Holland / Dutch SOLUTION proposal, and other notes

[Gargantua]

Soldiers of Poland! 40 to 1!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HC7_qPCflnY

[WILD BILL]

We generally have units in Danzig (Elbing) join in an attack on W Poland w/some Czec & Stettin units then use part of this combined force to drop Warsaw in the 2nd impulse. I see how you could take Warsaw right off the bat though, and it does seem off.

Yea I’m not crazy about how the E Poland units just stand idle after the other two Polish territories are captured, but if they are allowed to attack the Germans in W Poland, or Warsaw then the Russians get the benefit of an empty East Poland so as the allies you would always use those units to attack with. It does limit what Poland can do though, so in a sense I agree that Poland could be re-vamped.

Maybe a similar (or even the same) rule that governs both Poland & Holland could be adopted.

1. Start with stripping away Warsaw’s minor IC (doesn’t really do much anyway) and make both the Dutch and Poles Allied Minor Powers that can produce units at their capital. Give them a 4 IPC (maybe 3 IPCs) fixed base income similar to Axis Minor Powers.

2. Swap out one of the starting inf from each of their capitals for a UK inf at set-up to symbolize that the UK activated their capitals before the game starts. This will give both Holland and Warsaw a 4 IPC starting income for builds on UK1, unless Germany takes their capital(s) and the plunder (extra incentive). UK is also allowed to build a minor IC on both Holland, or Warsaw if they have or regain control.

3. Both of these Minor Allied Powers are controlled by UK of coarse, and take their turn at the same time. UK also collects income posted on the map of the capital territory similar to how Germany & Axis Minor Powers work. This gives the UK full control over the units in the capitals, but not their other possessions (also puts UK at war if either of these capitals are attacked).

4. Because the capitals were activated these Minor Allied Powers are allowed to NCM their own units around as long as they end movement in  one of their original territories (or next to for ships). They can not attack, and will only def, unless fully absorbed by the allies.

5a) The UK (FEC/Anz) would still need to activate (NCM into) the other territories individually (like the DEI for instance) to gain full control over more units and the income generated. If the UK (or its Commonwealth) fully activates a territory belonging to one of these countries they are absorbed into that power (swap out units).

5b) In order to absorb the Dutch fleet you need to activate the territory adjacent to it (coastal ships would stay coastal though). If the Dutch move their fleet adjacent to a territory you activated (even at the same time), you would also absorb the fleet (minus the coastal ships that can still move adjacent to any orig DEI ter with-in movement range). You could also roll dice for the Dutch fleet if Holland falls to determine the fate of the fleet.

6. If their turn comes up and they are in control of their capital (maybe it was liberated) they get the set income of 4 IPCs for the capital in the collect income phase. They also receive a 1 IPC bonus for each of their other original territories still in their possession (or in allied control if later in the game). This would also include if for some reason on UKs first turn Holland is still Dutch. They would get 4 IPCs for the capital and 1 IPC for each of the DEI territories in Dutch or allied control (up to 6 additional IPCs) for a total of 10 IPCs. The Poles would also get the 4 IPCs for Warsaw, and a 1 IPC bonus for both W Pol & E Pol if allies are in control. Once a non capital territory is captured by the enemy, or absorbed/liberated by the allies it can’t go back to the original owner (Poles or Dutch), and the income goes to whomever has control of it.

7. The Russians would still have to fight their way into Poland as a combatant regardless of if they are at war w/Germany or not. If for some reason the Germans don’t get Warsaw, or W Poland G1 then the Poles could NCM units from E Poland to either of them (clearing the way for the Russians in E Poland). The UK inf in Warsaw could even activate the Polish units in E Poland to fully absorb them into the UK (collect the income) to deny the territory from the Russians. This would allow the Germans to take it though, so I can’t see it happening.

7b) (Optional)
Later in the game Warsaw is captured by the Russians (not liberated), the Poles would become a Minor Allied Power under Russia with the same rules as above. Russia would control the power, and units produced. They could even build a minor IC.

[americancyco]

Personally I think Holland and DEI should be treated as two different nations.

Because attack Holland just makes too much trouble for Japan and it doesn’t really reflect how the DEI were involed in WW2.
Maybe the DEI could be activated / cpntrolled by Anzac.

[WILD BILL]

@americancyco:

Personally I think Holland and DEI should be treated as two different nations.

Because attack Holland just makes too much trouble for Japan and it doesn’t really reflect how the DEI were involed in WW2.
Maybe the DEI could be activated / cpntrolled by Anzac.

That is what we are looking at. If Holland falls the Anz or FEC (Far East Command also referred to as India India if you like) can activate the DEI one at a time to claim for themselves along with the Dutch units on them. The thing is to make it worth it for Germany to attack Holland early, and have those units also make it to Paris. The way it is now the Germans don’t take Holland because it is no benefit to them, and the FEC get instant rich. Its like winning the Lotto for them.

[Tigerman77]

Holland can be bypassed but you have to realize that when Paris falls and if Holland is still not taken they become pro-Allied. Believe me if this happens UK can reinforce there and it becomes a very big thorn in the Axis side.

The DEI rules are in place for game balance more than historically accurate rules.

I havent been involved in any game or have heard of any game where the outcomes or the tactics have been exactly the same. To me, this is what makes a game really great is the re-playability.

Thanks for all the input!

[Gargantua]

@Tigerman77:

Holland can be bypassed but you have to realize that when Paris falls and if Holland is still not taken they become pro-Allied. Believe me if this happens UK can reinforce there and it becomes a very big thorn in the Axis side.Â

The DEI rules are in place for game balance more than historically accurate rules.

I havent been involved in any game or have heard of any game where the outcomes or the tactics have been exactly the same. To me, this is what makes a game really great is the re-playability.

Thanks for all the input!

Tigerman,

That’s not in the rules…  atleast not anywhere that I can find?  And if that’s the case, does ALL of the DEI become pro-allied?  Territory by Territory?  Because that’s what we’re requesting here.

As it stands,  Holland and the DEI has stayed neutral in every game I’ve played :S  Until MUCH later in the water.

With this being the case, does that mean if I take Paris G1, then sack Holland G2, that the DEI is simply pro-allied?  Or as soon as I actually sack holland the DEI territories go from pro-allied to full british.

Also, is the Belgian Congo considered part of holland? IE if I attack Holland, belgian congo becomes pro-allied?  As it stands, the allies usually “invade” belgian congo at some point to take it.

[Gargantua]

This still doesn’t fix the issue of Holland deliberately being avoided on G1.  As there is absolutely no reason to capture it.

Same goes from West Poland I suppose.

[WILD BILL]

I think what Tigerman posted is how it worked in the older rule set (Holland becomes pro allies if/when Paris falls). That rule set also had Holland start as a strict neutral, and if any Dutch territory was attacked by the axis, or if Paris falls then all Dutch territories become pro allied allowing them to be activated or reinforced by the allies. I believe the new rule set has the Dutch and English allied, so you would have the option to reinforce if Holland is still in Dutch hands (see later). In the older rule set you also had to activate each territory individually, not just move into one of them and get them all. The FEC wasn’t given all the DEI if Holland (or Paris) was taken, the FEC and Anz had to go in to claim each island (I think). There is also more Dutch navy in the Pacific then before, and you roll for them now (which is cool).

The main issue of the old rules to me was because of turn order the Japanese could start taking the DEI on their first turn w/o any consequences (by rule they could attack any strict or pro allied neutral w/o going to war w/UK). The Japanese started grabbing a couple of the Dutch Islands on J1 (1939), before the UK/Anz could get there to activate them for them selves (forcing a DOW by the Japanese). There was also no link between the Dutch and the Brits that would require a Japanese DOW on the UK to invade the DEI.

I liked how the mechanics worked in the old rules regarding the Dutch as far as how the FEC/Anz needed to activate each island individually to claim income and units (slower process), instead of how the new rules just give all the income to the FEC if/when Holland falls (which is rare now), or any DEI territory is attacked (which is also delayed until Japan goes to war w/UK). Maybe the allies need this early, instant influx of income going to the FEC from the DEI in the newer rules to balance the game though (IDK).

In the new rules I haven’t looked at the UK reinforcing Holland if the Germans don’t take it G1. The Dutch and English are allied so I believe you have that option, but it sounds like the Dutch would stay Dutch (not activated as UK units), and wouldn’t be able to join the UK units in an attack, they would only defend (which seems off to me if the UK actually moved ground units over some how). I’m also not sure it would be a good idea to reinforce Holland being that close to the German machine.

I think we need to blend some of the old rules w/the new to make it work. Maybe the Dutch (Holland) needs to go back to being a pro allied neutral w/stings attached to UK (see later).

1. If the Germans take the Dutch capital, then you roll for the ships to see which are scuttled, and which remain in Dutch control to be turned over to the FEC/Anz later (maybe allow axis to get some, but it could get weird in the Pacific IMO). The UK (FEC/Anz) would need to activate each Dutch island individually (if capital is taken) to gain the income and absorb the units (includes surviving ships next to those islands). Orig Dutch units defend only (until absorbed), but their units and ships can move to any orig Dutch territory or sz adjacent to it with in movement range.

2. If the Germans forgo taking Holland then the UK can fully activate the Dutch by NCM a UK ground unit into the the Dutch capital (bmr transport?). If UK activates Holland (capital), then all the DEI instantly become FEC (income), along with the units on them, or ships next to them (ships aren’t rolled for in this case, they are turned over to the FEC). (Maybe similar capital rules as above could work for all neutrals that have more then one territory?)

3. You could also allow the UK a liberation option w/Holland. If in the event the Germans take Holland (capital), but the UK is able to liberate it then any of the Dutch territories and units that are still Dutch fully join the UK/FEC. They basically become like Free French and all income and units go to UK in Europe, and FEC in the Pacific (you could leave them as Dutch, but they act like the English in every way).

**This will at least force the Germans to attack Holland G1 (to keep the DEI from fully becoming FEC if UK activates Holland), and if you use the liberation option the Euro axis would also have to keep Holland reinforced too (at least until Japan gets going).

You also need to have a Dutch/UK alliance in place that would force the Japanese to DOW w/UK (FEC) if they start invading the DEI. Would be simple because the Dutch Royalty fled to England (unlike the French that formed the Vichy Gov). So if Holland is attacked or activated then you treat all Dutch possessions as if they are UK politically, and a DOW w/UK would be needed for the Japanese to invade the DEI. I don’t think it would be in Japans best interest to have the Germans delay attacking Holland G1, allowing the UK the opportunity to fully activate the Dutch capital. I think the Japanese would fear all the DEI (income and units) instantly becoming FEC just so they could grab an island or two (maybe I’m wrong).

**If you think there is a possible loophole above then just say the Dutch, English & French have an alliance from the beginning, and if the Dutch are in control of their capital the UK (and French if Paris doesn’t fall) would consider a Japanese invasion of the DEI as an act of war against them all. The Japanese would be able to invade the French territories J1, because the French capital (Paris) is generally in axis hands on G1 (invoking the Vichy rule bypassing the alliance).

I do still feel there are some short comings on bypassing the Maginot line through Holland, and not having those units available to capture Paris on G1. Maybe the intent was for Paris to fall on G2 instead of G1, but that doesn’t seem right either why would you wait? Two options have come up that basically give you a 3rd impulse.

1. (Garg) Allowing all units that attack Holland a second attack at the end of the 1st impulse. A special rule just for Holland, that would allow you to use units that attacked Holland to also clear Reims from the north, bypassing the Mag line. You then would have those same units available to participate in the 2nd impulse to attack Paris.

2. Allowing all mechanized units to participate in a second battle at the end of the 1st impulse (mech/tanks and air not involved in the first battle). This would do similar as above, but might have an effect on other battles as well.

3. A high bread of both 1 & 2 to allow only mechanizes units that attacked Holland to go on to a second battle in the 1st impulse. This would also allow you to use those units to clear Reims from the north in the first impulse (bypass the Mag line) and you could then NCM inf from W Germany into German occupied Reims for the Paris assault in the 2nd impuse. Might need to swap some inf in W Germany for mech/tanks in both options 2 & 3.

** Could also rule in for all 3 options that when attacking Reims G1 through Holland  (not coming through the Mag line) that all French units are caught off guard and def -1.

[americancyco]

I dont know if this is the correct/or best solution either but this is what my friends and I came up with.

We treat Dutch as a neutral, that turns pro allies if France falls.
We treat the DEI (for lack of a better name) as a FEC minor allie (sort of like German minor allies)
The DEI is only activated in one of two ways 1)They are attacked by an Axis power, Japan most likely or 2) The US goes to war with Japan.
Before they are activated, they are a strict neutral, that allied powers cannot enter.

This way if Japan picks a fight with them for that first attack, they are attacking a nautral nation and not declaring war on the FEC.  If they continue to fight with the FEC on any turn after they become a minor ally, then Japan would be declaring war on the FEC.  This gives Japan one turn to try and grab as much of the DEI as they can.

[Star of Africa]

Hi,

an other solution,

you can play, that The Dutch can produce with the half of its territory income (should be 18 [Holland + DEI]) in Holland.
So The Dutch can Produce with 9 IPC’s. So if I were Germany, I would attack Holland as early as possible.
The rest of Holland rules in 5.1 are ok.
In the rules, you can read, that Holland is not a Pro-Allied, it is an Allied, so the Dutch navy can be used together with e.g. ANZAC Navy, but not for attack, but for Protection.

[ancient history]

Another possible solution could arise if the map is ever redrawn. Please note that I am not suggesting the map be redrawn just to solve this problem.

However if the map does get changed at any point I suggest splitting Reims into two separate territories.  The northern territory would border Holland and the southern territory would border West Germany and Bavaria.  Then you could increase the fortifications for the southern territory.  This would seem to be the most elegant solution.

Another idea is to just increase the fortifications in Reims to encourage Germany to go into Holland. As a counter, since not every game should have this, if France falls but Holland was never invaded, Holland becomes a reluctant German ally.

The logic behind this is that Belgium and Holland were too intimidated to enter the war on the Allies side and thus risk fighting the war on their soil.  How much more intimidated would they have been with no allies on the continent and the knowledge that  Britain could not protect them?

Under such a scenario I would see Germany collecting all of the income and resources for all of Belgium/Holland. This would be detrimental to Japan and could prove interesting.