfish]

Also stop dissing rednecks. That’s every good hard-working farmer - a heritage i take pride in as a prairie boy and a Mennonite.

Where I come from “Redneck” is something to be proud of that’s why I suggested it. I am sure my interperetation of it is a bit differesnt that yours, but it boils down to the same thing.

By the way, some time I will have to take a digital pic of my truck. I have a 78 blazer with 6 inch high red letters across the back window that say REDNECK. That was my nickname in Highschool. :wink:

As for the Care home thing, I realy don’t feel that way about older people. I have always been more comfortable around older people. I find them to be more honest and strait forward. I also belive it is my responsability to take care of my parents if the time comes, god forbid, thast they can’t do it for themselves.

The funny thing is that annalogy fits what I was trying to say better that what I said earlier. I should have thought about it for a few more minutes.

I guess I consider Europeans to be kind of like my grand father. I enjoy his company and conversation, and he is after all the basis of my origin, but we live in different worlds and there are some things that we just can’t relate to each other on.

[dezrtfish]

@F_alk:

have a look at what many historians say, and by how much time the diplomats missed the declaration of war (and why)….

The key phrase is “missed the declaration of war” and yes I saw Tora Tora Tora also.

@F_alk:

Ah, now i see. You declared “war on terror”, but the people caught then are no prisoners of war… oh no, you didn’t declare war to the gov’t of Afghanistan, so they can’t be POWs… and it was the Allies that started WWII with declaaring war on Germany after we …well… police-actioned Poland??? And then the famous police-action of Nazi-germany against Russia…

Come on… you know that as well as I that the “war on terror” is a figure of speech.

And, my reference to Poland was to show how ridiculous it sounds to say that we over reacted to Pearl harbor. How were we, I should say they as I wasn’t there, supposed to react? It’s not like it was an accident.

It was because no one of you ever read “Il Principe” of Machiavelli. (summing: A Lord may be feared, but never be hated). The people of Vietnam didn’t want you there. That’s it. You can’t win a war (or even police action) against the people. It’s that easy.

I have read Machiavelli, unfortunately historians are generally not the ones running our or most other countries for that matter. Like I said every one here knows that Vietnam was a mistake we don’t need to nave our noses rubbed in it.

All other world power countries have mad the same or similar mistakes that the US makes and will continue to make. And when we have moved out of the position of dominance that we enjoy now, I am sure we will criticize the next world power just like the Euro’s do to us now. :wink: